Bible Study ARE WE BORN WITH A SIN NATURE

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

What is the difference between 'sin' and 'sinning'?

Oz

Sin is the noun and means a thing....
sin is a thing.....
it's what is in us from the beginning...
it is the sin nature.
We are born IN SIN....not that our parents sinned,,,,but we already have SIN in us when we're born...
some call this the sin nature
some call it the flesh
some call it concupiscense.

Sinning is a verb...it's what we do when we miss the target.
When we fall short....when we disobey,,,etc.

Sin is a noun.
sinning is a verb.

 

[stovebolts]

SB,

I don't think it 'grossly misrepresents' Ps 51:5. How was David conceived? We know his father was Jesse but who was his mother? Was David conceived by his father's and mother's adulterous relationship? What evidence do we have to support this?

See: Did David's mother commit adultery?

Or, have I missed something here?

Oz

Hi Oz,
First, the article you posted was plagerized from chabad.

Nitzevet, Mother of David - The bold voice of silence

He was Israel’s mightiest warrior, revered by friend and foe; yet for the first 28 years of his life he was a lowly outcast . . . The secret story behind the mysterious circumstances of King David’s birth.

www.chabad.org

I quoted your first post because in relation to Psalm 51 you said "we" in what I understood to be "we are sinful at conception". Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

As both our links indicate, Psalms 51:5 is about the drama that surrounded David's conception. David played no role in his conception and this Psalm in no way indicates we are born sinful. I would further assert that to use Psalm 51:5 to affirm the sinful nature in David is to take the story out of it's proper context, thus making the story null in order to systematically build a doctrine not supported by proper biblical exegesis and redaction.

 

[WIP]

WIP,

You missed highlighting one phrase that is important, 'And great multitudes followed Him'. It doesn't say 'great multitudes who were Jews followed Him'.

I consider you are putting something into the text that is not there.

Of Judea, the Encyclopedia Britannica (Judaea entry) states:

If this historical information is correct, the area of Judaea in the time of Jesus (ca. 4BC) had other nations/tribes occupying the area.

Oz

Okay, I see your point but at this time in my walk I am still convinced that the multitudes that came to Jesus were not pagan but Jewish. The text is not 100% clear on this point but I believe it is clear enough for me at this time.

 

[WIP]

FHG,

I'd like to throw in some biblical teaching that may help us to better understand children and hell.

Some ask the honest question, “How can a God of love make eternal hell the punishment for all unbelievers?” Some have committed horrendous crimes and engaged in disgusting immorality, while others have not done that. Is it fair for God to treat all people in hell the same and give them equal punishment?

From the biblical evidence, I'm convinced there are degrees of punishment in hell. Consider this evidence:

1. Since God is “the righteous Judge” (2 Tim. 4:8), we would expect that sinners would be punished according to the extent of their sin. Children fit into this category. This is what the Bible affirms.

2. Matthew 10:14-15 states, “And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town” (ESV).

So it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than for those who do not welcome and listen to the apostles. This is an amazing statement: it is going to be fairer for those who committed sexual immorality in Sodom & Gomorrah than for those who rejected the gospel. What is this saying about punishment in hell?

3. A similar affirmation of degrees of punishment can be found in Matthew 11:21-24,



4. Luke 12:47-48 speaks of many blows and few blows:



Would this be adequate biblical reasoning to say that the sins of young children are less than for adults and God in his grace and mercy will not punish these children like those who are more depraved?

Oz

I would also add that, like beauty, what is fair is in the eye of the beholder. God's ways are far above ours.

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8-9 NKJV

 

[WIP]

Sin is the noun and means a thing....
sin is a thing.....
it's what is in us from the beginning...
it is the sin nature.
We are born IN SIN....not that our parents sinned,,,,but we already have SIN in us when we're born...
some call this the sin nature
some call it the flesh
some call it concupiscense.

Sinning is a verb...it's what we do when we miss the target.
When we fall short....when we disobey,,,etc.

Sin is a noun.
sinning is a verb.

This seems to have some clarity for me but I want to take it a little further. Are you saying that we have sin dwelling in us through inheritance dating back to Adam? In other words, as we inherited our physical appearance we inherited sin, our flesh, or our sin nature?

 

[JLB]

Okay, I see your point but at this time in my walk I am still convinced that the multitudes that came to Jesus were not pagan but Jewish. The text is not 100% clear on this point but I believe it is clear enough for me at this time.

Absolutely they were Jewish.

There were a couple of instances where He addresses Gentiles and the scripture indicates such.




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Sin is the noun and means a thing....
sin is a thing.....
it's what is in us from the beginning...
it is the sin nature.
We are born IN SIN....not that our parents sinned,,,,but we already have SIN in us when we're born...
some call this the sin nature
some call it the flesh
some call it concupiscense.

Sinning is a verb...it's what we do when we miss the target.
When we fall short....when we disobey,,,etc.

Sin is a noun.
sinning is a verb.

wondering,

'Sin' also can be used as a verb, e.g. I sin.
'Sinning' is not actually a verb, but a participle. It can have a verbal function.

A participle is a verb form that can be used (1) as an adjective, (2) to create verb tense, or (3) to create the passive voice.

There are two types of participles:

• Present participle (ending -ing)
• Past participle (usually ending -ed, -d, -t, -en, or -n).

(information courtesy Grammar Monster)

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

This seems to have some clarity for me but I want to take it a little further. Are you saying that we have sin dwelling in us through inheritance dating back to Adam? In other words, as we inherited our physical appearance we inherited sin, our flesh, or our sin nature?

Right.
When we're born we already have the sin nature...this is what makes us tend toward sinning.
It is inherited through Adam. When he caused mankind to fall by his disobedience to God,,,,he became separated from God and actually became a slave to satan....satan bought mankind.

You can find this in one of the Atonement Theories --- I'll put a link.
Jesus BOUGHT US BACK from satan. He freed us from satan's grip.
This is the ransom theory if I remember correctly - please check.

Our physical appearance is the same, and that was also inherited.
God did say in Genesis that each of what He created would reproduce itself.
Genesis 1:21, 24, 25
man after man, animal after animal, plant after plant...each living thing reproduces itself.

But Adam fell, and the sin nature became a part of him. This is also passed on to us.
Romans 5:12-14 explains this well.
12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.


Ephesians 2:3
3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

So we did not inherit Adam's PERSONAL sin,,,,we are each responsible only for our own sins....but we inherited his SIN NATURE. Some call this the flesh.

Adam died in spirit and also physical death came upon him.
We also are now born dead in spirit and will eventually die physically.
These are the EFFECTS we suffer because of Adam's sin.
His disobedience is not passed down to us,,,that is his personal sin.
but his sin nature is......he has infected all of us.

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

'Sin' also can be used as a verb, e.g. I sin.
'Sinning' is not actually a verb, but a participle. It can have a verbal function.

A participle is a verb form that can be used (1) as an adjective, (2) to create verb tense, or (3) to create the passive voice.

There are two types of participles:

• Present participle (ending -ing)
• Past participle (usually ending -ed, -d, -t, -en, or -n).

(information courtesy Grammar Monster)

Oz

Correct.
But I wasn't explaining English!
Sin is a noun
Sinning is a present participle

It's like the word BELIEVE.
BELIEF is a noun.
BELIEVE is a verb...

But in theology BELIEF also has an action that is understood to be a part of it.
But not in English.

Anyway, how could you remember all this????
I've forgotten A LOT!

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

I'd like to throw in some biblical teaching that may help us to better understand children and hell.

Some ask the honest question, “How can a God of love make eternal hell the punishment for all unbelievers?” Some have committed horrendous crimes and engaged in disgusting immorality, while others have not done that. Is it fair for God to treat all people in hell the same and give them equal punishment?

From the biblical evidence, I'm convinced there are degrees of punishment in hell. Consider this evidence:

1. Since God is “the righteous Judge” (2 Tim. 4:8), we would expect that sinners would be punished according to the extent of their sin. Children fit into this category. This is what the Bible affirms.

2. Matthew 10:14-15 states, “And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town” (ESV).

So it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than for those who do not welcome and listen to the apostles. This is an amazing statement: it is going to be fairer for those who committed sexual immorality in Sodom & Gomorrah than for those who rejected the gospel. What is this saying about punishment in hell?

3. A similar affirmation of degrees of punishment can be found in Matthew 11:21-24,



4. Luke 12:47-48 speaks of many blows and few blows:



Would this be adequate biblical reasoning to say that the sins of young children are less than for adults and God in his grace and mercy will not punish these children like those who are more depraved?

Oz

God is a loving God that would that none should perish, but yet His judgements are righteous as only He knows those who are His own.

1. 2 Timothy 4:8 Paul is speaking about the crown of righteousness God has laid up for him and all who will love the Lord at His appearing. Not all will love the Lord at His appearing as they have rejected Christ and God will forget them and their children, Hosea 4:6.

2-4. Matthew 10:14, 15 Jesus is sending the Disciples out into Jewish lands as they were only sent to preach to the Jews as the times of the Gentiles had not yet come until Paul's conversion. The judgement will be greater for the Jews as they killed the prophets and stoned those who God sent to them, Matthew 23:37. What Jesus spoke in vs. 15 God had already proclaimed in Lamentations 4:6 as many of the Israelites were/are without excuse for rejecting Christ in whom God sent to them. The people of Sodom and Gomorrha never had any one preach to them, but that is no excuse either as we see all before the flood that perished, except for Noah who kept faith in God. There were no Jew or Gentile at that time, but yet both will be damned in judgement and cast into the lake of fire.

God's judgement is more tolerable for those who have never heard the preaching of the word of God as no one ever came to them. But yet no one, no matter what generation beginning with Adam are without excuse. How can God receive all children to Him when He called for the Egyptian and Amalek children to be slaughtered and also saying He will forget those children of those parents who reject Him. Faith comes by hearing the word of God and those who reject God and His Son Christ Jesus are none of His own even if they seem to be good people, but yet they and their children do not have the love of the Lord in them. And for all this reasoning I do not see all children going to be with the Lord.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[OzSpen]

Correct.
But I wasn't explaining English!
Sin is a noun
Sinning is a present participle

It's like the word BELIEVE.
BELIEF is a noun.
BELIEVE is a verb...

But in theology BELIEF also has an action that is understood to be a part of it.
But not in English.

Anyway, how could you remember all this????
I've forgotten A LOT!

wondering,

The participle has a similar function to English in Greek. I couldn't write a 480pp dissertation without a keen eye for English grammar. My supervisor was a master at keeping me on track with punctuation.

How can I remember this English grammar? I've kept a check on it all my life since high school. See my article: Language police take aim: English grammar takes a nose dive in importance.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

We are all born with a nature to sin because of the fall of Adam in whom sin entered into the world as we are born of flesh and flesh has that capacity to sin as that is it's nature now by one man in whom sin entered into the world, Romans 5:12.

Sorry FHG,
Been busy and I wanted to give this some thought.
Agreed.

The nature to sin begins at birth when we are made living souls through the breath God breathes in us, only when we are born as in conception we have no breath. Our soul is the natural part of our thinking, feeling and acting from the time we are born into this world.

Agreed.

We are also born of flesh being carnal and separate from the Spirit of God and not subject to His laws, Romans 8:7, 8. This is why Psalms 58:3 says the wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The nature of the flesh (sin nature) activates at birth as a child acts on their impulses. A baby doesn't have the thinking skills to purposefully defy their parents, but does exert control over what is their own world. This is an act of defiance from birth to around three years being part of their development. A baby learns from the environment it is brought up in and in many cases will not depart from what it has been taught by the words and actions of their parents. That is why a child needs Godly nourishment from birth so they will not turn away from God.

Proverbs 22:6 says, Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
[/QUOTE]
I agree.
The most important years in a child's life are 1 to 5 years of age...at that point the child's character is pretty much completed (not that it cannot change, but it's unlikely).

I don't understand why you quoted Isaiah 5:20,,,,but OK:

 

[GodsGrace]

Not beating around the bush, but only giving my views on this. Like I said, scripture gives no absolutes on this. I can only speculate if God commands children and sucklings to be killed I can only see them as the same enemies of God as their parents are.

I think where we disagree (and it's an important disagreement) is regarding children.

There are a couple of reasons why this is important:

1. Do children then need to be baptized?

2. Was the N.T. aimed at an audience of children or of adults?
Was Jesus addressing children that could not even understand what He was saying?

3. Are we then saved by our merit and not by God's mercy?
If an adult that has committed many sins can be saved by God's mercy...
how could an innocent child NOT be saved by God's mercy?

4. Are we responsible for sins we are not aware of?
Children are not aware of sin.

I think this is the dividing point...not whether or not we're born with the sin nature...
I think we agree that we are...the question becomes WHEN DO WE BECOME RESPONSIBLE for it?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, there is a difference between sin and sinning. One does not become a sinner until they sin for the first time even if they do not recognize sin at first. There is unwillfull sin and willful sin, Hebrews 10:26, 27.

No one that is Spiritually born again would practice sin after they are given truth, but yet we do find ourselves falling short at times. The reason for this is the mortal/flesh (sin nature) part of us will always continue to sin if we are not walking in the Spirit, Galatians 5:16, 17.

Of course we are not responsible for Adam's sin, but only our own. We have all sinned like Adam by being disobedient to God's commands. Adam's sin of disobedience is what has entered into the hearts of everyone being born after him from generation to generation. Adam received one command, Noah was given seven commands, Moses was given 613 commands, but yet mere mortal man can not keep all 613, even the greatest that is love.

Romans 5:14 death reigned from Adam to Moses until God laid out all His commandments and gave them to Moses. Man is no longer without excuse as what the law could not do, Christ came to fulfill that which was in the law so now all who will believe on Him will have eternal life with Him.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Read the whole chapter that leads up to Paul is saying in these two verses.)

FHG,,,,once again I do believe that we agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

With all due respect to you as my sister in Christ you are taking everything I said and twisting it all around. All I can say is go back and read the OP and all my post from there on. When you jump in the middle of a discussion you miss the beginning parts.

What am I twisting?
I realize I missed a lot from the start of this thread.
I'm here because I do believe this is an important discussion.
Those of the reformed faith believe that a baby can go to heaven or to hell because God has already so predestined them to be saved or not and so He knows from the beginning if the child would be saved or not.

This is not what mainline Christianity believes. We believe that there is an age of accountability at which time each person becomes responsible for their own sins.

I do understand now that you do NOT believe we are imputed with Adam's sin, so I apologize if I credited you with that statement when I first came on here.

At this point all I am doing is repeating myself trying to answer all your questions. I deal with absolutes of what is written in scripture and there is no absolutes that say all babies go to heaven so I would not even dare to say yes or not on this as only God knows. Even the early church fathers can not agree with each other all the time so I will stick to what has already been written comparing scripture with scripture, OT with NT and let the Holy Spirit help me work it all out.

I certainly hope that by the time of the N.T. God had revealed Himself much more clearly than in the O.T. What could be more clear then seeing Jesus in the flesh?

Also, I'm sorry that the Early Father's are not respected as much as they should be...after all, they're the ones that put together our bible and from whom come all our doctrine that created what Christianity is: The Trinity, The Hypostatic Union, The incarnation and resurrection, the doctrine of Justification and Sanctification, etc.

I do believe I've stated our difference in my previous post...it being that there is no justification in the N.T. for believing that children can go to hell for sinning when they do not know what sinning is.

Children that are raised by Christian parents may turn out to be atheists.
Children that are raised by atheists may turn out to be Christian.
How could we know this until they are adult and can decide for themselves?
Why should an atheist child go to hell because the parents are atheist?
This would mean that children DO pay for the sins of the father, and they bible does not teach this.
Deuteronomy 24:16
16“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

Galatians 6:6
For each one shall bear his own load.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Please do not take this as me being mean to you or in any other way as you know me better than that. There are things that I agree with you, things I believe to be true, things that have no absolutes and things that are just IMO's. Many of our questions will be only answered when we are caught up to Christ when He returns on the last day, but even then it might not matter anymore.

God bless you sis.

Not taking anything badly....but the topic has been opened for discussion.
From your posts it sounds like you do believe we are born with a sin nature....
and that we are reponsible for it from the beginning of life....
IOW,,,you believe children are responsible for their sins, even though they do not even know what sins are.

I just don't find this anywhere in scripture.
Augustine taught, unlike anyone else, that babies had to be baptized immediately because if they died they went to hell because of original sin. He (about 400 AD) taught what no other Early Father taught until him. That a baby is IMPUTED with Adam's sin.

You agree that this is not true....so if a baby is not IMPUTED with Adam's sin,,,
and the bible teaches that we are personally responsible for just our own sins...
then how could a baby possibly go to hell?

Only the reformed have a reason for this belief being valid...
but they do not agree with the rest of Christianity NOW, and with
Christianity from the beginning---at which time children were believed to be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

The participle has a similar function to English in Greek. I couldn't write a 480pp dissertation without a keen eye for English grammar. My supervisor was a master at keeping me on track with punctuation.

How can I remember this English grammar? I've kept a check on it all my life since high school. See my article: Language police take aim: English grammar takes a nose dive in importance.

Oz

I also believe speaking English correctly is very important.
My job required that I know perfect English....both in spelling and in grammar.

But that doesn't mean that I remember all the RULES, as you do.
But I still know them,,,even though I can no longer explain all of them.
Yes, we're a dying breed.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't understand why you quoted Isaiah 5:20,,,,but OK:

My understanding of Isaiah 5:20 is that it starts out with "Woe unto them". They would rather do evil, but yet calling it good for themselves as they are lovers of self and enjoy worldly pleasures. Their darkness is in worshiping the things of the world that is the light unto their path they follow within the principalities of the world. It becomes their light and sweetness before them not knowing that it is bitter and will cause their own destruction in judgement as they replace God for the idolatry they take pleasure in.

 

[for_his_glory]

What am I twisting?
I realize I missed a lot from the start of this thread.
I'm here because I do believe this is an important discussion.
Those of the reformed faith believe that a baby can go to heaven or to hell because God has already so predestined them to be saved or not and so He knows from the beginning if the child would be saved or not.

This is not what mainline Christianity believes. We believe that there is an age of accountability at which time each person becomes responsible for their own sins.

I do understand now that you do NOT believe we are imputed with Adam's sin, so I apologize if I credited you with that statement when I first came on here.


I certainly hope that by the time of the N.T. God had revealed Himself much more clearly than in the O.T. What could be more clear then seeing Jesus in the flesh?

Also, I'm sorry that the Early Father's are not respected as much as they should be...after all, they're the ones that put together our bible and from whom come all our doctrine that created what Christianity is: The Trinity, The Hypostatic Union, The incarnation and resurrection, the doctrine of Justification and Sanctification, etc.

I do believe I've stated our difference in my previous post...it being that there is no justification in the N.T. for believing that children can go to hell for sinning when they do not know what sinning is.

Children that are raised by Christian parents may turn out to be atheists.
Children that are raised by atheists may turn out to be Christian.
How could we know this until they are adult and can decide for themselves?
Why should an atheist child go to hell because the parents are atheist?
This would mean that children DO pay for the sins of the father, and they bible does not teach this.
Deuteronomy 24:16
16“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

Galatians 6:6
For each one shall bear his own load.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.



Not taking anything badly....but the topic has been opened for discussion.
From your posts it sounds like you do believe we are born with a sin nature....
and that we are reponsible for it from the beginning of life....
IOW,,,you believe children are responsible for their sins, even though they do not even know what sins are.

I just don't find this anywhere in scripture.
Augustine taught, unlike anyone else, that babies had to be baptized immediately because if they died they went to hell because of original sin. He (about 400 AD) taught what no other Early Father taught until him. That a baby is IMPUTED with Adam's sin.

You agree that this is not true....so if a baby is not IMPUTED with Adam's sin,,,
and the bible teaches that we are personally responsible for just our own sins...
then how could a baby possibly go to hell?

Only the reformed have a reason for this belief being valid...
but they do not agree with the rest of Christianity NOW, and with
Christianity from the beginning---at which time children were believed to be saved.

In your post #159 I felt like you were twisting everything I said by the first three remarks you made as I do not believe in any of them.

I'm not of the reformed faith as their is only one true faith, but way to many theories of what faith is. Ephesians 4:4, 5 and Hebrews 11:1 explains what faith is and this I believe.

God never predestined who would be saved or not, but only predestined the plan of salvation through Christ before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-21.

Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible and is a preconception that only leads to speculation. Infant baptism is also unscriptural as a baby can not know faith and regeneration as this takes place at the same point in time. This is why Proverbs 22:6 says to train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. From birth they are either trained in the ways of the Lord or the ways of an idoltary world.

The foreknowledge of Jesus extends from Genesis to Revelations, but even many of the Jews who witnessed Christ in the flesh rejected that He was Messiah, as even today, as it was the Jews wanting Him crucified.

I have never followed the teachings of the early church fathers or any man's teachings other than what has already been written by the prophets and Apostles. All of us are to learn through the Holy Spirit teaching us all things either directly or working through others to help us learn that of what has already been written, John 14:26; 1 John 2:27.

Yes, you have stated your difference about whether children go to hell or not and I have also stated there are no absolutes about this found in the scriptures that I have ever found. I just can't read into scripture what is not there.

 

[GodsGrace]

My understanding of Isaiah 5:20 is that it starts out with "Woe unto them". They would rather do evil, but yet calling it good for themselves as they are lovers of self and enjoy worldly pleasures. Their darkness is in worshiping the things of the world that is the light unto their path they follow within the principalities of the world. It becomes their light and sweetness before them not knowing that it is bitter and will cause their own destruction in judgement as they replace God for the idolatry they take pleasure in.

Of course....and this is exactly because they are born with the sin nature.
We tend toward sinning before salvation,
egotism abounds,
we follow worldly beliefs and the world's system,
people follow other gods instead of the one true God.
They destroy themselves.

 

[GodsGrace]

In your post #159 I felt like you were twisting everything I said by the first three remarks you made as I do not believe in any of them.

Went back and read that post, no. 159.
It seemed to me that you were saying we are imputed with Adam's sin....
which is the only way babies would go to hell if dying without being baptized.
I now understand that you do not believe Adam's sin is imputed to each one of us.

I'm not of the reformed faith as their is only one true faith, but way to many theories of what faith is. Ephesians 4:4, 5 and Hebrews 11:1 explains what faith is and this I believe.

I know you're not of the reformed faith. I was stating what the reformed faith believes.
They believe babies could go to hell because God has already predetermined their salvation or lack thereof.

God never predestined who would be saved or not, but only predestined the plan of salvation through Christ before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-21.

Of course.

Age of accountability is nowhere found in the Bible and is a preconception that only leads to speculation. Infant baptism is also unscriptural as a baby can not know faith and regeneration as this takes place at the same point in time. This is why Proverbs 22:6 says to train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. From birth they are either trained in the ways of the Lord or the ways of an idoltary world.

As I said, we don't know how a child will grow up.
The child will have a better chance of remaining Christian if the upbringing has been loving, and a real Christian life has been demonstrated to them. But anything can happen and the upbringing will not guarantee success in the faith life.

Babies were not baptized for salvation UNTIL about the year 400 AD.
This is the year that Augustine of Hippo taught that babies were imputed with Adam's sin and so would go to hell if not baptized. This was not believed before then. The Early Fathers, that were taught by the Apostles, did NOT believe that babies should be baptized or risk hell. They DID baptize them but for different reasons.

I think that if you studied this doctrine you would better accept that there IS an age of accountability and why. I won't post any more verses since we all seem to only accept those that we agree with...IOW, how could a child go to hell if he has not committed any sins of his own?

I asked you if it's possible to state that you committed a sin IF you DID NOT KNOW it was a sin.
If you do not know you are sinning --- it is not a sin to you. In order to sin you must be aware of what you're doing and still decide to do it. THIS is disobeying God...you cannot disobey a rule you do not know exists. Romans 2:15 speaks to this.

The foreknowledge of Jesus extends from Genesis to Revelations, but even many of the Jews who witnessed Christ in the flesh rejected that He was Messiah, as even today, as it was the Jews wanting Him crucified.

The foreknowledge of Jesus extends from the O.T. to the N.T. in the sense that they were awaiting a Messiah.

But God, in Jesus, was not revealed until the incarnation.
Jesus makes God more clear to us than He had ever been before.

I have never followed the teachings of the early church fathers or any man's teachings other than what has already been written by the prophets and Apostles. All of us are to learn through the Holy Spirit teaching us all things either directly or working through others to help us learn that of what has already been written, John 14:26; 1 John 2:27.

The N.T. was not totally written by the Apostles.
What is in the bible was decided by the Early Fathers.
The N.T. did not magically appear....
It's unfortunate that more Christians are not interested in church history.

Yes, you have stated your difference about whether children go to hell or not and I have also stated there are no absolutes about this found in the scriptures that I have ever found. I just can't read into scripture what is not there.

This is why it's good to know what those taught by the Apostles believed.
Sometimes scripture may not be clear...but they knew what was being taught.

To say it another way:
How can a 4 year old accept Jesus as Savior?
He cannot.

At what age would you think that a child can know if he accepts Jesus as Savior or not?

And if you're right, what about handicapped children?
They sin.
They cannot know about Jesus.
Do they go to hell also?

They also are born with a sin nature,
but does God punish them for it?