Are we born with a sin nature?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Let's take this verse for what it is really saying and underline the word from and underline as soon as this verse mean after we are born we become wicked speaking lies.

From my post #92, in examining this passage it should be understood the language is highly figurative and not to be taken literally.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I never said in my OP that we were born with a sin nature. You need to re-read the first paragraph I wrote.

I was just making a statement showing a problem with man having a sin nature it was not meant to mean that you agree with man being born with a sinful nature.

 

[stovebolts]

Are you saying that Eve was deceived(not a sin), while Adam chose to be defiant(a sin)?

I am saying that both sinned. However, sin that occurred because of ignorance or unbelief is treated differently than sin that occurs in defiance. Numbers 15:22-31 clearly marks this out. Also, grace is shown to those that sin in ignorance while those who sin in defiance bring wrath upon themselves. Lastly, Matthew 18 shows how to treat a believer who defiantly sins. He is to be cast out... Clearly, Adam was cast out of the garden.

Hope that clears it up.

 

[smaller]

From my post #92, in examining this passage it should be understood the language is highly figurative and not to be taken literally.

It was pointed out that your 'highly figurative' measures on that statement basically eliminated it and then inserted some other spin in it's stead that suited the fancy of the doctrinal positions, which obviously doesn't 'jell' with the scripture itself. And that methodology is quite typical.

Here is the fact from the text, highly figurative or not. It says what it says and is in no need of elimination by tamperings to suit doctrines. But when your author got done tampering with it, it no longer means what it plainly says.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

As for Adam, Paul told us all clearly the condition of Adam's planting in 1 Cor. 15, and again this disturbs many doctrinal constructs who believe Adam was somehow 'perfect' before he made a bad decision. That was never the case. These were Adam's factual conditions according to the text:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made -

Now, if the NATURAL MAN, Adam, was made this way, that is his DUST habitation, we might conclude from those 'facts' his inevitable 'bad decision.' And this is also the 'conditions' of every person who has been born since save for God Himself in flesh.

We know for example from Paul the 'natural man's' understanding of LAW, which Law was laid upon Adam:

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The 'natural' man, Adam was not deceived because such can not even bring themselves into understandings, period. And therefore Adam was shown to be what he 'really was.' Sown in weakness, corruption, dishonor and a NATURAL BODY with a NATURALLY INCLINED brain who really didn't have a clue about the LAW.

Eve on the other hand was deceived, and in this way is a PICTURE of 'internal deception,' her being taken out of Adam AFTER the Law was laid upon Adam.

If a person bothers to read Mark 4:15 they will also see the 'instrument' of their mutual difficulty and how it happened to 'go down.'

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

'As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive' (1 Corinthians 15.22).

We inherit Adam's sin. The believer in the Lord Jesus inherits the righteousness of God by faith.

But 1 Cor 15:22 does not say all inherited Adam's sin. All die as a consequence of Adam sinning so death is a consequence of one man (Adam) sinning and all are made alive as the consequence of one man's (Christ's) resurrection.

 

[stovebolts]

But 1 Cor 15:22 does not say all inherited Adam's sin. All die as a consequence of Adam sinning so death is a consequence of one man (Adam) sinning and all are made alive as the consequence of one man's (Christ's) resurrection.

Not only that, but Ezekiel 18 makes it very clear that we don't inherit the sins of our father.

I really don't know what's so hard about saying that the world is full of sin, and that sin affects us. Not only that, but it's only a matter of time before we sin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I have asked a similar question in an earlier post, but the person (wayseer) has not answered.

Scripture tells us that sin begins in the heart.
So, if the ability to sin is not inherent, then what causes the sinless heart to become sinful?

People choose to sin. The newly conceived/newly born are not capable of sinning as John said sin is transgression of the law. What law (lying, stealing, murder, adultery) did the newly concieve transgress thereby making him a sinner? So they are not sinners for they are not capable of sinning. Rom 9:11 "(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,", so the newly concieved have not committed any sin or any good, they are neutral, innocent. Isa 7:15-16 children do not know right from wrong and that has to be learned.

Paul said of himself in Rom 7:8-9 "For without the law sin [was] dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

Paul makes the factual statement that without law sin is dead, there is no sin without law. Then Paul said he was once alive without law meaning he was once alive and sin had no power over him, sin was dead to him. That would have been when he was an innocent child. As Paul matured mentally and was able to think and reason he learned right from wrong then sin sprang up in him and he died spiritually. Sin was not in him at conception but was something that revived or sprang up later in his life.

If man is not born with a sinful nature, then he would also be perfectly formed in the womb.

Zech 12:1 God forms the spirit with man and that spirit would be as pure as it's Maker. If God formed me with a depraved, sinful nature then that is something forced upon me by God and not my fault.

How can a child die or suffer physical and mental defects in the womb, if they have no sinful nature?

Is that God’s fault as well, or is it inherent from the seed of fallen man?

Children die or suffer illness as a consequence of Adam's sin not because they inherited Adam's sin.

A drunk drive may cross the center line a hit another vehicle head-on killing or injuring those innocent parties in the other vehicle. Those innocent parties in the other car did not inherit the drunk driver's sin but they certainly suffered the consequence the drunk driver's sin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It was pointed out that your 'highly figurative' measures on that statement basically eliminated it and then inserted some other spin in it's stead that suited the fancy of the doctrinal positions, which obviously doesn't 'jell' with the scripture itself. And that methodology is quite typical.

Here is the fact from the text, highly figurative or not. It says what it says and is in no need of elimination by tamperings to suit doctrines. But when your author got done tampering with it, it no longer means what it plainly says.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

You did not hi-lite "speaking lies". Since new borns cannot speak and do not undertand languages it is obvious the Psalmist is not talking about literal new borns. The Psalmist is using poetic license in figuratively saying it is early in life, in one's youth Gen 8:21 that one begins to sin and separate himself from God.

As for Adam, Paul told us all clearly the condition of Adam's planting in 1 Cor. 15, and again this disturbs many doctrinal constructs who believe Adam was somehow 'perfect' before he made a bad decision. That was never the case. These were Adam's factual conditions according to the text:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made -

Now, if the NATURAL MAN, Adam, was made this way, that is his DUST habitation, we might conclude from those 'facts' his inevitable 'bad decision.' And this is also the 'conditions' of every person who has been born since save for God Himself in flesh.

We know for example from Paul the 'natural man's' understanding of LAW, which Law was laid upon Adam:

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The 'natural' man, Adam was not deceived because such can not even bring themselves into understandings, period. And therefore Adam was shown to be what he 'really was.' Sown in weakness, corruption, dishonor and a NATURAL BODY with a NATURALLY INCLINED brain who really didn't have a clue about the LAW.

Eve on the other hand was deceived, and in this way is a PICTURE of 'internal deception,' her being taken out of Adam AFTER the Law was laid upon Adam.

If a person bothers to read Mark 4:15 they will also see the 'instrument' of their mutual difficulty and how it happened to 'go down.'

s

What would eating form the tree of life do for Adam and Eve? It would keep them live, healthy, perfect condition until they sinned and corrupted themsleves and the earth.


1 Cor 15:42ff Paul is not saying man was created corruptible but the corruptible body is planted or sown, buried in death and decays. As a seed is sown, buried in the earth.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not only that, but Ezekiel 18 makes it very clear that we don't inherit the sins of our father.

I really don't know what's so hard about saying that the world is full of sin, and that sin affects us. Not only that, but it's only a matter of time before we sin.

Yes Eze 18:4,20 say "the soul that sinneth, it shall die", you commit your own sins and are accountable for your own sins and not for some other persons' sins.

 

[Davies]

Morning,

So, isn't it amazing that Jesus was held accountable for our sin?!

- Davies

 

[smaller]

You did not hi-lite "speaking lies".

Well, the identity of the wicked is an interesting conversation. And anyone who has had children knows they can be very deceptive, even while very young, even infants. They play you like a fiddle.

Since new borns cannot speak and do not undertand languages it is obvious the Psalmist is not talking about literal new borns. The Psalmist is using poetic license in figuratively saying it is early in life, in one's youth Gen 8:21 that one begins to sin and separate himself from God.

Doesn't mean speaking has to be understandable. The first thing any baby does is cry. They complain almost immediately upon birth.

What would eating form the tree of life do for Adam and Eve? It would keep them live, healthy, perfect condition until they sinned and corrupted themsleves and the earth.

If Adam would have had any brains whatsoever he'd have ran straight for that tree first. So I suspect he really didn't have a clue what it was or contained. I'm not even sure it was a 'tree' in the literal sense.

1 Cor 15:42ff Paul is not saying man was created corruptible but the corruptible body is planted or sown, buried in death and decays. As a seed is sown, buried in the earth.

Paul stated the exact conditions of Adam's planting and of all of us since. In corruption, weakness and dishonor. How much glory can a wet compilation of dust have anyway?

Not much other than a passing image soon to be blowing in the winds.

God had something better in Mind anyway. A last Spiritual Adam. I doubt Adam would trade bodies if he had the 'choice.'

s

 

[childeye]

First you say " I don't believe man was created a
sinner but was innocent" but then you say "there is no fault in God for making
men corruptible".

So did God create/make man innocent or corruptible?

Man is made innocent as in without knowledge of good and evil, blameless. However, man being made of flesh was able to be corrupted when they partook of such knowledge. For God said, the day you eat of that fruit you will surely die.

Zech 12:1 God forms the spirit within man and that spirit would be as pure as
its Maker. Eccl 7:29 "...God hath made man upright; but they have sought out
many inventions". So God did not create man to be corrupt but created man pure,
innocent and upright but man chooses to sin and corrupt himself. So that
corruption cannot be blamed on God for making man corrupt but blamed on man for
choosing to be corrupt. Certainly God can use corruption that men choose to do
to further His own will as Judas. God used Judas' free will choice to sin to
further His own purpose in having the Messiah die for mankind. But God did not
create and thereby force Judas to be a sinner and force Judas to betray the
Christ against Judas's own will.

I think we are closer to agreement than not. The differences between us are more about semantics. I know we make choices but I am also sure that ignorance and knowledge has much to do with how we choose. Hence freewill exists or doesn't depending on how one defines the term.

You say here "Man was made corruptible, but this thread is asking if man is born
with a sin nature."

Maybe you need to define to me what you mean by
corruptible. When God created
man, Adam, he could have eaten from the tree
of life and lived forever in a the
perfect utopia Eden with no diease,
illness etc but when he sinned he corrupted
himself. So God made Adam good,
pure, upright yet Adam "sough out his own
inventions" Eccl 7:29 and
corrupted himself.

I think your analysis is well stated and the scripture you use is appropriate. Corruptible to me simply means that we are made of flesh, able to become corrupted in our ignornace of our station under God. While God for example is an Eternal Spirit, is Incorruptible, Holy and Eternal with all knowledge and immutable. Mankind indeed was in a perfect place for him in the garden where God put him. But as you have pointed out, man sought his own devices. I kind of look at it like man was fooled into trying to fix what was not broken.

You say "Mankind was lied to without any knowledge of what a lie is."
Adam
and Eve were plainly told to NOT to eat of the tree in the midst
of the garden. They directly disobeyed this command. No matter what the serpent
told them they already knew what they could and could not do.

I agree with you to a point here. Yes they were told not eat of the tree and it appears to me they believed God and obeyed accordingly for a time. But scripture does not say how long they lived in such obedience, only that they strayed after being tempted and lied to by the serpent. Obviously therefore, the obedience of Adam and Eve was based upon trusting in God's loving inentions towards them and this is what was indermined by Satan. Only after eating and seeing their error would they actually know for themselves that God was ever being truthful with them and Satan was the one who was lying.

After they ate of the tree God asked them "Hast thou eaten of the tree,
whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?" So God had
an established command/law in the garden and they knowingly, willingly disobeyed
it and sinned for sin is transgression of God's law. This sin was the
culpability of Adam and Eve and not God.

True enough, but that does not change the fact that distrust of God's Character preceded the disobedience and that distrust was the product of a lie spoken by the serpent. That is why righteousness is by faith.

You say "That is why righteousness is not through free choice as I see it but
rather through faith or trust in God's intentions and His Character."


Having or not having faith is a free will choice of man meaning those men
that freely choose to have faith will be reckoned righteous.

Yes from a mans point of view this appears to be true. But from God's point of view it is complete ignorance and foolishness to ever ponder the veracity of God's Holiness. Only the corrupted mind doubts one's own Maker.

The only way man can be righteous is by doing God's righteousness. Peter told
Cornelius in Acts 10:35 those that worketh righteousness are accepted with God.
SO it is a free will choice that man wither work righteousness by doing what God
said or work unrightoeusness by disobeying what God said. If doing righteousness
is not a free will choice of man then GOd has to either force men to be
righteous or unrighteous putting culpability upon God.

The only problem with this reasoning is that we know that men crucified the Christ and persecuted the Apostles convinced they were doing the righteousness of God. Where is the free will to do or not do the will of God when men don't even know God nor His will?

From the garden of Eden till now God has given man laws/commands to follow so
how can man plead ignorance or naivety?

That's simple. Since God is Holy, only an ignorant person could conclude otherwise.

How could Adam and Eve make the claim they didn't know they were not
suppose to eat of that tree when God plainly told them not to?

They couldn't claim they weren't told, nor did they claim that. As said above it doesn't really matter what they were told since they were also told to the contrary by the serpent. The issue for them was who do you believe, who do you trust? Moreover, the scripture says the serpent was the wisest and most cunning of all of God's creatures. He was well able to outsmart Adam and Eve.

Satan was not made a sinner but was a sinner for he chose to sin.

Once again, yes we do make choices. That is beside the point however when asking the question why we choose one way or the other. Choice is not simply a random act but rather is based upon a certain line of reasoning. Hence a wise man chooses differently than when he was an ignorant child.

By the way, thanks for talking with me Ernest T. Bass.

 

[childeye]

Let's look at two passages.
1Timothy 2:14 And Adam
was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a
sinner.
If Adam wasn't deceived, what was he?

First off, thanks for the reply. Regarding Adam the scriptures in Genesis say the woman was who interacted with the serpent not Adam. The serpent spoke to the woman and appealed to her senses. Essentially this is all Paul is reiterating despite the semantics. Indeed Adam was wrong when he was persuaded by the woman to eat, and most likely over his own better judgment. For scripture says that what Adam did wrong was he listened to the woman, and the woman was deceived while persuading him. So your question would be better framed as, if Adam trusted his deceived mate even though he wasn't the one who was deceived to begin with what was he? Unconfident.

Adam knew. He wasn't deceived. He even says, "she gave me some fruit from the
tree, and I ate it." It was an act of defiance, not deception.

What exactly did Adam know? He knew the same thing Eve did, that they were told not to eat of the fruit lest they die. They also were told the contrary by the serpent who was more cunning and knowledgable than they. The issue is not what they knew, but who to trust. The whole point of the subtlty of Satan's devise was to undermine Adam and Eve's trust in God so they would doubt and disobey. It's not defiance, it's deception. And this is proven many ways and even by the Gospel. For those who preach it, know they will be persecuted by those who are yet under the power of darkness that is founded upon Satan's lie. Hence Jesus says, you will be persecuted by those who believe they are serving God. Forgive them for they know not what they do, return good for evil, turn the other cheek, etc...

 

[BornAgain]

We all have a sin nature as we have all been conceived and born into a sinful world by that of Satan's deceit. IE: the fall of Adam and Eve being deceived by Satan using the serpent as his vessel, Genesis 3:1-15. Like Adam and Eve we are created and born without sin as God created each of us and can not even look upon sin so why would God create us sinful, John 9:31; Romans 8:7,8: Mark 15:34 (God did not forsake his son on the cross, but had to look away as Jesus was taking all our sin upon himself.

Adam and Eve were created sinless, but placed into a sinful world because of Satan being cast down to the ground and became sin to the nations before that of God creating Adam, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17. They lost sight of God for a temporary moment and paid the penalty of their sin by God casting them out of the garden and placing them into a sinful world. There is nowhere in scripture that actually says Adam or Eve repented and asked for forgiveness, but we do see that God provided for them as he made them clothing from animals to cover their shame and we can correlate that as the first animal sacrifice for the atonement of sin (shame) leading up to that of Jesus being the final sacrifice for sin as God clothes us in His righteousness.

Genesis 3:21-24 we see God clothing them and also sending them out of the garden for judgment passed on them so they could not eat from the tree of life and literally live forever, but to now having to work the land God provided for them outside of the garden and eat from it till they returned back to the dust of the ground through physical death. We can also read in Genesis 4:1 that Eve gave birth to Cain and exclaimed she got a male child from the Lord so I do feel they repented and God forgave them as God continued to provide for them, but not the way in which He intended to in he garden.

David’s transgressions were from a sin nature of being born into a sinful world and not that of being born a sinner when he made the statement in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. David’s transgressions were that of lusting after things that were not his, 2 Samuel 12:1-24, in wanting more than what God had already blessed him with and he became an angry man full of greed until God humbled his heart through the death of his son he had with Bathsheba and once David was humbled he returned back to Gods grace and became that man of God that God predestined him to be.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. They are not born astray, but stray into sin after birth by that of sin that is already in the world that deceives them. A child will imitate that of the adults around them so they will either imitate that of God and His goodness in love as seen in their parents or will imitate that of evil that is taught by their parents. The child does not know yet of good or evil, but their life will be influenced by what

To get back to the OP....we are not born with a sinful nature.

 

[childeye]

Morning,

So, isn't it amazing that Jesus was held accountable for our sin?!

- Davies

I never liked the idea of someone else suffering and dying for things I committed and I still don't. So yes, it is amazing which is why I had to ask, why did he do this? When I found out why, then I wanted to do it also.

 

[farouk]

...but we're dead spiritually, without Christ (Ephesians 2.1).

'In Adam all die' (1 Corinthians 15.22).

 

[Davies]

To get back to the OP....we are not born with a sinful nature.

Hi BornAgain,

I would disagree with you that we are not born with a sinful nature. The Law of God reveals otherwise. We break the Law because it is in our nature to do so. Our problem is that we are found in Adam. If you disagree that we are born with this nature, then you could say Jesus didn't die for babies that don't make it to the age of accountability, whatever age that may be. I think everyone needs the atoning blood of Jesus applied to their account. Don't you?

- Davies

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Morning,

So, isn't it amazing that Jesus was held accountable for our sin?!

- Davies

Jesus gave Himself for man's sins Gal 1:4 but Jesus did not create anyone to be a sinner or cause man to sin against his will.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well, the identity of the wicked is an interesting conversation. And anyone who has had children knows they can be very deceptive, even while very young, even infants. They play you like a fiddle.

Psa 58:3 says "...they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

This means they would be able to speak and understand a language and even understand what it means to lie at the moment they are born which is not possible at all.

Doesn't mean speaking has to be understandable. The first thing any baby does is cry. They complain almost immediately upon birth.

Bad, bad, bad argument.

Please tell me what language do new borns speak?

Psa 58:6 "Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD. "

New born have teeth that are to be broken out? But wait, the Psalmist is not talking about humans but lions !

Your attempt at a literal interpretation = fail.

If Adam would have had any brains whatsoever he'd have ran straight for that tree first. So I suspect he really didn't have a clue what it was or contained. I'm not even sure it was a 'tree' in the literal sense.

Why would the tree not be a literal tree in a literal garden?

Paul stated the exact conditions of Adam's planting and of all of us since. In corruption, weakness and dishonor. How much glory can a wet compilation of dust have anyway?

Not much other than a passing image soon to be blowing in the winds.

God had something better in Mind anyway. A last Spiritual Adam. I doubt Adam would trade bodies if he had the 'choice.'

s

Man brought the corruption upon himself.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Man is made innocent as in without knowledge of good and evil, blameless. However, man being made of flesh was able to be corrupted when they partook of such knowledge. For God said, the day you eat of that fruit you will surely die.

Man was created good, pure, upright but corrupted himself when he ofhis own will decided to sin.

I think we are closer to agreement than not. The differences between us are more about semantics. I know we make choices but I am also sure that ignorance and knowledge has much to do with how we choose. Hence freewill exists or doesn't depending on how one defines the term.

Free will as I talk about means simply having the ability to chose between 2 or more options.

I think your analysis is well stated and the scripture you use is appropriate. Corruptible to me simply means that we are made of flesh, able to become corrupted in our ignornace of our station under God. While God for example is an Eternal Spirit, is Incorruptible, Holy and Eternal with all knowledge and immutable. Mankind indeed was in a perfect place for him in the garden where God put him. But as you have pointed out, man sought his own devices. I kind of look at it like man was fooled into trying to fix what was not broken.

I agree with you to a point here. Yes they were told not eat of the tree and it appears to me they believed God and obeyed accordingly for a time. But scripture does not say how long they lived in such obedience, only that they strayed after being tempted and lied to by the serpent. Obviously therefore, the obedience of Adam and Eve was based upon trusting in God's loving inentions towards them and this is what was indermined by Satan. Only after eating and seeing their error would they actually know for themselves that God was ever being truthful with them and Satan was the one who was lying.

True enough, but that does not change the fact that distrust of God's Character preceded the disobedience and that distrust was the product of a lie spoken by the serpent. That is why righteousness is by faith.

Yes from a mans point of view this appears to be true. But from God's point of view it is complete ignorance and foolishness to ever ponder the veracity of God's Holiness. Only the corrupted mind doubts one's own Maker.

My point in ths has been that God has NOT created man with a sinful nature or totally depraved where man was forced into a position by God to where he had no choice but to sin. Mn has brought all his problems upon himself by his own choice to sin.

The only problem with this reasoning is that we know that men crucified the Christ and persecuted the Apostles convinced they were doing the righteousness of God. Where is the free will to do or not do the will of God when men don't even know God nor His will?

It is not God's fault if men do not His will...."For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: ", Rom 1:20

That's simple. Since God is Holy, only an ignorant person could conclude otherwise.
They couldn't claim they weren't told, nor did they claim that. As said above it doesn't really matter what they were told since they were also told to the contrary by the serpent. The issue for them was who do you believe, who do you trust? Moreover, the scripture says the serpent was the wisest and most cunning of all of God's creatures. He was well able to outsmart Adam and Eve.

Ignorance is no excuse but Adam and Eve were not ignorant of God's law.

Once again, yes we do make choices. That is beside the point however when asking the question why we choose one way or the other. Choice is not simply a random act but rather is based upon a certain line of reasoning. Hence a wise man chooses differently than when he was an ignorant child.

By the way, thanks for talking with me Ernest T. Bass.

Having the ability to choose is why men are not born totally depraved or with a sinful nature. A man can choose to do well just as easily as he can choose to not do well. God said to Cain "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.', Gen 4:7. God shows us Cain had within himself the ability to choose to do well or not do well. God even tells Cain to rule over sin, something not possible if one were totally depraved or had a sin nature.


Thank you for your posts.