Are we born with a sin nature?

[OldJesushippie]

Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

You and I are "the creature". It was our Creator who "made [Adam and us] subject to vanity". Was that the result of Adam's fabled 'free will"? Absolutely not. God knew before He ever created Adam that he (and we) would need a Savior. So we are told, "NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope".

I'd appreciate an explanation of how you reached the conclusion that God "made Adam subject to vanity". This is something that isn't found in the teachings of the Church Fathers. It isn't even found in the teachings of Augustine (the author of the "born sinful" doctrine).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest,

The newly conceived have done nothing good nor anything bad. Though we disagree with the sin nature being passed down, there still remains a problem. Though the newly conceived haven't done anything wrong, they haven't done anything right. They have no righteousness. I believe that because of their inability to discern, God imputes His righteousness to them, the same way He imputes His righteousness to us. Because we can discern right and wrong, we are required to put our faith in Jesus. We need not only our sins forgiven, we need to be righteous, and our righteousness doesn't get it done.

- Davies

Rom 9:11 shows they have done no good or evil. So they are neither righteous nor sinners...they are neutral. One CANNOT be a sinner who has not sinned. And the newly conceived are not capable of sinning. John said sin is transgression of the law and there is no law the newly conceived have transgressed, they cannot lie, cannot steal, cannot commit adultery, etc.

So one is not a sinner until he sins and one is not righteous until he does God's righteousness. And no one has yet to name a transgression the newly conceived have committed that make them sinners.

You post "they haven't done anything right. They have no righteousness".

I agree they have done no good, Rom 9:11 done no righteousness so they are not righteous. Yet at the same time they have done no sin yet you want to call them sinners. So if they are not righteous for they have done no righteousness then likewise they are not sinners for they have done so sin. It works both ways. They have done no righteousness or unrighteousness so they are neutral and remain that way until they sin or do righteousness.

 

[Davies]

Rom 9:11 shows they have done no good or evil. So they are neither righteous nor sinners...they are neutral. One CANNOT be a sinner who has not sinned. And the newly conceived are not capable of sinning. John said sin is transgression of the law and there is no law the newly conceived have transgressed, they cannot lie, cannot steal, cannot commit adultery, etc.

So one is not a sinner until he sins and one is not righteous until he does God's righteousness. And no one has yet to name a transgression the newly conceived have committed that make them sinners.

You post "they haven't done anything right. They have no righteousness".

I agree they have done no good, Rom 9:11 done no righteousness so they are not righteous. Yet at the same time they have done no sin yet you want to call them sinners. So if they are not righteous for they have done no righteousness then likewise they are not sinners for they have done so sin. It works both ways. They have done no righteousness or unrighteousness so they are neutral and remain that way until they sin or do righteousness.

Good morning Ernest,

A neutral person doesn't deserve to go to Heaven.

- Davies

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Let's get clear on one item. Even though 'all' people are born into the factual state of dishonor, corruption, weakness and a natural body this does by no means equate to God in Christ not saving children.

Jesus was abundantly clear in His command to, in effect, suffer the children to come unto Him and 'forbid them not.' The 'forbid them not' statement is as a reminder for our ears.

No verse says God created man corrupt. God created man upright and man corrupted himself.

You seem to believe that somehow people's choices as adults makes them potentially sinless.

Jesus in the flesh was sinless for He chose not to sin but instead chose to do the will of His Father that sent Him.

That is not the case with children or adults

.

You continue to make no account to what the 'flesh' is subject to and that is the entrance of the tempter deceiver therein at ANY AGE.

Matters of sin are not merely questions of mankind or of flesh. There are factually 'other parties involved.'

Because these are unseen 'believers' tend to overlook that fact in 'all' their judgments about 'sin' or 'choices.'

The minds of children are just as blinded by the 'god of this world' as any other unbelieving mind, and that condition persists until 'belief.'

s

The flesh is subject to temptation and man chooses to either give in to the temptaton or not. BUt that is a far cry from saying God created man so corrupt where man cannot do anything but choose to sin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I did a deeper study in Psalms 51:5 and Romans 5:12-21 and even though we are conceived and born into a world where sin that was brought about by one man, Adam, now makes all of us a sinner at some point in time and only when sin is revealed to us do we become a sinner needing that of Gods grace. The law revealed sin in us and grace pardons our sins with that of Gods righteousness that makes us come from Spiritual death unto that Spiritual life through Christ. Adam did not die physically as we know he lived to be around 903 years old. It was a Spiritual death that Adam died in as in all of us because of his disobedience and that of ours.

(Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.)
I was formed (shapened) in my mother’s womb as I was conceived in that of my mother living in a sinful world and delivered to that of a sinful world, but iniquity was not found in me until the laws of sin were revealed to me did I also become a sinner as even I grew to transgress the law.

Romans 5:
(12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
Well then, sin entered the world through one man and through sin Spiritual death and thus Spiritual death has spread through the whole human race because everyone has sinned.

(13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.)
Even though sin is in the world by that of one mans disobedience it is not imputed (us making a mistake) in us until it is revealed to us by now God's law, but the former by His prophets up until the time of Moses. We, no matter what age in or out of the womb, are innocent until we are taught that of what we are transgressing in the law is sin. This is why Jesus said in Matthew 19: 14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Other words it is the innocent that the kingdom of God belongs to.

(14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.)
Sin existed in the world long before the Law was given. There was no law from the time of Adam to Moses so no one could be accused of the sin of lawbreaking. Yet Spiritual death reigned over all from Adam to Moses even though their sin, unlike that of Adam, was not a matter of breaking a law.

(15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.)
Adam prefigured the One to come, but the gift itself considerably outweighed the fall. If it is certain that through one mans fall so many Spiritually died, it is even more certain that divine grace coming through the One man, Christ Jesus, came to so many as an abundant free gift.

(16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.)
The results of the free gift also outweigh the results of one man's sin for after one single fall came judgment with a verdict of condemnation now after many falls comes grace with its verdict of acquittal.

(17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
If it is certain that Spiritual death reigned over everyone as the consequence of one man's fall it is even more certain that One man, Christ Jesus, will cause everyone to reign in life who receives the free gift that he does not deserve of being made righteous.

(18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.)
Again, as one mans' fall brought condemnation on everyone so the good act of One man, Christ Jesus, brings everyone to life and makes them justified.

(19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.)
As by one man's disobedience many were made sinners so by One man's, Christ Jesus, obedience many will be made righteous.

(20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound
When law came it was to multiply the opportunities of falling, but however great the number of sins committed grace was even greater.

(21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.)
Just as sin reigned wherever their was Spiritual death so grace will reign to bring eternal life thanks to the righteousness that comes through Christ Jesus our Lord.

..and I do not see in a single verse you posted here that says man is born inheriting Adam's sin or that man is born with a totally depraved nature.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The Scriptures do not say "the vessel MARRED HIMSELF by sinning." They specifically say "the vessel [ADAM]" was "MARRED in the HAND OF THE POTTER":

Jer 18 does not say the potter made-forced the clay to mar, so your argument is gone right there. The clay marred on its own.

A person mars himself by sinning therefore God does not make the person to be marred/sinner against his will.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree with the last three posts. Davies, For His Glory, and Osgiliath. While Children have done nothing wrong, they have also done nothing right.

Since they have done no good or evil, Rom 11:9 that means they are neutral. Just as one cannot be righteous until he does God's righteousness one cannot be a sinner until he does unrighteousness/sin.

 

[smaller]

No verse says God created man corrupt. God created man upright and man corrupted himself.

Stated multiple times to you EB, that it is basically impossible to view matters of sin on an external basis. Jesus showed us for example that 'thoughts' of adultery are for a fact 'adultery' in heart (Matt. 5:28 if you don't know the text) and that evil originates within the heart. (will cite the texts if you don't know them.)

Is evil and sin then merely based on an external view in actions? Uh, no. It's not possible to take that kind of measure.

You are welcome to get around to address these observations at some point. So far you've come up dry so to speak on seeing 'evil' or even 'sin' as originating 'internally' as 'within' the heart first.

Jesus in the flesh was sinless for He chose not to sin but instead chose to do the will of His Father that sent Him.

I accept that exception to the rule. Yes, Jesus was Thee Sole Exception to this matter.

None else were or are.

The flesh is subject to temptation and man chooses to either give in to the temptaton or not. BUt that is a far cry from saying God created man so corrupt where man cannot do anything but choose to sin.

Have also pointed out numerous times that it is scripturally impossible to view matters of sin apart from the DEVIL.

It is again quite utterly pointless to see 'only man' inclusive of 'babies' apart from the workings of internal evil and deception which is in fact an origination of the devil.

Whatever choice you might think you make, the fact is that choices of SIN, even in their originations internally are in fact a source of temptation of the tempter within.

Categorically this places man as not only 'man' alone, but also as a working of other 'powers/entities' that operate 'within' man.

The New Testament is filled with these types of examples:

Matt. 17:
14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.


Was that devil internal? Yes.


Could that devil be seen with flesh eyes? No.


Was that child alone there in his flesh? No.


Get the picture here yet?


Matters of sin, which DEVILS certainly are EVIL SINNERS, are not just matters of MANKIND alone or children alone.


There is zero way to discount this working in anyone, inclusive of ANY BABY.


It is only because believers can NOT see the obvious in these matters that such poor judgments are noted.



s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

You and I are "the creature". It was our Creator who "made [Adam and us] subject to vanity". Was that the result of Adam's fabled 'free will"? Absolutely not. God knew before He ever created Adam that he (and we) would need a Savior. So we are told, "NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope".


God created Adam "marred in the Potter's hand", and had already made provision for Adam's sins by the sacrifice of His own Son. And this was all done and ordained by God "before the world began".

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."

Eccl 7:29 God made man upright and the bible does not contradict itself. In Rom 8:20 there is much debate over what Paul meant. SInce God made man upright I see it that Paul is saying creation was subject to vanity as a result of the sinning of man. When God created the world it was "good", Eden was a perfect utopia. Yet when man sin that subjected the creation, not of its own will, to earthquakes, hurricanes and other natural disasters. Man became subjected to physical death.

Have You Considered The Consequences Of Sin?

By Wayne Jackson

The theme of “sin” dominates the Bible. There are at least eight different terms in the Hebrew Old Testament reflecting some aspect of sin, e.g., “bad,” “wickedness,” “iniquity,” etc. Some thirteen different words in the New Testament similarly depict various shades of sin, e.g., “evil,” “unrighteousness,” “transgression,” etc. (cf. Pfeiffer, 2003, 1594-95).

Sin has left a deadly legacy upon our earth and its inhabitants as we subsequently shall demonstrate. It must be noted initially, however, that “sin” does not exist in a vacuum. Satan was the initial sinner (1 John 3:8; cf. John 8:44), and he seduced our original parents (Genesis 3:6-8). A corruption of the planet earth followed—first with the Edenic curse (3:16-19), later with the devastating Flood of Noah’s day (Genesis 6-8). Additionally, death became the common plague of all biological life (Genesis 2:17; Romans 5:12; 6:23). Because of human rebellion, the entire “creation” was subjected to the “bondage of corruption” (Romans 8:20-21).

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1554-have-you-considered-the-consequences-of-sin




Sources/Footnotes

• Edersheim, Alfred. Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans. 1947.
• Edwards, Tryon. A Dictionary of Thoughts. Detroit: F. B. Dickerson Co. 1901.
• Hiebert, D. Edmond. The Thessalonian Epistles. Chicago: Moody. 1971.
• Jastrow, Robert. Until the Sun Dies. New York: Warner Books. 1977.
• Kramer, Samuel Noah. History Begins at Sumer. Garden City, NY: Doubleday. 1959.
• McMillen, S. I. None of These Diseases. Westwood, NJ: Revell. 1963.
• Pfeiffer, Charles; Howard Vos; John Rea, eds. Wycliffe Bible Dictionary. Peabody, MA. 2003.
• Rehwinkel, Alfred. The Flood. St. Louis: Concordia. 1951.

There is no verse that says God created Adam marred. Again where in Jer 18 does it say the Potter made/forced the clay to mar just so it can be made into a vessel of dishonor? Jer 18:8,10 and 2 Tim 2:20-21 say otherwise.

 

[reba]

I don't know how the smiley faces got in there as I did not put them there so please ignore them.

They "get there" via punctuation. : ) so if your coping then pasting they surprise us with a smile

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Good morning Ernest,

A neutral person doesn't deserve to go to Heaven.

- Davies

...according to who?

The newly conceived are in a neutral, safe condition and should they die as new borns God will take care of them. The same would be true of those with severe mental handicaps who are not capblable of understanding the word of God and therefore not capable to obey it.

In the 23rd Psalms David prophectically said he would dwell in the house of the Lord forever. Yet when his infant son died David said he son would not return to him but he must go to his son. So David's infant son would have been taken care of by God and was waiting on David to die and be with him in the house of the Lord forever.

 

[for_his_glory]

I hope you folks don't mind a new member jumping in here. I spent about an hour reading through the 259 posts in this thread. I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I saw a lot of Bible verses thrown around, yet no critical discussion about the texts themselves. Particularly from the proponents of the doctrine of an inherited sin nature. I don't see how any of the passages cited as evidence for the doctrine imply it when examined exegetically.

I'd love to discuss specifics. If you don't mind, I'd like to start with Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies." (ESV) In this psalm, David is lamenting the corruption of unjust rulers and judges. He is also drawing a contrast between the wicked and the righteous. (verses 10-11). Verse 3 is talking specifically about the wicked. Notice that David is not claiming (in this psalm) that all men are wicked. Some readers may extrapolate that concept from passages found elsewhere, but that isn't the topic of this psalm.
Additionally, the psalm is poetic. It cannot be taken "literally". That would have newborn children speaking: something that is impossible. On top of that it says they "go astray". Go astray from what? If they are born sinful, wouldn't that mean that they are going astray from a sinful condition?

Thank you for letting me jump in. I look forward to some fruitful discussion.

Hi OldJesushippie. Welcome to the discussion. It is a long one to sort through when one comes into the middle of it all.

Now, for Psalms 58:3 there are two key words, estranged and astray. Estranged means one who from the womb is innocent of sin until they are born into a sinful world and go astray (sin). When we are a baby we are influenced by the sin that is already in the word. As a small child that is learning how to talk will repeat that of what they hear, but yet have no true understanding of what they speak as they mimic that of words spoken by those around them. It's the same with thoughts we soon develop in our youth that produces thoughts of the mind and carry out those thoughts in our actions of what the mouth will speak or what the hands will do, even if we yet have no knowledge of good or evil. Who taught us how to speak lies when we were young, no one as it was a thought in our mind to speak a lie, but when correction comes then we have knowledge that we did lie and when we know that of something that is good or something that is evil is when we go astray from the innocence of our youth. This is why Jesus said suffer not little children to come unto to me for theirs is the kingdom of heaven as a child is yet innocent until sin is revealed to them.

 

[BornAgain]

Good morning Ernest,

A neutral person doesn't deserve to go to Heaven.

- Davies

Who is one who say's another "deserves" to go to heaven and to determine a "neutral" nature.

Neutrual:

adjective

1. not taking part or giving assistance in a dispute or war between others:

2. not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy: The arbitrator was absolutely neutral.

3. of or belonging to a neutral state or party: neutral territory.


James 2:12 (KJV)
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

That by which all men are to be judged is "a law of liberty." It is a law (a rule of action);

(b) a law of liberty, in that it leads to liberty for those formerly enslaved by sin.

For the significance of the word law, see comments on James 1:25. The "law of liberty" is the same as the gospel, "the word" James 1:21 and the "word of good tidings" 1 Pet 1:25.

Those who humbly submit their wills to Christ, and who become obedient to the principles contained in the law of God.

So we are born with this understanding?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Stated multiple times to you EB, that it is basically impossible to view matters of sin on an external basis. Jesus showed us for example that 'thoughts' of adultery are for a fact 'adultery' in heart (Matt. 5:28 if you don't know the text) and that evil originates within the heart. (will cite the texts if you don't know them.)

Is evil and sin then merely based on an external view in actions? Uh, no. It's not possible to take that kind of measure.

You are welcome to get around to address these observations at some point. So far you've come up dry so to speak on seeing 'evil' or even 'sin' as originating 'internally' as 'within' the heart first.


I accept that exception to the rule. Yes, Jesus was Thee Sole Exception to this matter.

None else were or are.



Have also pointed out numerous times that it is scripturally impossible to view matters of sin apart from the DEVIL.

It is again quite utterly pointless to see 'only man' inclusive of 'babies' apart from the workings of internal evil and deception which is in fact an origination of the devil.

Whatever choice you might think you make, the fact is that choices of SIN, even in their originations internally are in fact a source of temptation of the tempter within.

Categorically this places man as not only 'man' alone, but also as a working of other 'powers/entities' that operate 'within' man.

The New Testament is filled with these types of examples:

Matt. 17:
14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.


Was that devil internal? Yes.


Could that devil be seen with flesh eyes? No.


Was that child alone there in his flesh? No.


Get the picture here yet?


Matters of sin, which DEVILS certainly are EVIL SINNERS, are not just matters of MANKIND alone or children alone.


There is zero way to discount this working in anyone, inclusive of ANY BABY.


It is only because believers can NOT see the obvious in these matters that such poor judgments are noted.



s

You can say multiple times God created man corrupt contrary to Eccl 7:29 but there is no verse for you to back that up. If God created man corrupt then that puts blame and culpabilty on God for man's sins and man has no accountability for his own sins.

The man with one talent tried to blame his actions on God by calling God a "hard man" Matt 25:24 According to some here the one talent man could only do as God created him to do so he would have been JUSTIFIED in blaming God for his actions for God caused him against his own will to bury his one talent. But then we have God punishing this man by casting him into outer darkness for doing what God caused him to do. God does not cause men to sin just so God can have the pleasure of punishing him, Eze 33:11

Yet the man of his own will chose to bury his one talent and God had no culpability in it so the idea of OS and totally depravity should be rejected for putting blame and culpability of mans' sins upon God.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By Ernest T. Bass,

There is no verse that says God created Adam marred.

Romans 8:20 "For THE CREATURE was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but BY REASON OF HIM who hath subjected the same in hope."

What "creature" was Paul referring to; Sasquatch?


Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

What "vessel" was Jeremiah referring to; The Enterprise?

 

[OldJesushippie]

Thank you for the greeting, and for engaging me in the discussion of Psalm 58:3.
Estranged actually refers to a separation in a relationship. It implies that at one time there was a relationship, but that the relationship has fallen apart.

However, what is most important about the verse is that the context is not refering to a sinful condition with which all people are born. The psalm is specifically contrasting the wicked against the righteous. Verse 3 is part of David's "rant" (to modernize the term) against unjust rulers and judges. He's using poetic imagery to support his case that they aren't just "good" people who have made some bad rulings. He is saying that these specific wicked men are corrupt to the very core of their beings.

It isn't a generalized statement about all of mankind. It can't be taken as such, either, because that is not he message of the psalm.

edit: This is in response to "for_his_glory".

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Who is one who say's another "deserves" to go to heaven and to determine a "neutral" nature.

Neutrual:

adjective

1. not taking part or giving assistance in a dispute or war between others:

2. not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy: The arbitrator was absolutely neutral.

3. of or belonging to a neutral state or party: neutral territory.


James 2:12 (KJV)
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

That by which all men are to be judged is "a law of liberty." It is a law (a rule of action);

(b) a law of liberty, in that it leads to liberty for those formerly enslaved by sin.

For the significance of the word law, see comments on James 1:25. The "law of liberty" is the same as the gospel, "the word" James 1:21 and the "word of good tidings" 1 Pet 1:25.

Those who humbly submit their wills to Christ, and who become obedient to the principles contained in the law of God.

So we are born with this understanding?

Hey!

Their argument seems to be one cannot be righteous having done no good but yet somehow one can be a sinner having done no sin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 8:20 "For THE CREATURE was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but BY REASON OF HIM who hath subjected the same in hope."

What "creature" was Paul referring to; Sasquatch?


Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

What "vessel" was Jeremiah referring to; The Enterprise?

In Rom 8:20 there is much debate over what Paul meant. SInce God made man upright I see it that Paul is saying creation was subject to vanity as a result of the sinning of man. When God created the world it was "good", Eden was a perfect utopia. Yet when man sin that subjected the creation, not of its own will, to earthquakes, hurricanes and other natural disasters. Man became subjected to physical death.

Have You Considered The Consequences Of Sin?

By Wayne Jackson

The theme of “sin” dominates the Bible. There are at least eight different terms in the Hebrew Old Testament reflecting some aspect of sin, e.g., “bad,” “wickedness,” “iniquity,” etc. Some thirteen different words in the New Testament similarly depict various shades of sin, e.g., “evil,” “unrighteousness,” “transgression,” etc. (cf. Pfeiffer, 2003, 1594-95).

Sin has left a deadly legacy upon our earth and its inhabitants as we subsequently shall demonstrate. It must be noted initially, however, that “sin” does not exist in a vacuum. Satan was the initial sinner (1 John 3:8; cf. John 8:44), and he seduced our original parents (Genesis 3:6-8). A corruption of the planet earth followed—first with the Edenic curse (3:16-19), later with the devastating Flood of Noah’s day (Genesis 6-8). Additionally, death became the common plague of all biological life (Genesis 2:17; Romans 5:12; 6:23). Because of human rebellion, the entire “creation” was subjected to the “bondage of corruption” (Romans 8:20-21).

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1554-have-you-considered-the-consequences-of-sin

So how are you going to fix the contradiction you have created between Rom 8:20 and Eccl 7:29???

___________________________________________________________

2 Tim 2:20 "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour."

2 Tim 2:21 "If a man therefore purge himself from these,he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work."

The type of vessel a man is fashioned into depends on whether the man purges himself of sins or not, that is, whether he obeys God or not. God does not just randomly fashion men into vessels of honor or dishonor unconditonally for man must condtionally purge himself to be a vessel of honor.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Jer 18:6 "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."

Jer 18:7 "[At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it];"

Jer 18:8 " If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. "

Jer 18:10 "If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. "

Note in verses 8 and 10 God did not form them randomly or unconditionally but it depended if they obey by repenting and turning from their evil as to how they woud be fashioned by God.


______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Jonah 3:4 "And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. "

Yet God did not destroy Nineveh (make them vessels of dishonor) in 40 days. Why?

Jn 3:8 " But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that [is] in their hands. "

Jonah 3:9 "Who can tell [if] God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? "

Jonah 3:10 "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not. "


THe people of Nineveh were not dealt with in some random, unconditional way, but how God dealt with them depended if they obeyed God or not.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By Ernest T. Bass,

Their argument seems to be one cannot be righteous having done no good but yet one can be a sinner having done no sin.

Now you're using your noggin!

Keep thinking along those lines, and (slowly) read the whole book of Romans today, and I think you'll be on your way.

One correction, one cannot be righteous not only "having done no good," but also "having done no evil" as well:

Romans 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth."


Ephesians 2:2 "Wherein in time past ye [all of mankind] walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of OUR FLESH, fulfilling the desires of THE FLESH and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, EVEN as others."


That is what the scriptures teach concerning "We all." We all are by nature children of God's wrath, simply because we all were created "marred in the hand of the Potter" as "children of disobedience...by nature the children of wrath."

 

[for_his_glory]

..and I do not see in a single verse you posted here that says man is born inheriting Adam's sin or that man is born with a totally depraved nature.

That's because we do not inherit Adams sin as it is his sin alone he had to repent of just as we have to repent of our sins when it is revealed to us. A baby is conceived and born sinless until sin is recognized and found in them.