Bible Study ARE WE BORN WITH A SIN NATURE

[for_his_glory]

I see that from the context that this passing on of iniquity was was associated with idolatry of some kind.

I believe in Christ, we can repent on behalf of our forefathers that were involved in this and cut off this in our family line.

This seems to be one of the promises of the New Covenant.


You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Deuteronomy 5:7-10



The LORD is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.’ Numbers 14:18



The Good News —


In those days they shall say no more:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.
A New Covenant
“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. Jeremiah 31:29-33





JLB

Of course idolatry has everything to do with sin being in this world. Enticement and temptation has always been the forerunner of the falling away beginning with Adam and Eve. But thank God for His grace and mercy that through His Son Christ Jesus we can reconcile our sin and become righteous again by God's righteousness through the Spiritual rebirth from above.

 

[for_his_glory]

Is there a difference between being born a sinner
and being born with the sin nature?

IOW,,,do you believe a 3 year old can sin?

Sorry, I came to this thread so late....

I see there is a difference as none of us were created to sin, but all through freewill have the capacity to sin from birth. Let's look at the insidiously behavior of a child, even in infancy. A baby cries for attention even though it is not hungry or in need of a diaper change. This behavior cries out, "it's all about my wants".

We don't normally think about this type of behavior. A baby grows and will take tantrums, be selfish with their toys and are disobedient to their parents even speaking lies when they can talk. Did their parents teach them all of this or was it their nature to sin?

 

[WIP]

I see there is a difference as none of us were created to sin, but all through freewill have the capacity to sin from birth. Let's look at the insidiously behavior of a child, even in infancy. A baby cries for attention even though it is not hungry or in need of a diaper change. This behavior cries out, "it's all about my wants".

We don't normally think about this type of behavior. A baby grows and will take tantrums, be selfish with their toys and are disobedient to their parents even speaking lies when they can talk. Did their parents teach them all of this or was it their nature to sin?

This is an example of sin nature as I understand it.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are you saying we are not born with a sin nature?

But then you say the sin nature is the existing nature of the flesh as by one man sin entered into the world....

Isn't the above a conflict of ideas?

I believe God created us with freewill, but did not create us with a sin nature as that would go against being made in His image of love. God says that all He created is good and pleasing to Him. The sin nature, or our nature to sin, first came by Adam who sinned against God causing sin to enter into the world (by one man sin entered into the world) and that same sin has been handed down to every generation since his time.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I read this verse as saying I was shapened in my mothers womb within a sinful world and within this sinful world my mother conceived me.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

This verse is speaking only about the wicked who go astray from birth and will sin as soon as they are capable of it, which comes in infancy. A child's temper and the actions caused by their temper starts at birth. They will continue to be estranged from God unless they are trained up by Godly parents.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sorry FHG...

I think you're saying that we DO NOT have a sin nature at birth.
So when do we get this sin nature?

I agree that we do not inherit Adam's sin.
What we inherit is the EFFECT of his sin.

We are only responsible for our own sins...
not the sins of our fathers.

Deuteronomy 24:16
“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Nowhere in the N.T. does it state that our fathers have any responsibility for our sins and V V....

We are born with a sin nature as I never said anything different from the beginning of the OP, but we were not created with one, but only freewill.

 

[GodsGrace]

I see there is a difference as none of us were created to sin, but all through freewill have the capacity to sin from birth. Let's look at the insidiously behavior of a child, even in infancy. A baby cries for attention even though it is not hungry or in need of a diaper change. This behavior cries out, "it's all about my wants".

We don't normally think about this type of behavior. A baby grows and will take tantrums, be selfish with their toys and are disobedient to their parents even speaking lies when they can talk. Did their parents teach them all of this or was it their nature to sin?

I don't like how you worded the question but my answer is
Yes, it is their nature to sin.

Although, at that age it is NOT sin.

You didn't answer the question directly so it doesn't help me to understand your position.
The question was: Can a 3 year old sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe God created us with freewill, but did not create us with a sin nature as that would go against being made in His image of love. God says that all He created is good and pleasing to Him. The sin nature, or our nature to sin, first came by Adam who sinned against God causing sin to enter into the world (by one man sin entered into the world) and that same sin has been handed down to every generation since his time.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I read this verse as saying I was shapened in my mothers womb within a sinful world and within this sinful world my mother conceived me.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

This verse is speaking only about the wicked who go astray from birth and will sin as soon as they are capable of it, which comes in infancy. A child's temper and the actions caused by their temper starts at birth. They will continue to be estranged from God unless they are trained up by Godly parents.

I think we agree but the wording is different....

Let's see if you agree with the following: (it takes your statements one by one)

1. God created us with free will.

2. God did not create us with a sin nature--- Adam and Eve were free of a sin nature.

3. God created everything good.

4. Adam fell and so since he represented all of humanity,,,he caused us all to be in a fallen condition.

5. Disagree. Adam's sin was not handed down to each generation. He and he alone was responsible for his sin. The EFFECT of his sin was handed down to every generation after him. That EFFECT IS the sin nature.

6, We are born sinners,,,but cannot claim that title until we actually sin. Again...is it possible for a 3 year old to sin? What is more correct to say is that we are born with a sin nature...our nature tends toward sin. We are born lost and need salvation.

7. Psalm 51:5 is speaking of David being conceived with original sin already in him,,,he was conceived by a fallen person and is fallen himself. I don't read anything there about the world.

8. Psalm 58:3 is speaking of certain persons...I don't think this passage could be used to support what we're speaking of --- I might be wrong about this. But I don't think so...we are ALL born with the capability and TENDENCY toward sin....not just these persons.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are born with a sin nature as I never said anything different from the beginning of the OP, but we were not created with one, but only freewill.

So are you saying that:
We are born with a sin nature.....
But it is not God that gave to Adam and Eve a sin nature.
??

 

[OzSpen]

I know and I expected you might bring this up. Likewise, I'm sure you can expect that my reply could be that there is nothing in the context that indicates they were not Jewish.

Okay, with that said, in verse 1 of chapter 13, it provides us with the location as the region of Judea (NKJV). Is it not reasonable to deduce they were most likely Jewish children?

That's still shadowboxing.

 

[WIP]

The sin nature, or our nature to sin, first came by Adam who sinned against God causing sin to enter into the world (by one man sin entered into the world) and that same sin has been handed down to every generation since his time.

I'm struggling with this. Are you saying that the sin nature somehow developed in Adam? Where did it come from? Or...did the sin nature just manifest itself in Adam's offspring?

 

[WIP]

That's still shadowboxing.

So then, is your answer to my question a no, it is not reasonable to deduce the children were most likely Jewish from the text?

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't like how you worded the question but my answer is Yes, it is their nature to sin. Although, at that age it is NOT sin. You didn't answer the question directly so it doesn't help me to understand your position. The question was: Can a 3 year old sin?

I don't like how you worded the question but my answer is
Yes, it is their nature to sin.

Although, at that age it is NOT sin.

You didn't answer the question directly so it doesn't help me to understand your position.
The question was: Can a 3 year old sin?

I'm sorry. I guess my question to you in post # 122 probably wasn't clear.
Yes, a three year old can sin.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think we agree but the wording is different....

Let's see if you agree with the following: (it takes your statements one by one)

1. God created us with free will.

2. God did not create us with a sin nature--- Adam and Eve were free of a sin nature.

3. God created everything good.

4. Adam fell and so since he represented all of humanity,,,he caused us all to be in a fallen condition.

5. Disagree. Adam's sin was not handed down to each generation. He and he alone was responsible for his sin. The EFFECT of his sin was handed down to every generation after him. That EFFECT IS the sin nature.

6, We are born sinners,,,but cannot claim that title until we actually sin. Again...is it possible for a 3 year old to sin? What is more correct to say is that we are born with a sin nature...our nature tends toward sin. We are born lost and need salvation.

7. Psalm 51:5 is speaking of David being conceived with original sin already in him,,,he was conceived by a fallen person and is fallen himself. I don't read anything there about the world.

8. Psalm 58:3 is speaking of certain persons...I don't think this passage could be used to support what we're speaking of --- I might be wrong about this. But I don't think so...we are ALL born with the capability and TENDENCY toward sin....not just these persons.

1-4 we agree

5. by one man (Adam), sin entered into the world, Romans 5:12

6. yes, a three year old can and will sin. The rest we are saying the same thing.

7. I disagree. In conception there is no sin until one is brought into a sinful world where the nature to sin begins.

8. This verse speaks of the wicked at birth that go astray so yes, it is relevant to the topic. I already gave what I believed this verse means.

 

[for_his_glory]

So are you saying that:
We are born with a sin nature.....
But it is not God that gave to Adam and Eve a sin nature.
??

Yes, we are born with a sin nature (nature to sin), but created with freewill like Adam and Eve, but chose to disobey God's command.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm struggling with this. Are you saying that the sin nature somehow developed in Adam? Where did it come from? Or...did the sin nature just manifest itself in Adam's offspring?

It didn't develop in Adam, but through his disobedience to God's command as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12.

 

[OzSpen]

So then, is your answer to my question a no, it is not reasonable to deduce the children were most likely Jewish from the text?

You are arguing from silence when not a word is stated in the context that Jesus was speaking of Jewish children. Do you know what that is called?

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm sorry. I guess my question to you in post # 122 probably wasn't clear.
Yes, a three year old can sin.

Sorry FHG,,,I didn't see the answer.

OK.
So if a 3 year old can sin...
what happens if he dies?
He cannot know to accept Jesus..
so he goes to hell?

Sorry for the stark question...
but why beat around the bush?

 

[JLB]

I believe God created us with freewill, but did not create us with a sin nature

Adam was created by God.

We are procreated through natural birth.

This is how the sin from Adam is passed on to all people.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

1-4 we agree

5. by one man (Adam), sin entered into the world, Romans 5:12

6. yes, a three year old can and will sin. The rest we are saying the same thing.

7. I disagree. In conception there is no sin until one is brought into a sinful world where the nature to sin begins.

8. This verse speaks of the wicked at birth that go astray so yes, it is relevant to the topic. I already gave what I believed this verse means.

Above you are also answering my post to y ou just before this one...(about a 3 year old sinning).

So let's take one item at a time and see what we come up with:

Wondering:
5. Disagree. Adam's sin was not handed down to each generation. He and he alone was responsible for his sin. The EFFECT of his sin was handed down to every generation after him. That EFFECT IS the sin nature.


ForHisGlory:
5. by one man (Adam), sin entered into the world, Romans 5:12

If you notice it says that SIN entered the world.
Do you find a difference between:
SIN
SINNING

For instance, the difference could be found in 1 John....
1 John 1:8-9 IF we say we have no SIN....If we confess our SINS...
these are sins...we commit sins every day for which we ask forgiveness.

1 John 3:9 ... No one born of God PRACTICES SIN...this is living in sin...sinning.

Now, the question is this....even though we are born again...we do not LIVE IN SIN,
however, WE STILL SIN.

What do you believe makes us sin?
The N.T. tells us that it is our sin nature
John 3:19-20
This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.



Romans 5:14-17
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.

NO ONE has sinned like Adam sinned.
HE sinned for all mankind..being the head of mankind.
WE, OTOH, sin only for ourselves.
I am not responsible for your sins,,,
but Adam IS responsible for our sins....

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

We have all sinned, personally, and have fallen short of the glory of God.
Personally is implied in the verse.

Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

See also:

Romans 6:17
For if by the transgression of the one...DEATH reigned THROUGH THE ONE....

Death reigned through Adam.....
No where does it say we are responsible for HIS sin...in fact Romans 5:14 states we did NOT sin as Adam did.

Romans 5:18
...Through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men...

Again, Adam's transgression resulted in condemnation.....
it does not say that we are responsible for his sin, but are CONDEMNED because of it...its EFFECTS are upon us.

cont'd

 

[GodsGrace]

for_his_glory

You stated:

6. yes, a three year old can and will sin. The rest we are saying the same thing.

How could a 3 year old sin if he does not now what sin is?
Are we all responsible for a sin that we are not aware is a sin, even adults?

1 Timothy 1:13
even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;

If we act ignorantly, we cannot be responsible for our sin.
unsaved persons are unsaved due to unbelief....not due to sinning.
Believers ask forgiveness for sinning...but it is not possible to ask forgiveness for a sin you do not know you committed. We are forgiven for it anyway....


Jesus said we must be like children if we are to enter the Kingdom of God.
Was He mistaken?
Did he not know that children "sin"?

When a child understands sin and reaches the age of accountability, THEN he becomes responsible for his own sins.