Are we born with a sin nature?

[for_his_glory]

KJV - Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Jerusalem Bible - Psalms 51:5 You know I was born guilty, a sinner from the moment of conception

This is another verse many use to say we are sinful before we are born, but read it again from both these Bibles as they say the same things. While we we being created in the womb we were created sinless, but to be born into a sinful world that causes us to sin after birth because of sins environmental influence around us, not that we were conceived with sin in us.

 

[smaller]

KJV - Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Jerusalem Bible - Psalms 51:5 You know I was born guilty, a sinner from the moment of conception

This is another verse many use to say we are sinful before we are born, but read it again from both these Bibles as they say the same things. While we we being created in the womb we were created sinless, but to be born into a sinful world that causes us to sin after birth because of sins environmental influence around us, not that we were conceived with sin in us.

You mean this one?

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[childeye]

According to the Bible, Eve was deceived and Adam sinned in defiance to God's will. But you are correct, each disobeyed God.

I have to disagree. The bible does not say anywhere that Adam sinned in a show of defiance to God's will. Paul was not even speaking in that context when he said that Adam was not decieved but the woman was. He simply was saying the man should be in charge rather than the woman because the woman was decieved. This does not mean he was saying Adam disobeyed out of defiance while Eve was merely duped. After all only an idiot would say the person who wantonly and knowingly steals, should have authority over the person who was tricked into stealing.

 

[for_his_glory]

According to the Bible, Eve was deceived and Adam sinned in defiance to God's will. But you are correct, each disobeyed God.

Hi Steve, I told you I was going to do a deeper study in this and I am glad I did as now I see a huge difference in conceived and birth and I want to thank you for our former discussion we had back in the topic on age of accountability as I love to be challenged to dig even deeper.

 

[for_his_glory]

You mean this one?

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

yes, as when I read that verse again the word shapen just seemed to jump out at me as being so different then that of actually being born.

 

[farouk]

KJV - Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Jerusalem Bible - Psalms 51:5 You know I was born guilty, a sinner from the moment of conception

This is another verse many use to say we are sinful before we are born, but read it again from both these Bibles as they say the same things. While we we being created in the womb we were created sinless, but to be born into a sinful world that causes us to sin after birth because of sins environmental influence around us, not that we were conceived with sin in us.

'As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians 15.22).

We inherit Adam's sin. The believer in the Lord Jesus inherits the righteousness of God by faith.

 

[childeye]

Some say we are sinful by nature. Others say we are sinful by choice.

Actually I think there is plenty of Biblical evidence that it is both by nature and by choice.

Good job of framing the issue here. But it goes without saying that a person sinful by nature will choose to sin, so simply saying we choose to sin does not even address the question. That is the problem with understanding the issue. It seems to me that there is nothing good in man except God, and God wants to prove this so that we will esteem Him correctly. Hence we experience a sin nature that we cannot help so as to in the end glorify God and worship Him as our Light. Hence scripture says this about the topic:
Romans 3:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

 

[childeye]

But sin is a product of choice, Adam and Eve chose to disobey God

Sin is not a product of choice. Otherwise freewill is founded upon the occasion to sin. Or in otherwords, unless I can freely choose to disobey God, I have no freewill. What does that say about my blindness to God being trustworthy as factoring in? Also what about the consideration of Adam and Eve being deceived and malleable, and whether we give them the benefit of the doubt? People don't choose to be decieved unless they are already decieved and are denying the Truth. At any rate, Truth is being presented here on this thread and some are denying it which means they are deceived which proves they don't choose to be.

 

[wayseer]

'As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians 15.22).

We inherit Adam's sin. The believer in the Lord Jesus inherits the righteousness of God by faith.

How, pray tell, did 'we' inherit Adam's sin when the whole story of Adam is about 'earth' and not about a person.

And - how do 'we' inherit the righteousness of God exactly?

 

[Dustoftheearth]

If man was born with a sinful nature then man is not responsible for his own sins, God would be responsible. That would have God causing men to be born with a sinful nature then God punishing men for the way God made them to be.

I have asked a similar question in an earlier post, but the person (wayseer) has not answered.

Scripture tells us that sin begins in the heart.
So, if the ability to sin is not inherent, then what causes the sinless heart to become sinful?


If man is not born with a sinful nature, then he would also be perfectly formed in the womb.

How can a child die or suffer physical and mental defects in the womb, if they have no sinful nature?

Is that God’s fault as well, or is it inherent from the seed of fallen man?

 

[Davies]

Good afternoon,

Romans 5:12

New King James Version (NKJV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

I think this passage is plain for us to understand. How do we know that all sinned. Because our representative, Adam, sinned. Why else do we die? Our own sins earn us the same thing that Adam sin does.

Romans 5:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Before coming to Jesus, we all were condemned; judgment handed down. "Through one mans' offense Judgment came to all men." That's the bad news that puts the Gospel into perspective. Because we are found in Adam, we are found in sin. So, weather you believe we are born with a sin nature or not, it doesn't matter. You stand already condemned before coming to Jesus. Now, we say we don't earn our salvation by what we do, but we are made righteous, "through one Man's righteous act." We should be able to see the wisdom of God by imputing to us Adam's sin, because now we can see that we are imputed righteousness through Jesus.

- Davies

 

[Dustoftheearth]

Rom 5:12 "....and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

We have all sinned through Adam, as the whole of mankind was in the loins of Adam when he sinned.

The writer of Hebrews makes similar reference to this:

Heb 7:9 And if I may say so, Levi, also, who receives tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

 

[smaller]

It's a common christian fairytale that 'sin' is a product of choice. And if so, then the sum of all choices certainly has not produced any sinless ones other than God Himself. One does not 'choose' themselves into sinlessness.

 

[childeye]

Good afternoon,

Romans 5:12

New King James Version (NKJV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

I think this passage is plain for us to understand. How do we know that all sinned. Because our representative, Adam, sinned. Why else do we die? Our own sins earn us the same thing that Adam sin does.

Romans 5:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Before coming to Jesus, we all were condemned; judgment handed down. "Through one mans' offense Judgment came to all men." That's the bad news that puts the Gospel into perspective. Because we are found in Adam, we are found in sin. So, weather you believe we are born with a sin nature or not, it doesn't matter. You stand already condemned before coming to Jesus. Now, we say we don't earn our salvation by what we do, but we are made righteous, "through one Man's righteous act." We should be able to see the wisdom of God by imputing to us Adam's sin, because now we can see that we are imputed righteousness through Jesus.

- Davies

I think a key point is found in the word imputed.

So what is God's wisdom in this? I believe it's so as to give Glory to His Spirit in Christ, which is our Light.

If freewill ends up choosing the choice of darkness, it is a choice made out of darkness. The sheep choose or rather will to follow the shepherd because they trust Him with faith, and God has chosen the lowly with much faith. Even the sinner who the Pharisees wouldn't touch but she enters in ahead of them. So the fact that choice must occur is an irrelevant consequence of being sentient, and being presented with a Shepherd to either be trusted or distrusted. And that is why is why there is an option that we are forced to choose upon. But that does not indicate any control over the choice so as to be enabled to go either way when making it.

For since the sheep who trust are faith based in their reasoning, they would not even count distrust as an option and visa versa. After all, people who know God, all fall on their face in true reverance, and not as a matter of deliberation. The faith level per person seems to me to be in degrees, which then means God would be sifting according to His power to create the children of God in their order. It could be said that the amount of God's word in one's heart predetermines one's faith since there is some remnant we must possess of truth that recognizes Truth. Darkness does not comprehend Light. Hence the Gospel make mountains into valleys, and valleys into mountains. And the blind are made to see, and the seeing made blind.

 

[Davies]

I think a key point is found in the word imputed.

So what is God's wisdom in this? I believe it's so as to give Glory to His Spirit in Christ, which is our Light.

As many people have expressed unbelief in original sin, you can see how difficult it is to see the wisdom of God in imputing sin through Adam to all men. This does glorify God, but without being established in the Gospel, this is impossible to see. This is a work of the Holy Spirit.

- Davies

 

[stovebolts]

I have to disagree. The bible does not say anywhere that Adam sinned in a show of defiance to God's will. Paul was not even speaking in that context when he said that Adam was not decieved but the woman was. He simply was saying the man should be in charge rather than the woman because the woman was decieved. This does not mean he was saying Adam disobeyed out of defiance while Eve was merely duped. After all only an idiot would say the person who wantonly and knowingly steals, should have authority over the person who was tricked into stealing.

Let's look at two passages.
1Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
If Adam wasn't deceived, what was he?

Genesis 3:11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

God says, "that I commanded you not to eat from?"

Adam knew. He wasn't deceived. He even says, "she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it." It was an act of defiance, not deception.

Romans 5:12a 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

There is much more we could say about this, but I don't want to pull the OP away.

 

[stovebolts]

'As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians 15.22).

We inherit Adam's sin. The believer in the Lord Jesus inherits the righteousness of God by faith.

We don't inherit sin. Please see Ezekiel 18.

That being said, the world is broken and shattered and sin runs amuk. We are born into a sinful, broken world. As with Adam and Eve, it is only a matter of time before we sin, and we all sin.

 

[Sinthesis]

Are you saying that Eve was deceived(not a sin), while Adam chose to be defiant(a sin)?

 

[for_his_glory]

I have asked a similar question in an earlier post, but the person (wayseer) has not answered.

Scripture tells us that sin begins in the heart.
So, if the ability to sin is not inherent, then what causes the sinless heart to become sinful?



If man is not born with a sinful nature, then he would also be perfectly formed in the womb.

How can a child die or suffer physical and mental defects in the womb, if they have no sinful nature?

Is that God’s fault as well, or is it inherent from the seed of fallen man?

None of us can actually explain why a child dies or suffers physical defects in the womb as only God has His reasons for this. It reminds me of the child David lost as God has His reason for it as the death of the child brought David to repent before the Lord and make straight his path again before the Lord.

There are four covenant promises God made with Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3 as now we who are in Christ also inherit those promises. It's like someone who leaves a will (inheritance) to their family and gives an equal potion to everyone they name in the will as being part of the family, so as us being part of Gods family makes us a relative of Abraham and the same promises.

1. God will show you the land
2. God will make thee a great nation
3. God will bless thee and make thy name great the we be a blessing to others
4. I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse you

We inherit that same sin nature from Adam who was our first father as through him sin entered the world, but we do not know we have inherited anything until it is revealed to us and that does not happen until after we are born.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I understand what you are saying. But I don't think you are understanding me. So let me put it this way. I don't believe man was created a sinner but was innocent and without any knowledge of good or evil. Mankind thus including Eve was corrupted by believing a lie proposed by Satan. Satan subtly suggested that God was protecting His place as God by denying knowledge. In the big picture however, God has foreseen all of this and therefore events are happening as He allows, for the purpose of defeating all slander about Him. So it is right to say there is no fault in God for making men corruptible since He uses it to glorify Himself.

First you say " I don't believe man was created a sinner but was innocent" but then you say "there is no fault in God for making men corruptible".

So did God create/make man innocent or corruptible?

Zech 12:1 God forms the spirit within man and that spirit would be as pure as its Maker. Eccl 7:29 "...God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions". So God did not create man to be corrupt but created man pure, innocent and upright but man chooses to sin and corrupt himself. So that corruption cannot be blamed on God for making man corrupt but blamed on man for choosing to be corrupt. Certainly God can use corruption that men choose to do to further His own will as Judas. God used Judas' free will choice to sin to further His own purpose in having the Messiah die for mankind. But God did not create and thereby force Judas to be a sinner and force Judas to betray the Christ against Judas's own will.

In none of my posts have I said God created man a sinner. Man was made corruptible, but this thread is asking if man is born with a sin nature. Those are two different scenarios. Mankind was lied to without any knowledge of what a lie is. I would think the fact a choice was made out of ignorance does in fact mitigate the culpability of the person to some degree. However I fail to see a good answer for Adam when asked why he distrusted God, while if asked why Adam trusted God, he could at least answer, because He gave me life. Unless of course Adam believes God gave him life to simply use him as a slave to do work God did not Himself want to do. This then would be in conflict with the idea that God made Mankind for companionship. That is why righteousness is not through free choice as I see it but rather through faith or trust in God's intentions and His Character.

You say here "Man was made corruptible, but this thread is asking if man is born with a sin nature."

Maybe you need to define to me what you mean by corruptible. When God created man, Adam, he could have eaten from the tree of life and lived forever in a the perfect utopia Eden with no diease, illness etc but when he sinned he corrupted himself. So God made Adam good, pure, upright yet Adam "sough out his own inventions" Eccl 7:29 and corrupted himself.

You say "Mankind was lied to without any knowledge of what a lie is."
Adam and Eve were plainly told to NOT to eat of the tree in the midst of the garden. They directly disobeyed this command. No matter what the serpent told them they already knew what they could and could not do. After they ate of the tree God asked them "Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?" So God had an established command/law in the garden and they knowingly, willingly disobeyed it and sinned for sin is transgression of God's law. This sin was the culpability of Adam and Eve and not God.

You say "That is why righteousness is not through free choice as I see it but rather through faith or trust in God's intentions and His Character."

Having or not having faith is a free will choice of man meaning those men that freely choose to have faith will be reckoned righteous.

The only way man can be righteous is by doing God's righteousness. Peter told Cornelius in Acts 10:35 those that worketh righteousness are accepted with God. SO it is a free will choice that man wither work righteousness by doing what God said or work unrightoeusness by disobeying what God said. If doing righteousness is not a free will choice of man then GOd has to either force men to be righteous or unrighteous putting culpability upon God.

You're right, but since God didn't create man a sinner, all of this is somewhat off target. The fact that man is naive or gullible is made apparrant in scripture. The word deceived, lame and blind is used over and over pertaining to man's will. The question should then arise, was Satan made a sinner since he is called the father of sin? For what it's worth, I wish you would consider that sin is the product of pride and ignorance rather than a free choice.

From the garden of Eden till now God has given man laws/commands to follow so how can man plead ignorance or naivety? How could Adam and Eve make the claim they didn't know they were not suppose to eat of that tree when God plainly told them not to?

Satan was not made a sinner but was a sinner for he chose to sin.