Are we born with a sin nature?

[smaller]

Spiritual matters are not measured or gauged by DNA or genetics.

Neither are these matters:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Science certainly doesn't have a 'handle' on these matters.

From a 'christian' perspective these are what may be termed 'thought' impetus matters.

The 'struggle' with the above forces are a large part of what 'sin' is. It is quite pointless to look at man or child 'alone' in these equations as that is not the case the scriptures make.

We do not see for example, the Word, Living and Active. That fact is not measurable or even controllable by 'man' alone.

Neither are the 'working's' of sin in origination, measurable. It is presented in text as a progressive matter that originates 'in heart' via the thought realm and progresses through stages of word and eventually deed.

Men see it 'after the fact' only in word or deed. Jesus points to this as a deeper matter, unseen in origination.

David 'exemplified' this same matter here:

1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

We can not say any human mind, even a child's mind, has no thought, the mind being 'active.' Neither can we say that any such mind does not come into adversity and contentions with the above mentioned powers, principalities, spiritual wickedness and rulers of the darkness.

It is never a question of 'man' or 'child' alone.

Jesus shows us that it is not 'only man' that is moved 'into actions' adverse where The Word is sown:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

This is in fact an operation unseen to which mankind is currently in 'subjection' to.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Paul links this matter directly to the 'prince of the power of the air,' the 'spirit' of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

s

 

[smaller]

LoL, you the same as said "the devil made me do it", show me one place in the Bible where the devil ever "made" anyone do his will, that man did not "have a choice" to not do the will of the devil, show me one.

The continuing observation Mr. rr is that 'sin' is not a matter of MAN or CHILD alone.

The devil does what the devil does and does so IN MAN.

Is this a difficult concept for you to grasp?

?

s

 

[Davies]

Hi Davies,

So where in the fallowing verse you quoted does it say anything about Adam?

Psalm 32:2 (NKJV)
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit.

Hi rrowell,

Your right. Adam isn't mentioned in Psalm 32:2, but Romans 5:18 does along with surrounding verses. I do understand we don't agree on what Romans 5 says.

I hope you had a nice Sunday. At church today, our Pastor covered Matthew 28. It was a very uplifting sermon as the majority of it was spent on the resurrection of Jesus.

- Davies

 

[Davies]

It is very involved, but it brings up the point that the imputation of sin is not some scientific genetic inheritance alone, nor is it illustrative alone, nor have certain attempts to resolve it to singular modern views of inheritance been successful when compared with what Scripture says.

It does explain that you have to go really shallow with Scripture to conclude that the Adamic sinfulness is a figurative or poetic thing. It circles around Romans 5, but others of Paul's statements rely on the comprehensive sinfulness of humankind: Romans 3 for example. Murray often notes that if you "take" the imputation of Adam's sin figuratively, the corresponding application of Jesus' righteousness becomes figurative -- and that makes it noncomprehensive and reasonably as ineffective as the imputation of Adam's sin to all humanity: a shallowing of Christ's work on the Cross that is simply rejected by Paul elsewhere (e.g. 1 Cor 15).

The pieces that I learned from it were theologically, covenantal and federal representation - that is, familial inheritance, not specifically genetic. Murray pointed out, there definitely is a genetic inheritance that factors into the imputation of sin as well. That's generally due to the profoundness of the relationship we have destroyed - a relationship that reaches into our very creational being is not a simple defection. However, it is not the whole story. The fact that we cut off our inheritance as well, means there is a distinctively covenantal disowning that has been at work ever since Adam. And the result of that is that the same disowning is attributed to us, due to Adam's original sin: Adam's sin thus federally imputes a curse to everyone who descends from Adam.

These were the major ground-shifts that I experienced in my own thinking, reading it.

There are some really difficult concepts throughout the short book ("mediate" and "immediate" imputation is still very fuzzy to me). Paradoxically the curse of imputed sin is unmediated when attributed to us: mostly because no one has come up with a theology of mediate imputation that really works for the Scriptures involved. That was mind-bending to me, but it was stated in as reasonable a way as I could fathom.

Hi heymikey80,

From what you shared, it almost sounds like Murray was trying to have it both ways. I'm in no position to draw conclusions. In this statement, "The fact that we cut off our inheritance as well, means there is a distinctively covenantal disowning that has been at work ever since Adam. And the result of that is that the same disowning is attributed to us, due to Adam's original sin: Adam's sin thus federally imputes a curse to everyone who descends from Adam, " it sounds like there is a connection to Adam's sin that affects us, but the details of that connection are not clear. It could be a spiritual connection that results in the same sin nature, but it's not necessarily genetically connected. I'm just thinking out loud. All I know is that we have the same nature as Adam, and we do the work of our father. That's why we need to be born again, born of God, so that we will do the work of our Father. Thank you for digging that up. It sounds like I'd hurt my brain if I tried to read Murray's book.

- Davies

 

[rrowell]

Hi rrowell,

Your right. Adam isn't mentioned in Psalm 32:2, but Romans 5:18 does along with surrounding verses. I do understand we don't agree on what Romans 5 says.

I hope you had a nice Sunday. At church today, our Pastor covered Matthew 28. It was a very uplifting sermon as the majority of it was spent on the resurrection of Jesus.

- Davies

Had a good day at church today thanks, Our minister preached for the first time in a year, he was in the hospital for I think 7 months, he did it from a wheel chair and he did a fantastic Job.

I agree we do not agree on Romans 5:18, if one is to say all men are born with sin since Adam, then they have to say (with that verse) all men are born righteous since Christ. you cannot add to one half the verse without adding to the other.

 

[rrowell]

The continuing observation Mr. rr is that 'sin' is not a matter of MAN or CHILD alone.

The devil does what the devil does and does so IN MAN.

Is this a difficult concept for you to grasp?

?

s

Yes, you may let the devil control you, but I choose not to, I have a choice to follow him, or follow God, it appears to me you do not and I am sorry for that.

if the devil "does so IN (this) MAN" it is because I let him.

 

[smaller]

Yes, you may let the devil control you,

Where are you getting this stuff?

The devil does what the devil does and does so 'in MAN.'

Does this in your math mean MAN = DEVIL?

All of us are subjected to temptation of the Tempter. That is an 'internal action' of WHOM?

And if 'internal' then WHERE is the location of the Tempter?

Get the picture here? There is more than just 'man' in the equation of sin.

but I choose not to, I have a choice to follow him, or follow God, it appears to me you do not and I am sorry for that.

Your choice is quite irrelevant to what the tempter does within man.

The tempter is forced 'into' man's heart to 'do his deal' therein by the sowing of the Word:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

That is what God made Satan to do and God made MAN subject to that intruder. God made MAN subject to that intrusion.

There is no way to say this doesn't happen. All have sin. Sin is of the devil.

The connection is clear. There are no exceptions to the intrusion other than God Himself while in flesh.

We can certainly claim that 'babies' are immune, but we are not dealing with 'just babies' in the conversation of facts.

s

 

[BornAgain]

You can also choose to follow God and not be a Christian or Christlike and have a sinful nature;.

Proverbs 11:9 (KJV)
9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.

Divine revelation, and accordingly is polluted, and lives in pollution. This is properly the force of the original word. Such persons deal in calumny and lies, and often thus destroy the character of their neighbor. Besides, they are very zealous in propagating their own infidel notions; and thus, by this means, destroy their neighbor; but the experimental knowledge which the just have of God and his salvation prevents them from being ensnared.—Adam Clarke's Commentary

 

[BornAgain]

Then the man replied, “The woman You gave to be with me—she gave me [some fruit] from the tree, and I ate.â€â€”Genesis 3:12

Adam and Eve did everything they could to avoid taking responsibility for their sin. Adam blamed his wife: “She gave me of the tree.†He even pointed an accusing finger at God, saying it was “the woman, whom You gave me.†Eve blamed the serpent saying: “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.†God ignored their excuses and announced the judgment they would face as consequences for their disobedience.

One of the downfalls of mankind is that we refuse to take responsibility for our actions. We want to blame others for our problems: Our parents did not raise us well; our friends let us down; our pastor was not a good enough preacher; our children are rebellious; our employer is not sensitive enough; our spouse is not understanding; there is not enough time in the day . . . the excuses are plentiful!

Yet forgiveness and restoration cannot happen until we accept full responsibility for our actions.

An obvious sign that we have not genuinely repented is that we make excuses for our sinful behavior. Nowhere in Scripture does God excuse one person's sin because of someone else's actions.

If we make a habit of blaming others for our failures, we will not reach a point of honest repentance. God will hold us accountable for our own actions, not others 2 Cor 5:10. Strive always to acknowledge and take responsibility for your own sins. It will free you to receive God's forgiveness and to press on to spiritual maturity.

 

[rrowell]

Get the picture here? There is more than just 'man' in the equation of sin.


Your choice is quite irrelevant to what the tempter does within man.

You can submit yourself to the tempter, or you can submit yourself to God.


James 4:7 (KJV)
7. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

The tempter is forced 'into' man's heart to 'do his deal' therein by the sowing of the Word:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Mark 4:15 has to do with the word of God planted on weak soil, men already given in to the tempter. it does not remove their choice. for all men have the same choice, even you Mr. Smaller, even you.

That is what God made Satan to do and God made MAN subject to that intruder. God made MAN subject to that intrusion.

Mr. Smaller,
No matter how much you try, the onus is on the man and his free will to accept God or satan, it is a choice he makes after his birth in to a world full of sin, but God will never "force" nor allow satan to "force" any man to sin, he will always leave him a way out:

1 Corinthians 10:13 (NKJV)
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

 

[smaller]

You can submit yourself to the tempter, or you can submit yourself to God.

No, we certainly do NOT want to see that tempter within man, particularly in ourselves or in babies.

The observation remains that sin is every bit about the working of spiritual wickedness within, unseen and NOT of man alone.

It is quite pointless to observe matters of sin without the parties involved, even if they can not be viewed with flesh eyes.

Mark 4:15 has to do with the word of God planted on weak soil, men already given in to the tempter. it does not remove their choice. for all men have the same choice, even you Mr. Smaller, even you.

All have sin and sin is of the devil. We can not say we 'have no sin' and be IN TRUTH. (1 John 3:8 and 1 John 1:8)

Do you still see just man in those facts?

It will always remain entertaining to me to hear believers admit temptation of the tempter, yet fail to see 'where' that places the tempter and instead such always, only and ever see only themselves.

Oh well. Such is fleshly logic.

s

 

[for_his_glory]

There was never a Holy Satan and Holy Devils. That is just a christian fairytale trumped up by the 'free' will camps to justify their salvation based on their own 'decision' making and pointing to some supposed Holy Satan and Holy Devils to have disbursed themselves through making bad decisions.



Largely a fantasy.



Again, the 'whole world' lies in wickedness. It will remain quite futile to make a baby the fulcrum of sin nor non sin when facts of sin revolved around the present powers and entities of evil in this present world.

To isolate this subject matter apart from the temporal causes of evil is not possible.

All flesh is subject to 'intrusion' by evil and it is intrusion UNseen.

There is no way to 'isolate' a baby from having that intrusion nor is there any way to 'isolate' any of ourselves from same.

Anyone who is honest about their own thoughts will find evil thoughts, and this, a reflection of being in a wicked world, subject to those intrusive powers.



By what measure? Many believers only measure sin by external measures. Most can't even divide the fact that the evil they think is the evil therein and as such is SIN within.

There is again no way to either measure or to isolate or insulate any of us from having this experience of 'evil thought', even in the womb. We can't say 'babies' in the womb have no thought nor can we say those thoughts are only and entirely pure and holy. That is not the human experience.

The fact of human experience in the flesh and in a wicked world with the proliferation of evil powers unseen makes all of subject to that internal working, and that working is SIN within.

There is no isolation available to or for anyone other than God Himself in flesh.



Iniquity is deemed a working mystery by Paul. (2 Thess. 2:7)



And to that I would agree with the axiom that 'all' of us down to the very last and least one are subjected to that exposure and immediately so in this presently wicked world.

There is no way to see this matter of sin as merely a matter of babies and their actions alone. It's not. There are other powers and entities to consider in all matters of sin and none avoid that encounter at any age. We are all presently in 'an evil age.'

It is even more ridiculous to crown young adults at a certain age saying to them, 'now you officially' are a sinner via the age of 'accountability.'

No one is immune from the intrusion of evil thoughts at any time and at any age. No decisions made of mankind avoids the facts of having evil thoughts in contention for their minds.

It's part of the package of being here.

s

Everything belonging to God is made holy and pure before Him as even all the angels, including Lucifer and the third he brought down with him, were all made holy, Luke 9:26; Mark 8:38; Matthew 25:31. One is created holy (pure) before God as he is the one who created all of us as he formed us in the womb. Sin is not found in one until their thoughts turn to it and I really do not think that a baby in the womb has any type of thoughts yet. There is no age of accountability as even a young child that learns to reason their thoughts and make their own choices will begin to sin, even though they do not understand where the source of sin comes from.

You said: There are other powers and entities to consider in all matters of sin and none avoid that encounter at any age.
What other powers and entities are you referring to as the only ones I know of are Satan and his minions he commands for evil as he imitates the opposite of God commanding His holy angels for goodness.
What possible sin could a baby in the womb commit when they haven't even been born yet? Could you make me a small list? One can only sin in thought and deed after they are brought into a sinful world and become influenced by by it to become a sinner.

 

[smaller]

Everything belonging to God is made holy and pure before Him as even all the angels, including Lucifer and the third he brought down with him, were all made holy, Luke 9:26; Mark 8:38; Matthew 25:31. One is created holy (pure) before God as he is the one who created all of us as he formed us in the womb. Sin is not found in one until their thoughts turn to it and I really do not think that a baby in the womb has any type of thoughts yet. There is no age of accountability as even a young child that learns to reason their thoughts and make their own choices will begin to sin, even though they do not understand where the source of sin comes from.

Don't read this wrongly. I am not saying any child or baby is a sinner of themselves.

Just putting the fact out that sin, generally speaking, is not and was never a question of 'man' alone. There are other working adverse powers that 'man' was, is and remains subject to that are 'not' man.

As to your views of Holy Satan, I will abide by Jesus' Statements of the matters in John 8:44 for the measure regarding the devil.

You said: There are other powers and entities to consider in all matters of sin and none avoid that encounter at any age.
What other powers and entities are you referring to

Hmmm? I wonder? It's odd that it can be put up plainly and still not be seen or understood.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I've explained the gift of the one is different then the gift of the other, I think, two or three times now. Why do I feel like that is being ignored?

Romans 5:17

New King James Version (NKJV)

17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)


Not everyone receives abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. Verse 17 explains the gift of righteousness is not universal and puts into context verse 18. But for those who do receive the gift of righteousness, then that righteousness is universal between them.

Oh, good morning Ernest.

- Davies

Rom 5:17 does not say death reigned for all inherited Adam's sin. People die as a consequence of Adam's sinning. Just as a drunk driver may cross the center line hitting another vehicle head-on. The innocent occupants of that vehicle may die as a consequence of the drunk driver's sin, they do not inherit the drunk driver's sin. In Rom 5:12, as mentioned many times in this thread Paul said "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned". Paul did NOT say death passed upon all for all have inherited Adam's sin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The problem is the flesh not just the fruit of the flesh. Sins that are committed are merely ‘fruit’ of the flesh.
It is not the fruit that causes the tree to be bad, but the bad tree that causes the bad fruit.

Is a bad tree not a bad tree, until it has produced its bad fruit?

[FONT=&quot]God has condemned sin in the flesh.[/FONT]

God did not create sinful, corrupt flesh. Everything God created, including man, was very good, Gen 1:31. Man corrupted himself when he chooses to sin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, we are all born with a sinful nature.

Then all the sins I commit are God's fault for creating me with such a nature and I have no accountability for any sins. I have excuse contrary to what Rom 1:20

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Psalm 32:2

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit.

Sin is imputed to man, and it is imputed by the LORD.

- Davies

Paul quotes this in Rom 4:6-8 Sin is imputed to them that do not obey God by repenting. Righteousness is imputed to those who obey by repenting of their sins and then they receive forgiveness. Sin nor righteousness are imputed by God unto man for unknown or capricious reasons.

 

[Davies]

... Righteousness is imputed to those who obey by repenting of their sins and then they receive forgiveness. ...

Hi Ernest,

This is a self-works based salvation. Jesus earned our salvation. We don't earn it by what we do.

I hope everyone sees why original sin is an essential doctrine, because based on your view, it has implications to the Gospel itself.

- Davies

 

[for_his_glory]

May I ask: What did Jesus and John say?


You say that 'in the beginning' Satan was perfect and sinless. But according to Jesus, Satan's "beginning" was precisely the opposite:

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING"


John repeats this fact:

1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING."


John says the devil WAS A 'SINNER FROM THE BEGINNING!' Jesus says that the devil was a 'MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING'. You say that Jesus and John were wrong. May I ask why?



Where in Ezekiel 28 is Satan mentioned? Chapter and verse? You've been "told" that the "prince of Tyrus" from Ezekiel 28 is referring to Satan, but where do the Scriptures say that?

• (the "prince" of Tyre and the "king" of Tyre are obviously the same person - they are both ruling over the same place - Tyre. All Kings are princes before they become kings. ;) )

The king of Tyre was certainly not perfect in God's ways. Here is how the king of Tyre was 'perfect:'

Ezekiel 15:1 "And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Ezekiel 15:2 Son of man, What is the vine tree more than any tree, [or than] a branch which is among the trees of the forest?
Ezekiel 15:3 Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work? or will [men] take a pin of it to hang any vessel thereon?
Ezekiel 15:4 Behold, it is cast into the fire for fuel; the fire devoureth both the ends of it, and the midst of it is burned. Is it meet for [any] work?
Ezekiel 15:5 Behold, when it was whole, it was meet for no work: how much less shall it be meet yet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it, and it is burned?"


Do you see that word 'whole?' "When it was whole, it was meet for no work: how much less shall it be meet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it and it is burned?" That word 'whole' is the exact same Hebrew word that is translated 'perfect' in Ezekiel 28:15:

• Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

The Hebrew word is:

• H8549
  תּמים
  tâmîym
  taw-meem'
  From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

All of the lambs which were sacrificed were also 'perfect' lambs. But it is not possible that the blood of a lamb can take away the sins of the world. Neither is it possible that the king of Tyre is not also "marred in the hand of the Potter."

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."



The King of Tyre was definitely not any less "shapen in iniquity" or "conceived in sin" than was King David. When he was "whole," when he was 'taw-meem', when he was 'perfect,' [the King of Tyre] was unfit for the kingdom of God. WHY?

1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"



When it was 'whole' [Hebrew: 'taw-meem'], it [the King of Tyre] was meet for no work: how much less shall it be meet yet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it, and it is burned?



The king of Tyre is dead and long gone in the outward sense. But he is alive and well in every one of us today if we are not dying daily to the pulls of our flesh. That is why these chapters are here in God's Word. It is each of us who tends to 'exalt himself to heaven' (Isaiah 14) - and it is each one of us who sits as that 'man of sin' usurping God's proper place on His Throne in the Temple of God [which YE ARE]. This is "written for our admonition..."

1 Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."


It is written and it happened to them, BUT for us.

The 'perfection' of the king of Tyre is no more glorious than the perfection of a lamb. It is perfect for what it is designed to be, a "marred vessel" in need of a Savior.

Yes, Jesus and John both said this and it is true, but Lucifer, whose name was changed to Satan after his fall, did not become a murderer or sinner until iniquity was found in him. How can you not see that it was Satan working through the King of Tyre as also in Chapters 26 and 27 introduces Tyrus as an oppressor of Jerusalem. Satan has always had as his primary target, the nation from whom Christ came.

Ezekiel 28:
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Ernest,

This is a self-works based salvation. Jesus earned our salvation. We don't earn it by what we do.

I hope everyone sees why original sin is an essential doctrine, because based on your view, it has implications to the Gospel itself.

- Davies

Obeying God in no way earns salvation but is a condition put on the free gift of salvation. Just as Naaman's obedience in dipping did not earn his cleansing for it was still of grace but dipping was a condition placed upon receiving grace.