Bible Study ARE WE BORN WITH A SIN NATURE

[OzSpen]

You stated that children do not inherit the sin of their parents however in scripture and I could be incorrect but the sins of the father do get passed on to other generations unless it is broken or repented of by them or the parents. Deuteronomy 5: 9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me

Bondservant,

That applied to the Israelites. Did it apply to the Egyptians and the pagan nations around the Promised Land?

Does it apply to us today or have we inherited a sinful nature/original sin when Adam & Eve fell into sin?

Oz

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

Bondservant,

These are excellent questions that get to the heart of God's dealing with the sinful nature/original sin and the place of children in the kingdom. In my understanding, it also deals with the slaughter of unborn children in the womb.

In the Old Testament, there is a ray of light in an incident that is surrounded by sin, distress and disappointment. King David had committed adultery with Bathsheba and had arranged for the murder of Bathsheba’s husband, Uriah, on the battle field (see 2 Samuel, chapters 11 & 12). The scene was atrocious–everything that one could expect from a modern movie. A son was conceived through illicit sexual intercourse.

When confronted by the prophet Nathan, David confessed, “I have sinned against the Lord.” Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die” (2 Samuel 12:13-14).

The son became desperately ill. David was distraught and wept bitterly. He fasted and pleaded with God to restore the child to health. But the child died.

It is at this point that the Old Testament gives us a glimpse of what happens to children after death. It is only a snap-shot of the eternal future, but it is enough to give immense hope to Christian believers whose children have died.

David said, “Now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me” (2 Samuel 12:23, emphasis added).

David expected to see his son again–“not just a nameless, faceless soul without an identity, but that very child” [MacArthur (1996:138)]This is an assurance that believers will know people in heaven.

Oz

Bibliography:

James Montgomery Boice 1986. Foundations of the Christian Faith (revised in one volume). Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press.

John F. MacArthur 1996. The Glory of Heaven. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books.

I think that what you say gives great peace to many people I know that have lost children very young or were unable to even hold their children due to miscarriages and stillbirths. Though I do feel that it is not clear when it comes to abortions and that weighs heavily on my heart because I do feel that God in His love and compassion would not allow Satan to have a hold of so many souls.

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

Bondservant,

That applied to the Israelites. Did it apply to the Egyptians and the pagan nations around the Promised Land?

Does it apply to us today or have we inherited a sinful nature/original sin when Adam & Eve fell into sin?

Oz

I believe it to be both we have original sin from Adam and Eve therefore a sinful nature but I believe that the sins I commit open a stronghold in my life that affects my children as well what is called generational curses. For example if a father is adulterous and does not repent that spirit of adultery now has dominion in his life and that of his children thereby making that child susceptible to the same demonic influence.

 

[for_his_glory]

You stated that children do not inherit the sin of their parents however in scripture and I could be incorrect but the sins of the father do get passed on to other generations unless it is broken or repented of by them or the parents. Deuteronomy 5: 9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me

Deuteronomy chapter 5 starts out with the setting of the covenant between God and Moses from vs. 1-5. From vs. 6-21 Moses gives the commandments of God to the Israelites after their exodus. Vs, 7-9 Moses is giving God's law about having no other gods or graven images (a cult image that is venerated or worshipped) before the God of all creation. Moses is telling them that God is a jealous God as Moses is visiting (reminding) them of this same iniquity that their fathers of the third and fourth generation fell into.

This is not inherited sin like that of DNA, but of traditions of their fathers before them as being ancestral sin in which humanity has continued in stemming from Adam's and Eve's disobedience in the garden of Eden as they disobey God's first command about eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[for_his_glory]

I believe it to be both we have original sin from Adam and Eve therefore a sinful nature but I believe that the sins I commit open a stronghold in my life that affects my children as well what is called generational curses. For example if a father is adulterous and does not repent that spirit of adultery now has dominion in his life and that of his children thereby making that child susceptible to the same demonic influence.

I am truly on the fence if a child can be damned when it dies. I lean towards yes, but scripture is silent on this matter other than these scriptures below as God forgets some and has some killed.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. 7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Exodus 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

1 Samuel 15:1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

As we can clearly see by all these scriptures that not all children go to be with the Lord when they die. People want a feel good message, but God's word will not come back to Him void, but will accomplish what He pleases and it shall prosper in the thing whereto He sent it, Isaiah 55:11. There is no age of accountability found in scripture and God does not decide what baby goes to what family, but only breathes life into them making them a living soul.

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

All depends what a child is trained in, even in infancy will determine it's destination.

 

[OzSpen]

I am truly on the fence if a child can be damned when it dies. I lean towards yes, but scripture is silent on this matter other than these scriptures below as God forgets some and has some killed.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. 7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Exodus 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

1 Samuel 15:1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

As we can clearly see by all these scriptures that not all children go to be with the Lord when they die. People want a feel good message, but God's word will not come back to Him void, but will accomplish what He pleases and it shall prosper in the thing whereto He sent it, Isaiah 55:11. There is no age of accountability found in scripture and God does not decide what baby goes to what family, but only breathes life into them making them a living soul.

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

All depends what a child is trained in, even in infancy will determine it's destination.

FGH,

That doesn't answer the issue for a child's still birth. I have a couple in a Bible study I attend whose baby son died at birth. Where is he? In heaven or hell?

Or, is the Bible not clear? Quoting verses such as Prov 22:6 is irrelevant for such grieving families.

Oz

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

FGH,

That doesn't answer the issue for a child's still birth. I have a couple in a Bible study I attend whose baby son died at birth. Where is he? In heaven or hell?

Or, is the Bible not clear? Quoting verses such as Prov 22:6 is irrelevant for such grieving families.

Oz

I am not a great biblical scholar and I cannot name the exact scriptures or even know why God allows such things to happen to families but I do know that if we have the ability to see and hear and thereby come to know God we have no excuse to deny Gods sovereignty, but I think an unborn child such as a stillborn or miscarriage has not had this opportunity and therefore is not subject to the same judgement as one who is able. No I dont have undeniable proof of this or even scripture to support it but I believe that all children go to Heaven and one day I will know if I am wrong or right but for now I have faith that this is true.

 

[OzSpen]

I am not a great biblical scholar and I cannot name the exact scriptures or even know why God allows such things to happen to families but I do know that if we have the ability to see and hear and thereby come to know God we have no excuse to deny Gods sovereignty, but I think an unborn child such as a stillborn or miscarriage has not had this opportunity and therefore is not subject to the same judgement as one who is able. No I dont have undeniable proof of this or even scripture to support it but I believe that all children go to Heaven and one day I will know if I am wrong or right but for now I have faith that this is true.

Bondservant,

If you are interested, this is my assessment surrounding the issue of children and heaven: Children and heaven

Oz

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

Bondservant,

If you are interested, this is my assessment surrounding the issue of children and heaven: Children and heaven

Oz

Thank you for the link I read it but will take the time to look at those scriptures as well and perhaps next time have a better understanding to support what I am trying to say. Thank you again.

 

[JLB]

So the focus here shows the interaction that Eve had alone with Satan but what about Adam he did not interact with Satan so why did He eat of it knowing it was against what God has stated to them? Did Satan choose Eve to deceive because she came from Adam and not Adam because God created Adam solely of himself?

Adam, which is to say Adam’s physical body, was created from the dust of the earth.

Eve was created from Adam, who was created from the dust of the earth.

They both were created from the same substance.


Adam was the head and the one one in authority, as God have the commandment to him.


We know that Eve was given the commandment by Adam, and Satan knew it, as he began his enticing dialog with her, he set out to bring in question Adam’s God given authority, not God’s authority, but Adam’s authority.


Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”
Genesis 2:15-18


IOW, Satan sought to divide Eve and Adam, by calling into question Adam’s rightful place of authority in her life, and offering her something unique that Adam didn't have.


...did God really say not to eat of this tree, or is that what your husband told you?


Satan defiled and corrupted her mind to deceive her with the allusion of a place of authority that was not hers to have; the very thing that caused his own fall.


Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” Genesis 3:1


Enticing her to reject Adam’s authority is to cause her to reject God’s authority, which is the goal; Disobedience!


Now Satan says that You will be like God if you eat of tree, when in fact they would become like Satan: Disobedient!


And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Genesis 3:2-5


This is what the scripture calls “the lie”.


Go ahead and disobey God, you won’t die.


The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12


Key Verse:

• that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Is it possible that Eve was tempted with the idea to be like God the same sin that corrupted Satan and perhaps he convinced her that God was withholding something from them ?

Absolutely.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I am truly on the fence if a child can be damned when it dies. I lean towards yes, but scripture is silent on this matter other than these scriptures below as God forgets some and has some killed.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. 7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Exodus 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

1 Samuel 15:1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

As we can clearly see by all these scriptures that not all children go to be with the Lord when they die. People want a feel good message, but God's word will not come back to Him void, but will accomplish what He pleases and it shall prosper in the thing whereto He sent it, Isaiah 55:11. There is no age of accountability found in scripture and God does not decide what baby goes to what family, but only breathes life into them making them a living soul.

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

All depends what a child is trained in, even in infancy will determine it's destination.

I posted this earlier.



At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me. Matthew 18:1-5


Key Verse:

• unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

What does this say about how the Lord view little children?


again

• Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

FGH,

That doesn't answer the issue for a child's still birth. I have a couple in a Bible study I attend whose baby son died at birth. Where is he? In heaven or hell?

Or, is the Bible not clear? Quoting verses such as Prov 22:6 is irrelevant for such grieving families.

Oz

Do you think the firstborn of the Egyptians and the Amalek children and the sucklings will be with Christ in the New Jerusalem? I don't know.

Why does God say in Hosea 4:6 He will also forget there children? If God forgets their children, IMO, I see this as they will never be God's own. I don't know.

My husband and I have lost a child through a miscarriage and my husband and I did grieve. I would like to say our baby is with the Lord, but I do not want a feel good message from others that say the baby is, but want the truth as God gives it. Feel good messages that have no truth behind them can lead one to damnation if they have no truth found in them.

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

Do you think the firstborn of the Egyptians and the Amalek children and the sucklings will be with Christ in the New Jerusalem? I don't know.

Why does God say in Hosea 4:6 He will also forget there children? If God forgets their children, IMO, I see this as they will never be God's own. I don't know.

My husband and I have lost a child through a miscarriage and my husband and I did grieve. I would like to say our baby is with the Lord, but I do not want a feel good message from others that say the baby is, but want the truth as God gives it. Feel good messages that have no truth behind them can lead one to damnation if they have no truth found in them.

8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. Phillipians 4:8

To have faith in things that come from a pure heart is not something that can lead to damnation.
I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:10

It amazes me the people assume God only works within the realm of written unwritten, proven or unproven if that was the case Abraham would never have had the faith to follow God , Noah would not have built the Ark, having faith that God knows your heart and that your wish to see your child in Heaven can be grounds for damnation I dont believe to hold any truth.

 

[for_his_glory]

I posted this earlier.



At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me. Matthew 18:1-5


Key Verse:

• unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

What does this say about how the Lord view little children?


again

• Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

JLB

Jesus did say, suffer the little children to come unto me, and as a Godly parent we need to bring our babies to the Lord as we dedicate them to Him and that the whole body of Christ are to help instruct the child in the ways of the Lord, even from the moment they are born so they will not go astray after birth.

The Israelite children were also children of promise as they to would come into the land with their parents and also possess it, Deuteronomy 1:39. This also brings into question about the children of the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. I would think that since God turned away from Dan and Ephraim He would also forget their children like what He said in Hosea 4:6 and having all the children of Amalek and the first born of the Egyptians killed.

 

[for_his_glory]

8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. Phillipians 4:8

To have faith in things that come from a pure heart is not something that can lead to damnation.
I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:10

It amazes me the people assume God only works within the realm of written unwritten, proven or unproven if that was the case Abraham would never have had the faith to follow God , Noah would not have built the Ark, having faith that God knows your heart and that your wish to see your child in Heaven can be grounds for damnation I dont believe to hold any truth.

Did the children, or even their parents among the Egyptians or the Amalek stand fast in the Lord? Did they have the same mind in the Lord? Did they rejoice in the Lord? No, as they were yokefellow of Satan who works through those who are enemies of God as even their children and sucklings have also become the enemies of God.

Philippians 4:1-8 is about those who are God's own and stand fast in the Lord. Their names are written in the Lamb's book of life along with their children. Those whose names, including their children, that are not found in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 20:15.

Let's not also forget about the children of Dan and Ephraim who are part of the twelve tribes of Israel as they and their families turned idol worshiping and allowed God to turn away from them.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

Did the children, or even their parents among the Egyptians or the Amalek stand fast in the Lord? Did they have the same mind in the Lord? Did they rejoice in the Lord? No, as they were yokefellow of Satan who works through those who are enemies of God as even their children and sucklings have also become the enemies of God.

Philippians 4:1-8 is about those who are God's own and stand fast in the Lord. Their names are written in the Lamb's book of life along with their children. Those whose names, including their children, that are not found in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 20:15.

Let's not also forget about the children of Dan and Ephraim who are part of the twelve tribes of Israel as they and their families turned idol worshiping and allowed God to turn away from them.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Thus by you being a believer it would apply to you and that was my intent a believer that looks towards those things that are right in the eyes of the Lord and again a believers heart if you are not a believer that goes without saying . You argue a moot point if you are not a believer then correct you are condemned regardless of what you think but if you are then only God can weigh our faith not man. And previously I had stated that children cannot be judged under the precepts of a believer that has the capacity and ability to see and hear so it still stands that they should not be held accountable to damnation not like those that have had the opportunity to reject Christ and his teachings of their own freewill.

 

[OzSpen]

Do you think the firstborn of the Egyptians and the Amalek children and the sucklings will be with Christ in the New Jerusalem? I don't know.

Why does God say in Hosea 4:6 He will also forget there children? If God forgets their children, IMO, I see this as they will never be God's own. I don't know.

My husband and I have lost a child through a miscarriage and my husband and I did grieve. I would like to say our baby is with the Lord, but I do not want a feel good message from others that say the baby is, but want the truth as God gives it. Feel good messages that have no truth behind them can lead one to damnation if they have no truth found in them.

FHG,

This was the Master's assessment: 'Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"' (Matt 19:14 NIV).

Jesus did not say, 'For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these - except the children of Egyptians, Amalekites, pagans, miscarriages and abortions'.

This evidence, along with King David and the death of his son (2 Sam 12:23 NIV), is strong evidence that all children will enter God's kingdom. This is one hint in the question: 'Will not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?' (Gen 18:25 NIV).

We know God is a merciful, gracious and just Triune God.

This leads to the question of when children move to a point of being responsible for their sins - commonly known as the age of accountability.

Matt 19:14 is the closest I've seen of a biblical text that tells about heaven for children. However, I've not found any specific text that teaches the age of accountability.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

Thus by you being a believer it would apply to you and that was my intent a believer that looks towards those things that are right in the eyes of the Lord and again a believers heart if you are not a believer that goes without saying . You argue a moot point if you are not a believer then correct you are condemned regardless of what you think but if you are then only God can weigh our faith not man. And previously I had stated that children cannot be judged under the precepts of a believer that has the capacity and ability to see and hear so it still stands that they should not be held accountable to damnation not like those that have had the opportunity to reject Christ and his teachings of their own freewill.

I'm not talking about those who are Christ own and their children. I am talking about the enemies of God and their children. Big difference between who are God's own and who are not no matter what the age is.

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

I'm not talking about those who are Christ own and their children. I am talking about the enemies of God and their children. Big difference between who are God's own and who are not no matter what the age is.

I stated all children would be exempt from damnation due to not having the maturity to be held accountable. I made no separation in regards to children because I do not judge a child by the actions of its parents but when they are of age to be held accountable then yes . Infants born or unborn and children within a certain age range in my opinion are not held to the same standard as one that has the ability to choose whom they shall follow Christ or the enemy. This again is only my opinion and belief.