Are we born with a sin nature?

[BornAgain]

Hi BornAgain,

This still doesn't address Romans 12-19.

Romans 5:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,

- Davies

The "one man" was Adam, and the "disobedience" was the first sin.

the many were made sinners,—Adam's disobedience did not make them sinners, for the same one who made them sinners made them righteous. This certainly excludes Adam. [We should note carefully that the many were not sinners within themselves or by any act they performed. They were made sinners. If one is a sinner by his own act, he is so independently of anyone making him such.

He made them sinners through the disobedience of Adam. Before Adam's transgression they were not made sinners; after it they were. It is not said of Adam that he was made a sinner. He was actually one, and could not be made one. But up to the moment of being made sinners his posterity were not sinners as he was.

even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.—[The reference in "obedience" is to the death of "Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all." (1 Tim. 2:6.) "He humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross." (Phil. 2:8.) "The many" includes the whole posterity of Adam.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22.) The whole human family will be raised from the dead. Through the death of Christ the whole human family are to be constituted righteous to the extent, and for the sole purpose, of being raised from the dead.

They are made righteous to this end. By the sin of Adam the many were made sinners so far as to be subjected to death; by the obedience of Christ the many were made righteous so far as to be raised from the dead.

The object is to show that just so far as the whole posterity of Adam have been made sinners through Adam's transgression, so far as they all made righteous through the death of Christ; and since Adam's disobedience brings death, so Christ's obedience brings the resurrection—and all this without any reference whatever to personal merits or demerits of those affected. In other words, what was unconditionally lost in Adam is unconditionally gained in Christ.]
—Gospel Advocate Commentaries

 

[Davies]

The "one man" was Adam, and the "disobedience" was the first sin.

the many were made sinners,—Adam's disobedience did not make them sinners, for the same one who made them sinners made them righteous. This certainly excludes Adam. [We should note carefully that the many were not sinners within themselves or by any act they performed. They were made sinners. If one is a sinner by his own act, he is so independently of anyone making him such. God did not make the many sinners because of, or through, any act of their own.

He made them sinners through the disobedience of Adam. Before Adam's transgression they were not made sinners; after it they were. It is not said of Adam that he was made a sinner. He was actually one, and could not be made one. But up to the moment of being made sinners his posterity were not sinners as he was. They had committed no sin, except as through his sinning for them; and for that reason God made them sinners.]

even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.—[The reference in "obedience" is to the death of "Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all." (1 Tim. 2:6.) "He humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross." (Phil. 2:8.) "The many" includes the whole posterity of Adam.

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22.) The whole human family will be raised from the dead. Through the death of Christ the whole human family are to be constituted righteous to the extent, and for the sole purpose, of being raised from the dead.

They are made righteous to this end. By the sin of Adam the many were made sinners so far as to be subjected to death; by the obedience of Christ the many were made righteous so far as to be raised from the dead.

The object is to show that just so far as the whole posterity of Adam have been made sinners through Adam's transgression, so far as they all made righteous through the death of Christ; and since Adam's disobedience brings death, so Christ's obedience brings the resurrection—and all this without any reference whatever to personal merits or demerits of those affected. In other words, what was unconditionally lost in Adam is unconditionally gained in Christ.]
—Gospel Advocate Commentaries

Hi BornAgain,

I think I understand what the commentary was saying, but I have to disagree with the first line, "Adam's disobedience did not make them sinners." God didn't make Adam a sinner, but man, to include the descendants of Adam, were made sinners by Adam's one act of sin, thus we see that every person has a sin nature. That's what the Bible says in Romans 5:19.

Here is a further thought. In Romans 5:18, it says, "through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation..." If condemnation came to all men through the one man's offense, that means to everyone after Adam, including the babies who have done nothing evil or righteous.

- Davies

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You definitely misunderstood what I said. What I said was, "If man doesn't receive the sinful nature through birth," then Jesus could have been born of Joseph. As it was, Jesus didn't have an earthly father as you pointed out so He did not inherit the sinful nature.

According to Romans 5:12-19, it says that death spread to all men through the one man, Adam. A man could have lived a perfect life and not sin in the likeness of Adam, but he still would have died. Adam merited for you condemnation.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

All sinned in Adam.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I think I've said that sin was imputed, but I think we should be careful here to say the sin nature was passed down. It's a foregone conclusion that every man would sin after Adam and Eve. You don't hear about Abel's sin, yet he sacrificed an animal to God.

15 ... For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

16 ... For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

Adam merited for you condemnation. Jesus merits for you eternal life.

17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation...

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners...

This reads very plainly to me and the repetition by Paul is really an exclamation point. Our nature, status, condition is all because of the one man, Adam. Someone will say, 'That's not fair.' Right, but neither is having our sins paid for by Jesus.

- Davies

Rom 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. "

If what you say is true, then you have "all men" universally condemned but then that same "all men" universally saved.

"[judgment came] upon all men to condemnation" the same "all men" in this first phrase is the same "all men" in the second phrase "[the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life"

The "all men" in both phrases in verse 18 refer to the same people. So if all are born with Adam's sin then that same all wil have the free gift.

But Pauls' point in Rom 5:18 is that all men have received both condemnation and grace but neither condmenation or grace came unconditionally unto man. Condemnation came not because men are born sinners but because men choose to sin and grace came unto man for man chooses to obey by having faith. So condemnation come unto man conditinally for he chooses to sin and grace conditionally comes to man for he chooses to have faith that is required to access grace, Rom 5:2. Paul in v18 is essentially saying "benefits of the death of Christ are available to as many who are also affected by the fact that sin was introduced into the world".


ROm 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. "


Again, "the many" in both places refer to the same people. The context does not say the many were made sinners or made righteous by force or uncondtionally. Many are made sinners or made righteous conditionally due to choice. People choose to sin and made sinners Rom 5:12 and choose to have faith Rom 5:1,2 and made righteous.

If the many were made sinners by unconditionally inheriting Adam's sin that same many will be made righteous unconditionally and you have universal salvation.

 

[WitnessOfChristMyLord]

Romans 7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[smaller]

New borns are not capable of speaking any language much less lie. You have no valid argument here. Lk 13:32 was Herod really a four-legged furry mammal with a bushy tail?

Are baby lions wicked sinners?

 

[Davies]

Rom 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. "

If what you say is true, then you have "all men" universally condemned but then that same "all men" universally saved.

"[judgment came] upon all men to condemnation" the same "all men" in this first phrase is the same "all men" in the second phrase "[the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life"

The "all men" in both phrases in verse 18 refer to the same people. So if all are born with Adam's sin then that same all wil have the free gift.

But Pauls' point in Rom 5:18 is that all men have received both condemnation and grace but neither condmenation or grace came unconditionally unto man. Condemnation came not because men are born sinners but because men choose to sin and grace came unto man for man chooses to obey by having faith. So condemnation come unto man conditinally for he chooses to sin and grace conditionally comes to man for he chooses to have faith that is required to access grace, Rom 5:2. Paul in v18 is essentially saying "benefits of the death of Christ are available to as many who are also affected by the fact that sin was introduced into the world".


ROm 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. "


Again, "the many" in both places refer to the same people. The context does not say the many were made sinners or made righteous by force or uncondtionally. Many are made sinners or made righteous conditionally due to choice. People choose to sin and made sinners Rom 5:12 and choose to have faith Rom 5:1,2 and made righteous.

If the many were made sinners by unconditionally inheriting Adam's sin that same many will be made righteous unconditionally and you have universal salvation.

Ernest T. Bass,

I think Romans 16-17 clarifies the distinction between the act of disobedience and the act of righteousness and what they accomplish.
Romans 5:16-17

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)


One way they are different other than the obvious, one resulting in condemnation and the other life, is "death reigned through the one." We all die. But to "those who receive abundance of grace, they will reign through Jesus. Only those who receive the abundance of grace will be granted eternal life. Everyone else dies because condemnation came through the one man, Adam.


- Davies

 

[smaller]

God hated Esau before he sprung from the womb or made a single decision.

Poor Esau? Nope. There was zero Esau could have done to change Gods HATRED of him.

Romans 9:
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[for_his_glory]

The part I have trouble with is your first underlined statement. Conceived and born into a sinful world....so when you were conceived, were you conceived through sin or by a mother and father through love that wanted a child? Is that sinful?

Yes, we are born into a sinful world, but we do not inherit our mother and father's sins. You have children...were they conceived through sin or by love?

When they were babies and you first looked at them did you see the they had a sinful nature or did you look at them as innocent babies that you loved unconditionally. Did you look at your babies and think, oh my...they have a sinful nature?

First, no I never had any children as only God had His reason.
We were conceived by that of God fashioning us as He chose us before the foundation of the world, Psalms 119:73; Ephesians 1:4. No we do not inherit the sins of of Adam and Eve, but are prone to sin from birth until we do sin as flesh is flesh and is sinful as you can read in John 3:6,7. Even a baby gets angry when attention is not given to them right away and this anger in it's infancy grows into that of childhood when they throw fits of rage when they do not get their way and even fight with their friends and then this sin flesh carries over to adulthood as self will was from the beginning of birth as the flesh is sinful in needs to be redeemed of it's sin and brought back to that of Gods will. Why do you suppose in Matthew 19:13-15 Jesus said suffer little children and forbid them not to come unto me for of such is the kingdom of heaven. It's because Jesus knew that even a baby was a sinner in need of redemption as Jesus held them in his arms and laid his hands on them as he prayed for them. This is why babies are dedicated, not baptized, to God by their parents so that Jesus can forgive the sinful flesh in them to bring them up to a knowledge of Christ by their parents and the Church teaching them. We are conceived in a sinful world and born into one as flesh is flesh and Spirit is Spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The one who broadcasts moods and attitudes that are contrary to God. We are born neutral, but Satan's bombardments soon take hold. Notice that in the future, at the end of the Millenium, when Satan is released, how quickly he subverts people.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And this occurs after 1000 years of Jesus Christ's rule on the earth.

I do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth so this will not play out for me as what you are explaining and I will not go into why I do not believe as you can go to my website and click on Second Coming of Christ to see why as this is not the place to get into that.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Are baby lions wicked sinners?

"Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD."

It's figurative language, not literal young lions.

 

[for_his_glory]

You say "The first time we sin, which can only occur after birth" ..yet Psa 51:5 supposedly says one is a sinner at conception not at birth. This is one of the problems in taking both passages literally.



Rom 9:11 "(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil," ......so the unborn have done no good or evil so man is born innocent or neutral. Man is not a sinner till he sins is not righteous till he does righteousness.

You say " In Psalms 58 the first three verses are literal as the rest are metaphorically to make it's point."

The whole passage is speaking about the same thing, so verses 1-6 are all literal or all figurative. The "they" in verse 3 is the same "their" in verses 4 and 6.
Again in verse 3 what language are these new born speaking in order for them to tell lies?

In Romans 9:11 this is specifically talking about Isaac and Jacob, not every child.

Psalms 58 says they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies,
They go astray after being born as now they are prone to sin as the flesh will sin and as far as speaking lies that is not time specific when they do start, but would not be until they learn to speak.

 

[smaller]

"Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD."

It's figurative language, not literal young lions.

Oh, so it IS about human babies then?

lol

Let's go in a circle and arrive back at what the text itself says?

 

[smaller]

Every single person who has ever existed from the beginning of Adam exists in the same identical fashion as ADAM.

Adam was a 'natural' or 'flesh' man. He abode in a body fashioned of DUST.

That 'dust' was corruptible, weak, and subjected to dishonor.

This is also the condition of EVERY BABY who was ever born inclusive of yourSELF.

We are all born into temporary flesh that is subject to corruption, weakness and dishonor not one whit differently than that of ADAM and regardless of our 'age' or our 'beliefs.'

It is a matter of our fleshly birth and the conditions that are attached to the FLESH.

God's FINAL INTENTIONS are for a LAST ADAM in any case of measures. The flesh is what the flesh is:

A habitation of weakness, corruption, dishonor and the natural condition of every last individual who has ever lived.

To try to exempt 'babies' from these facts is futility or make those factual realities only a condition of our 'choices' is quite ridiculous.

s

 

[for_his_glory]

"Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD."

It's figurative language, not literal young lions.

I said the same thing, but you seemed to disagree with me that some was literal as in the first 3 vs. and the rest figurative except vs. 11 which is literal so which is it, all literal or just some parts being literal while the other vs. are figurative ?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest T. Bass,

I think Romans 16-17 clarifies the distinction between the act of disobedience and the act of righteousness and what they accomplish.
Romans 5:16-17

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)


One way they are different other than the obvious, one resulting in condemnation and the other life, is "death reigned through the one." We all die. But to "those who receive abundance of grace, they will reign through Jesus. Only those who receive the abundance of grace will be granted eternal life. Everyone else dies because condemnation came through the one man, Adam.


- Davies

Rom 5:17 "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"

The verse just says "death reigned by one" and does not say death reigns for all inheirted Adam's sin.

If the first part of the verse means we all have inherited Adam's sin, the second part of the verse must mean we all inherit the gift of righteousness. If we are all sinners in Adam then we must all be saved in Christ and you have universalism.

Yet death reigned through Adam for people choose to sin as Adam chose to sin, Rom 5:12. Those that receive the gift of life do so for they choose it by choosing to have faith, Rom 5;1,2

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

In Romans 9:11 this is specifically talking about Isaac and Jacob, not every child.

Psalms 58 says they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies,
They go astray after being born as now they are prone to sin as the flesh will sin and as far as speaking lies that is not time specific when they do start, but would not be until they learn to speak.

It would be true of all not just Jacob and Esau. No unborn is capable of doing either good or evil.

It does say they go astray not born astray. Going astray shows one own culpability and not being astray due to another's sins.

I agree they would not speak lies until they learn to speak so it is evident that Daivd is not talking about a literal new born speaking lies, but a person in his youth who has learned right form wrong and sins. Gen 8:21 "....for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth (not birth); neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. "

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

God hated Esau before he sprung from the womb or made a single decision.

Poor Esau? Nope. There was zero Esau could have done to change Gods HATRED of him.

Romans 9:
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

---Hate as used in the bible can mean love less cf Gen 29:30-31


---I do not know in the bible where God ever 'hated' the individual Esau. Paul's quote from 9:13 comes from Mal 1:1-4 where the prophet is talking about nations not indivudals. God loved Israel and 'hated' Edom.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Oh, so it IS about human babies then?

lol

Let's go in a circle and arrive back at what the text itself says?

He wrote "young lions". So is the context about literal lions?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I said the same thing, but you seemed to disagree with me that some was literal as in the first 3 vs. and the rest figurative except vs. 11 which is literal so which is it, all literal or just some parts being literal while the other vs. are figurative ?

Verse 3 uses figurative language when he says the new born speak lies. Of course the new cannot even speak a language much less speak lies.

 

[smaller]

---Hate as used in the bible can mean love less cf Gen 29:30-31

That's pretty funny. Jacob certainly did not hate Leah.

God did however HATE Esau as in HATE.

---I do not know in the bible where God ever 'hated' the individual Esau. Paul's quote from 9:13 comes from Mal 1:1-4 where the prophet is talking about nations not indivudals. God loved Israel and 'hated' Edom.

Gods every intention was, is and will be the removal of the flesh/natural man who's flesh is in weakness, corruption and dishonor whom 'every person' currently is in the flesh regardless of their 'choices' or 'age' or even their 'beliefs.'

None will dance past that graveyard of the flesh man.

God is no respecter of any person in this regards.

s