Are we born with a sin nature?

[for_his_glory]

It is about a sickness the boy had and not about any sins he had.

Actually it was all about demon possession as in Satan using his minions to posse this boy with the sickness of epilepsy. Satan's minions can posse those who are not in Christ. This is why Jesus rebuked Satan to come out of him just as he did with the man with many legions in Mark 5:1-20 to show that of Gods power over Satan that all can be released from sins bondage.

Mark 5:1-20 is the definitive passage on demon possession and its effects in the Bible. Some of the details about demons the Bible reveals in this passage are:

1. Devils want to be near dead human bodies or tombs (vs. 2, 3, 5).
2. They can cause unusual strength (vs. 3-4).
3. They can make a person unreasonable or immune to sensible persuasion (vs. 4).
4. They cause excessive crying (vs. 5).
5. They cause sadistic and masochistic behavior (vs. 5).
6. They have an affinity for heights (vs. 5).
7. They recognize Christ as "the Son of God" and appeal to Him (vs. 6-7).
8. They know they deserve torment and dread it (vs. 6-7).
9. They have names (vs. 9).
10. More than one can possess the same body (vs. 9).
11. They desire to stay in the same geographical region or "country" (vs. 10).
12. They would rather indwell an animal body than none at all (vs. 12).
13. They can cause animals to kill themselves (vs. 13).
14. They desire to be in a body when it dies (vs. 13).
15. They have a desire for water (vs. 13).

Mark 9:17-29 gives us even more details about devils:

16. They can cause dumbness and deafness (vs. 17, 25).
17. They cause rabid animal like behavior (vs. 18).
18. They can indwell from childhood (vs. 21).
19. They cause suicidal behavior (vs. 22).
20. They resist leaving a body and violently "rent" it while leaving (vs. 26).
21. There are different kinds of devils. Some have more power than others (vs. 29).
22. Some can only be removed by prayer and fasting of believer (vs. 29).

Ephesians 6:12 states Satan has a hierarchy of "devils" in his kingdom, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Thus some devils have more power and authority than others.

In Daniel 10:13 (as well as Mark 9:29) there is an example of this. "The prince of the kingdom of Persia" withstood the angel sent to explain Daniel's vision to him for 21 days. He could only break free when the angel Michael came and helped him overcome the powerful "prince." The "prince" may have been Satan, but more likely he was a very powerful devil.

 

[smaller]

Anyone knows the fact of sin as it's beginning was with Satan and then spread to all men/women, but not everyone knows that babies are conceived and born sinless, such as the case of God creating Adam and Eve sinless until sin was found in them.

The point will remain. Sin is never just about 'man' in any form, baby to adulthood, as prior noted.

That is the case you are trying to make. But your intented equation is missing quite a large component to the matters, that being Satan and devils.

There is zero way to rule out their intrustion into any FLESH at any AGE inclusive of the mind. That 'factual' activity transpires beyond flesh sight and is in fact 'unseen.'

Your insistence, as that of many, merely insists on seeing 'man' at any age apart from this working.

A basic foul.

Lucifer was created sinless until sin was found in him.

Another christian fairy tale. Satan per Jesus was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, created as A PERFECT DEVIL, as in 'perfect in ALL his WAYS.'

You wouldn't be the first one to read the he was perfect and forget about 'all his ways.'

s

 

[smaller]

Where does the CONTEXT say the child was a sinner?

What is it you don't get about A DEVIL and A CHILD being in the same location?

???

 

[elijah23]

I think when we are born, we have a clean slate. We make mistakes along the way. Sin is habit-forming, which makes it challenging to repent of our sin once we've started.

 

[for_his_glory]

The point will remain. Sin is never just about 'man' in any form, baby to adulthood, as prior noted.

That is the case you are trying to make. But your intented equation is missing quite a large component to the matters, that being Satan and devils.

There is zero way to rule out their intrustion into any FLESH at any AGE inclusive of the mind. That 'factual' activity transpires beyond flesh sight and is in fact 'unseen.'

Your insistence, as that of many, merely insists on seeing 'man' at any age apart from this working.

A basic foul.



Another christian fairy tale. Satan per Jesus was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, created as A PERFECT DEVIL, as in 'perfect in ALL his WAYS.'

You wouldn't be the first one to read the he was perfect and forget about 'all his ways.'

s

I thought I made that very clear in my first two paragraphs of the OP that Satan was the cause of all evil in the world. Lucifer’s name meant light bearer when he was created as he was a reflection of Gods brightness as one who had favor in the Lord. God changed his name to Satan, which means adversary, after he fell from heaven. God changed many names from one to another in the Bible to reflect his glory through them as a nation. Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways with beauty, wisdom and freewill. God placed him as the guardian or protector over the throne of God in heaven. He was entrusted with many possessions and found much favor in the Lord.
God created the earth and saw that it was good and he took Lucifer from Gods Holy Mountain and set him over the Garden of Eden as a covering cherub to watch over and enjoy all that was of God. As Lucifer was set in the garden iniquity was soon found in him as he defiled Gods sanctuary through pride in his own beauty and wisdom as he wanted all that was of Gods here on earth to be his own and violence soon filled his heart as he tried to make his throne above the angels and be God. Because iniquity was found in him God cast him and those angels who chose to follow him out of his holy mountain and cast them all down to earth to be trampled of all nations. The only reference in scripture that denotes there being one third of the angels falling with Satan is in Revelation 12:4.
(Ref: Read Ezekiel Chapter 28 Prince of Tyrus)

What part of this do you not understand. Lucifer created perfect, man created perfect and as in both because of Satan's iniquity that was later found in him after he was created was cast down to the earth and deceived man/women into sinning. Sin was found in all of them as even in all of us, but not until one is born into that which is a wicked world that eventually sin would be found in them.

 

[smaller]

I thought I made that very clear in my first two paragraphs of the OP that Satan was the cause of all evil in the world.

The observation put into view was that sin is intimately connected to a working unseen and is so 'in man.'

There is no way to measure that fact on anyone other than to say 'it happens' and does so regardless of age as it is not of the person or the age, but of that working power, unseen.

It will remain quite pointless to make any observations of or about sin apart from that fact.

As to the balance of your 'perfect' HOLY ANGEL Satan, that is not presented anywhere in the text.

s

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Anyone knows the fact of sin as it's beginning was with Satan and then spread to all men/women, but not everyone knows that babies are conceived and born sinless, such as the case of God creating Adam and Eve sinless until sin was found in them. Lucifer was created sinless until sin was found in him. Babies are created sinless until they enter a sinful world then sin is eventually found in them. What Paul is saying in 1Corinthians 15:42-44 is that this flesh is corruptible and will return to the dust of the ground corruptible. It is our soul, which makes up our fleshly nature that is corruptible, but our spirit, if we be in Christ when we die will be resurrected incorruptible as those who have died as dying a fleshly death are sown or laid in the ground as corruptible flesh which will rot away and it is our spirit that connects us to God that will be raised incorruptible.

In our natural body (flesh) we will be weak, corrupted and dishonor God until the day we die. That is why our spirit has to be Spiritually reunited (born-again) with God's Spirit through His free gift of grace made available to all people by that of His son Jesus Christ who through his life, death and resurrection gives hope to everyone who will make him Lord and Savior that we can be redeemed of this sinful flesh as we are made righteous again by God's righteousness that brings a renewal to our spirit made alive in Him.

1Co 15:35 But someone will say, How are the dead raised? And with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain, (it may be of wheat, or of some of the rest),
1Co 15:38 and God gives it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its own body.

Paul clearly says that the seed is given a body according to its kind.
The body is not what is sown, but the 'seed' and the 'seed' is corruptible, and it is 'sown' in dishonour and weakness, and God gives it (seed) its own body (flesh and blood)

So what is the seed, if it is not the body?

 

[rrowell]

I agree with you that God's creation was perfect which is to include man. That means that Adam was without sin. But just as creation was subject to corruption because of Adam's sin, so Adam's posterity inherits Adams sin by imputation. That's what Romans 5:18-19 say. Judgment came to all men through the one man's act of disobedience.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation...

- Davies

Davies,

Do you really see exactly what your are saying?

You are saying because of one mans disobedience all men are born sinners.

Since the rest of the verse is the contrast (opposite) then since the obedience of one man all men are born saved.

You know that is not right? you cannot add "born" to side without adding it to the other?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by for_his_glory,

Lucifer’s name meant light bearer when he was created as he was a reflection of Gods brightness as one who had favor in the Lord. God changed his name to Satan, which means adversary, after he fell from heaven. God changed many names from one to another in the Bible to reflect his glory through them as a nation. Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways with beauty, wisdom and freewill. God placed him as the guardian or protector over the throne of God in heaven. He was entrusted with many possessions and found much favor in the Lord.
God created the earth and saw that it was good and he took Lucifer from Gods Holy Mountain and set him over the Garden of Eden as a covering cherub to watch over and enjoy all that was of God.

The idea that Satan was once a "holy angel" who fell is as smaller says; it is yet another of man's false traditions that makes void the Word of God.


Who does Christ tell us is the original murderer?

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."


"How long has Satan been a murderer?" Did he start out as a good angel who went bad? What did Christ just tell us? What Christ has just told those with eyes to see, is: He ["Your father, the devil"] was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.


According to Genesis, the serpent was the most subtle of all of the 'beasts of the field', which the Lord God HAD MADE:

Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God HAD MADE."


Look at these verses:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and CREATE DARKNESS: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL these things."


God said: "I the Lord do all these things," such as: I CREATE EVIL; and I CREATE DARKNESS.


Look closely at these verses:

Job 26:13 "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the CROOKED SERPENT."

Isaiah 27:1 "In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that CROOKED SERPENT; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."



God tells us plainly that it was His hand which formed all things including EVIL as well as that CROOKED SERPENT.

Look at this verse:

Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I HAVE CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY."

And who is it that has come to destroy?

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING."

Ask yourself: When is 'from the beginning?'


Here is another revealing passage:

Proverbs 16:4 "The Lord has made ALL for Himself, Yes, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of doom."


Who has made THE WICKED?


The devil was 'a murderer from the beginning' (John 8:44). He was evil from his creation; there was nothing good in him and no truth in him.

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."




You say that Lucifer is Satan. This myth comes from Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. But this is yet another false tradition that is all due to a serious translation error in the King James:


Isaiah 14:11-12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the Morning!"(KJV)



The KJV is an erroneous translation. The proper translation is:

"What a fall from heaven on high O Shining star of the dawn!" (Moffat)

"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O Shining One, son of the dawn!" (Rotherham)

"How are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"(Amplified Bible)

(almost ALL translations translate this verse correctly)


The Hebrew is a transliteration of the word Shining star, Shining One, Light-bearer/day star.


There is only one place the word Lucifer appears in Scripture, and that is in Isaiah 14, and it is a translation error. What is the Hebrew word found in the manuscripts that the translators turned into the Latin word 'Lucifer?' The Strong's Concordance gives Lucifer AS a definition before it even goes to the Dictionary to define the meaning. Here is what you will find:

• Lucifer (lu’sif-ur) {1} Title applied to king of Babylon.
  
  
• This word is to be applied to the "king of Babylon," and NOT to SATAN THE DEVIL!

The word in question is:

• heylel, [halal] (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star: Lucifer.

Lucifer is the Latin Vulgate translation of the word "xosphoruos" in the Septuagint, which is a Greek version of the Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12, which the King James translators then translated over into the English as "Lucifer."

"Lucifer" is not a Hebrew word, nor is it an English translation of a Hebrew word. Lucifer is Latin, and is related to a group of Latin derived English words including lucid, luciferin and luciferose, all of which suggest brightness or shining.



Peter calls Jesus the Daystar in 2 Peter 1:19 and how He is to arise in our hearts. The Greek word is "phosphoros" and is translated as light-bearing or morning star. Our English word from the Greek is phosphorus. Phosphorus gives off its own light - hence: light-bearer.


Orthodoxy says that Isaiah ch. 14 is referring to Satan, and 'Lucifer' is the 'proper name' for Satan. This is simply artificial and contrived. It is false.



Orthodoxy says that IN THE BEGINNING Satan was perfect and sinless. But according to John, Satan's "beginning" was precisely the opposite:

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."


So does Jesus,

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"


John says the devil WAS A 'SINNER FROM THE BEGINNING!' Jesus says that the devil was a 'MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING'. Orthodoxy says that Jesus and John were wrong. Who will you believe?

 

[Davies]

Davies,

Do you really see exactly what your are saying?

You are saying because of one mans disobedience all men are born sinners.

Since the rest of the verse is the contrast (opposite) then since the obedience of one man all men are born saved.

You know that is not right? you cannot add "born" to side without adding it to the other?

Hi rrowell,

One of the benefits of saying things a few times is you really start to memorize where verses are. So, I take pleasure in reiterating what I have previously stated in other posts, but with not so many words.

Romans 5:16-17

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)


Everyone dies. This was because of the one man's offense. Here is why the statements are not the opposite, "those who receive." Then there are those who don't receive. This is a major difference between the imputation of sin, and the imputation of righteousness.

The debate is almost moot, because everyone sins and they are held accountable for it until they put their faith in Jesus Christ. Then we learn that Jesus is held accountable for our sin. That's not fair either, is it?

Unless you are willing to say that those of us born into Adam don't need salvation, you can't exclude our babies either.

Psalm 32:2

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit.



- Davies

 

[for_his_glory]

The observation put into view was that sin is intimately connected to a working unseen and is so 'in man.'

There is no way to measure that fact on anyone other than to say 'it happens' and does so regardless of age as it is not of the person or the age, but of that working power, unseen.

It will remain quite pointless to make any observations of or about sin apart from that fact.

As to the balance of your 'perfect' HOLY ANGEL Satan, that is not presented anywhere in the text.

s

So you chose to not believe what Ezekiel Chapter 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. I would suggest you read the whole chapter.

 

[for_his_glory]

1Co 15:35 But someone will say, How are the dead raised? And with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain, (it may be of wheat, or of some of the rest),
1Co 15:38 and God gives it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its own body.

Paul clearly says that the seed is given a body according to its kind.
The body is not what is sown, but the 'seed' and the 'seed' is corruptible, and it is 'sown' in dishonour and weakness, and God gives it (seed) its own body (flesh and blood)

So what is the seed, if it is not the body?

We are all given a body after our kind as in a fish will be a fish, a bird will be a bird and a human will be a human as neither one can become anything else as God has given each one a different body. Our seed is our soul which makes up our fleshly character. The soul (body/flesh) will die and go back to the dust of the ground as we die in a corruptible fleshly body and it is our spirit that has been Spiritually renewed, John 3:3, that Christ will resurrect incorruptible when he returns in the air to gather up his Bride. If you read all of 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 it is all explained there. The seed is our soul that has to die in order to see the kingdom of God as we grow in Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

The idea that Satan was once a "holy angel" who fell is as smaller says; it is yet another of man's false traditions that makes void the Word of God.


Who does Christ tell us is the original murderer?

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."


"How long has Satan been a murderer?" Did he start out as a good angel who went bad? What did Christ just tell us? What Christ has just told those with eyes to see, is: He ["Your father, the devil"] was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.


According to Genesis, the serpent was the most subtle of all of the 'beasts of the field', which the Lord God HAD MADE:

Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God HAD MADE."


Look at these verses:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and CREATE DARKNESS: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL these things."


God said: "I the Lord do all these things," such as: I CREATE EVIL; and I CREATE DARKNESS.


Look closely at these verses:

Job 26:13 "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the CROOKED SERPENT."

Isaiah 27:1 "In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that CROOKED SERPENT; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea."



God tells us plainly that it was His hand which formed all things including EVIL as well as that CROOKED SERPENT.

Look at this verse:

Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I HAVE CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY."

And who is it that has come to destroy?

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING."

Ask yourself: When is 'from the beginning?'


Here is another revealing passage:

Proverbs 16:4 "The Lord has made ALL for Himself, Yes, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of doom."


Who has made THE WICKED?


The devil was 'a murderer from the beginning' (John 8:44). He was evil from his creation; there was nothing good in him and no truth in him.

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."




You say that Lucifer is Satan. This myth comes from Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. But this is yet another false tradition that is all due to a serious translation error in the King James:


Isaiah 14:11-12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the Morning!"(KJV)



The KJV is an erroneous translation. The proper translation is:

"What a fall from heaven on high O Shining star of the dawn!" (Moffat)

"How hast thou fallen from heaven, O Shining One, son of the dawn!" (Rotherham)

"How are you fallen from heaven O light-bearer and day star, son of the morning!"(Amplified Bible)

(almost ALL translations translate this verse correctly)


The Hebrew is a transliteration of the word Shining star, Shining One, Light-bearer/day star.


There is only one place the word Lucifer appears in Scripture, and that is in Isaiah 14, and it is a translation error. What is the Hebrew word found in the manuscripts that the translators turned into the Latin word 'Lucifer?' The Strong's Concordance gives Lucifer AS a definition before it even goes to the Dictionary to define the meaning. Here is what you will find:

• Lucifer (lu’sif-ur) {1} Title applied to king of Babylon.
  
  
• This word is to be applied to the "king of Babylon," and NOT to SATAN THE DEVIL!

The word in question is:

• heylel, [halal] (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star: Lucifer.

Lucifer is the Latin Vulgate translation of the word "xosphoruos" in the Septuagint, which is a Greek version of the Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12, which the King James translators then translated over into the English as "Lucifer."

"Lucifer" is not a Hebrew word, nor is it an English translation of a Hebrew word. Lucifer is Latin, and is related to a group of Latin derived English words including lucid, luciferin and luciferose, all of which suggest brightness or shining.



Peter calls Jesus the Daystar in 2 Peter 1:19 and how He is to arise in our hearts. The Greek word is "phosphoros" and is translated as light-bearing or morning star. Our English word from the Greek is phosphorus. Phosphorus gives off its own light - hence: light-bearer.


Orthodoxy says that Isaiah ch. 14 is referring to Satan, and 'Lucifer' is the 'proper name' for Satan. This is simply artificial and contrived. It is false.



Orthodoxy says that IN THE BEGINNING Satan was perfect and sinless. But according to John, Satan's "beginning" was precisely the opposite:

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."


So does Jesus,

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"


John says the devil WAS A 'SINNER FROM THE BEGINNING!' Jesus says that the devil was a 'MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING'. Orthodoxy says that Jesus and John were wrong. Who will you believe?

Then I will say the same to you also, have you never read Ezekiel Chapter 28 especially verse 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. How can one argue against this verse.

 

[smaller]

So you chose to not believe what Ezekiel Chapter 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. I would suggest you read the whole chapter.

Jesus told us exactly the condition of the DEVIL from the beginning. It was never a question of an Holy Angel going bad from making some bad decisions:

John 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Those are the PERFECT WAYS of the DEVIL. The term 'perfection' has little if anything to do with PERFECTION as in PERFECT other than PERFECTLY EVIL.

As it pertains to this topic the 'whole world' is presently immersed in the mystery of iniquity. It is in fact an unseen working, therefore termed a mystery.

All of us, adults, babies, everything in our present deteriorating world are in fact quite immersed into this working of EVIL.

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Yet God has chosen HIS LIGHT to SHINE from the midst this present darkness.

Asking then if babies are 'sinners' is quite a simplistic notion. It is perhaps a little more complex than to merely see babies as that is not an 'encompassing' view of sin or evil.

When discussing matters of sin and evil, those present powers and 'entities' that extend upon the whole world must be firmly in view.

Do I see evil babies? Uh, no. God saves them all. They like us however all have the same issues when it comes to the present working of the mystery of iniquity which is not 'divided' out upon any individual in particular, but upon every individual when we consider the larger picture.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree with you that God's creation was perfect which is to include man. That means that Adam was without sin. But just as creation was subject to corruption because of Adam's sin, so Adam's posterity inherits Adams sin by imputation. That's what Romans 5:18-19 say. Judgment came to all men through the one man's act of disobedience.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation...

- Davies

But nowhere in Rom 5 or elsewhere does Paul say the judgment came because man inherited Adam's sin, that idea is assumed into the text.

Romans 5:18 "(a)So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; (b)even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life".



"All men" in both (a) and (b) of the verse refer to the same people. So if "all men" were unconditionally condemned by inheriting Adam's sin then that exact same 'all men' will unconditionally receive justification through Christ. And this mis-interpretation creates Universalism.

Yet Paul's point is that "all men" have received both condemnation and justification. The condemnation comes conditionally when one sins as justification comes condtianlly when one obeys. Tts 2:11 God's grace that saves has appeared to all men but all men will not be saved for man must conditionally obey God to receive that grace. That grace does not just unconditionally save all men. Likewise men are not just unconditionally condemned just for being born. As one commentator said of this verse "Paul asserts that the benefits of the death of Christ are available to as many who are also affected by the fact that sin was introduced into the world. One becomes a sinner or walks in the footsteps of Adam in the same basic way that one becomes a Christian and walks in the footsteps of Christ, that is, both are the result of human freewill. We choose to go into sin and we can choose to come out of it."
So not only does this verse NOT teach man has been given uncondtionally a sinful nature, it also refutes the idea of limited atonement. Christ died for all men that have been affected by sin ever since sin entered the world through Adam.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest,

I quote myself (straightening wig), "One act brought death to all, but the other brought life to those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness." Now where is this teaching universalism? I would say that death through Adam is universal. This wasn't the case for Jesus because he did not have an earthly father, so He doesn't inherit the sinful nature. But the gift of life is not universal because it is conditional based on if we receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.

Would you tell me there are people out there who don't need the blood of Jesus applied to them? I don't think so. Babies are born in Adam; they are not born in Christ, and they need the blood of Jesus applied to them just as much as any of us do.

- Davies

Romans 5:18 "So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life".

Again, "all men" appears twice in this verse and it refers to the same people both times. So if by Adam transgressing condemnation unconditionally came to "all men" then by Christ's obedience justification unconditionally comes to that same "all men". If the first part of the verse is true then second part of the verse is true also.

Yet you just want the first part of the verse to say condemnation came to 'all men' unconditionally through inheriting Adam's sin but do not want the second part of the verse to say justification comes to that same 'all men' uncondtionally through Christ. And therein lies the inconsistency with this interpretation you have of this verse.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually it was all about demon possession as in Satan using his minions to posse this boy with the sickness of epilepsy. Satan's minions can posse those who are not in Christ. This is why Jesus rebuked Satan to come out of him just as he did with the man with many legions in Mark 5:1-20 to show that of Gods power over Satan that all can be released from sins bondage.

Mark 5:1-20 is the definitive passage on demon possession and its effects in the Bible. Some of the details about demons the Bible reveals in this passage are:

1. Devils want to be near dead human bodies or tombs (vs. 2, 3, 5).
2. They can cause unusual strength (vs. 3-4).
3. They can make a person unreasonable or immune to sensible persuasion (vs. 4).
4. They cause excessive crying (vs. 5).
5. They cause sadistic and masochistic behavior (vs. 5).
6. They have an affinity for heights (vs. 5).
7. They recognize Christ as "the Son of God" and appeal to Him (vs. 6-7).
8. They know they deserve torment and dread it (vs. 6-7).
9. They have names (vs. 9).
10. More than one can possess the same body (vs. 9).
11. They desire to stay in the same geographical region or "country" (vs. 10).
12. They would rather indwell an animal body than none at all (vs. 12).
13. They can cause animals to kill themselves (vs. 13).
14. They desire to be in a body when it dies (vs. 13).
15. They have a desire for water (vs. 13).

Mark 9:17-29 gives us even more details about devils:

16. They can cause dumbness and deafness (vs. 17, 25).
17. They cause rabid animal like behavior (vs. 18).
18. They can indwell from childhood (vs. 21).
19. They cause suicidal behavior (vs. 22).
20. They resist leaving a body and violently "rent" it while leaving (vs. 26).
21. There are different kinds of devils. Some have more power than others (vs. 29).
22. Some can only be removed by prayer and fasting of believer (vs. 29).

Ephesians 6:12 states Satan has a hierarchy of "devils" in his kingdom, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Thus some devils have more power and authority than others.

In Daniel 10:13 (as well as Mark 9:29) there is an example of this. "The prince of the kingdom of Persia" withstood the angel sent to explain Daniel's vision to him for 21 days. He could only break free when the angel Michael came and helped him overcome the powerful "prince." The "prince" may have been Satan, but more likely he was a very powerful devil.

Mt 7:15 "Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick,...and the child was cured from that very hour. " Matt 4:23,24

The boy was cured of some type of physical affliction and nothing to do with any sins the boy had.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What is it you don't get about A DEVIL and A CHILD being in the same location?

???

You are ASSUMING the boy had sins, when being posssessed with a devil was a physical afflicition and nothing to do with sins. "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." The kingdom of heaven is not made up of sinners.

 

[smaller]

You are ASSUMING the boy had sins, when being posssessed with a devil

Uh, no, that was not the point whatsoever EB.

The point of fact will remain, that discussions of sin are not just about 'man' or 'babies.'

Jesus showed us all quite clearly that there are in fact 'other parties' involved in matters of sin.

s

 

[Davies]

Romans 5:18 "So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life".

Again, "all men" appears twice in this verse and it refers to the same people both times. So if by Adam transgressing condemnation unconditionally came to "all men" then by Christ's obedience justification unconditionally comes to that same "all men". If the first part of the verse is true then second part of the verse is true also.

Yet you just want the first part of the verse to say condemnation came to 'all men' unconditionally through inheriting Adam's sin but do not want the second part of the verse to say justification comes to that same 'all men' uncondtionally through Christ. And therein lies the inconsistency with this interpretation you have of this verse.

I've explained the gift of the one is different then the gift of the other, I think, two or three times now. Why do I feel like that is being ignored?

Romans 5:17

New King James Version (NKJV)

17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)


Not everyone receives abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. Verse 17 explains the gift of righteousness is not universal and puts into context verse 18. But for those who do receive the gift of righteousness, then that righteousness is universal between them.

Oh, good morning Ernest.

- Davies