Bible Study ARE WE BORN WITH A SIN NATURE

[JLB]

baby can not inherit the sin of the parents, but are born with a sin nature.

Iniquity

 

[JLB]

Adams sin was imputed to every one of us

Agreed

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not going to debate this one way or another but I would like to offer a thought. In Matthew 19:13-15 Jesus was addressing Jews and the children that were brought to Him were Jewish children, right? If this is so, then when He said, "Heaven belongs to such as these," it could be argued that the "these" He was speaking about could have simply been the Jewish children.

WIP,

There's nothing in the context that indicates they were only Jewish children, verse 13 states, Τότε προσηνέχθησαν αὐτῷ παιδία ἵνα τὰς χεῖρας ἐπιθῇ αὐτοῖς καὶ προσεύξηται· οἱ δὲ μαθηταὶ ἐπετίμησαν αὐτοῖς.

What I've highlighted means 'were brought to him children'. There is no indication they were Jewish children.

I'll leave it there.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

Iniquity

I already addressed that back in post #30

 

[JLB]

I already addressed that back in post #30

Iniquities are passed on from fathers to sons.

 

[for_his_glory]

I will no longer respond to your responses you want a clear scripture telling you specifically that all children go to heaven several people have given you supportive scripture but you want it to be more specific well many questions such as the second coming are not specific black and white some things must be seen with eyes of faith and in this way yes you are much like the pharisees that were given truth and yet they denied bc it didnt fit their way of teaching or knowing or interpretation.

I'm sorry you feel this need to judge me as a Pharisee, especially when you do not even know me. I don't believe that is walking in unity of love in which CF is all about even if we do not always agree.

I only deal with specifics of what has already been written as I do not assume or read anything into the scriptures. These are discussions where we express opinions saying they are opinions and also expressing that of what we believe according to our understanding of scripture. There are no absolutes found in scripture that all children go to heaven, just like all the scriptures others have been graciously giving me.

The second coming of Christ we do read absolutes as in those things which will take place before He returns as Jesus already gave us what to watch for. When it comes to all babies being caught up to Him, I can find no scripture that says yes, or no. I can only believe where God says I will forget your children and to have certain children slaughtered, these are also His enemies, even if they are babies as that is all I have to go by.

I don't want or need a feel good message as I've had my fill of those for 65 years. I want truth which comes by the word of God through His Holy Spirit. I would hope all babies go to be with the Lord, but then again it has not yet been proven to me. Whether it ever will be, I don't know, but it has nothing to do with my faith in God or my salvation through Christ Jesus. I would suggest you let God do the judging as all we can judge is the fruits we see in others.

God bless you sister.

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

I'm sorry you feel this need to judge me as a Pharisee, especially when you do not even know me. I don't believe that is walking in unity of love in which CF is all about even if we do not always agree.

I only deal with specifics of what has already been written as I do not assume or read anything into the scriptures. These are discussions where we express opinions saying they are opinions and also expressing that of what we believe according to our understanding of scripture. There are no absolutes found in scripture that all children go to heaven, just like all the scriptures others have been graciously giving me.

The second coming of Christ we do read absolutes as in those things which will take place before He returns as Jesus already gave us what to watch for. When it comes to all babies being caught up to Him, I can find no scripture that says yes, or no. I can only believe where God says I will forget your children and to have certain children slaughtered, these are also His enemies, even if they are babies as that is all I have to go by.

I don't want or need a feel good message as I've had my fill of those for 65 years. I want truth which comes by the word of God through His Holy Spirit. I would hope all babies go to be with the Lord, but then again it has not yet been proven to me. Whether it ever will be, I don't know, but it has nothing to do with my faith in God or my salvation through Christ Jesus. I would suggest you let God do the judging as all we can judge is the fruits we see in others.

God bless you sister.

I am far from being able to judge anyones walk with God. I initially brought this question to the thread but would rather cease discussing it than continue to go in circles not getting any closer to a resolution. If that makes me wrong then I will accept that . I have stated previously that I am far from being perfected in Christ still have a whole life's journey of learning and chastisement to go. Perhaps in future discussions we will have answers to some of these questions that is if I have the opportunity to learn.

 

[for_his_glory]

Iniquities are passed on from fathers to sons.

Iniquity comes from disobedience to God's commands beginning with Adam and every generation after him that disobeys God. Adam's sin is what is called the original or in other words where it originated from.

We do not inherit his sin, but the nature to sin that was brought into the world by disobedience as all of us are quilty of his sin, Romans 5:18. Adam had God's commandments, Noah had seven of God's commandments then there were 613 in which even now we are to follow the moral parts of the 613 through the greatest commandment of love. What was imputed to us from Adam is only the nature or capacity to sin in which all of us have, but not his own sin.

It's like Christ who imputes His righteousness in those who confess Him as Lord and Savior. They believe by faith that He is the Son of God who paid the price for the penalty of our sin that led us to Spiritual death losing fellowship with Him. We by the sin nature were deserving of God's wrath, Ephesians 2:1-3, but if we persist in this state of separation from God the result is eternal damnation, Rev 20:11-15.

 

[JLB]

Iniquity comes from disobedience to God's commands beginning with Adam and every generation after him that disobeys God. Adam's sin is what is called the original or in other words where it originated from.

We do not inherit his sin, but the nature to sin that was brought into the world by disobedience as all of us are quilty of his sin, Romans 5:18. Adam had God's commandments, Noah had seven of God's commandments then there were 613 in which even now we are to follow the moral parts of the 613 through the greatest commandment of love. What was imputed to us from Adam is only the nature or capacity to sin in which all of us have, but not his own sin.

It's like Christ who imputes His righteousness in those who confess Him as Lord and Savior. They believe by faith that He is the Son of God who paid the price for the penalty of our sin that led us to Spiritual death losing fellowship with Him. We by the sin nature were deserving of God's wrath, Ephesians 2:1-3, but if we persist in this state of separation from God the result is eternal damnation, Rev 20:11-15.

We can inherit iniquities from our father.


Our fathers sinned and are no more,
But we bear their iniquities.
Lamentations 5:7


You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.
Deuteronomy 5:8-9



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

I am far from being able to judge anyones walk with God. I initially brought this question to the thread but would rather cease discussing it than continue to go in circles not getting any closer to a resolution. If that makes me wrong then I will accept that . I have stated previously that I am far from being perfected in Christ still have a whole life's journey of learning and chastisement to go. Perhaps in future discussions we will have answers to some of these questions that is if I have the opportunity to learn.

I'm not sure what your original question was, but I hope we can put this behind us and start fresh with each other as we walk in unity of love.

And to everyone else I ask that we move past the babies going to heaven as this is something I will have to work out on my own with even a deeper study so let's get back to the topic of the OP, thank you.

 

[BondservantRom6:22]

I'm not sure what your original question was, but I hope we can put this behind us and start fresh with each other as we walk in unity of love.

And to everyone else I ask that we move past the babies going to heaven as this is something I will have to work out on my own with even a deeper study so let's get back to the topic of the OP, thank you.

Yes ma'am I am in agreement thank you for your patience with me.

 

[for_his_glory]

We can inherit iniquities from our father.


Our fathers sinned and are no more,
But we bear their iniquities.
Lamentations 5:7


You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.
Deuteronomy 5:8-9



JLB

They/we have carried their/our immoral behavior from that of the sins of our fathers as we follow the same pattern creating our own sin within us as we continue to walk in disobedience to God's commands like our fathers before us.

 

[OzSpen]

We can inherit iniquities from our father.


Our fathers sinned and are no more,
But we bear their iniquities.
Lamentations 5:7

You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.
Deuteronomy 5:8-9

JLB

JLB,

Do you follow the same line of reasoning for those who committed other sin under the Old Covenant? I'm thinking of the consequences for the sins of ...

• Adultery (Lev 20:10 NIV);
• Homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13 NIV), and
• Murder (Lev 24:17 NIV).

Oz

 

[JLB]

They/we have carried their/our immoral behavior from that of the sins of our fathers as we follow the same pattern creating our own sin within us as we continue to walk in disobedience to God's commands like our fathers before us.

I see that from the context that this passing on of iniquity was was associated with idolatry of some kind.

I believe in Christ, we can repent on behalf of our forefathers that were involved in this and cut off this in our family line.

This seems to be one of the promises of the New Covenant.


You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Deuteronomy 5:7-10



The LORD is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.’ Numbers 14:18



The Good News —


In those days they shall say no more:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.’
But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.
A New Covenant
“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. Jeremiah 31:29-33





JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB,

Do you follow the same line of reasoning for those who committed other sin under the Old Covenant? I'm thinking of the consequences for the sins of ...

• Adultery (Lev 20:10 NIV);
• Homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13 NIV), and
• Murder (Lev 24:17 NIV).

Oz

The emphasis seems to be on idolatry.


Those who commit the sins you mentioned were put to death, in which if they had no children yet it could not be passed on.


Of course the breaking of His Commandments is in itself rebellion and stubbornness which is viewed by the Lord as witchcraft and idolatry.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

We all have a sin nature as we have all been conceived and born into a sinful world by that of Satan's deceit. IE: the fall of Adam and Eve being deceived by Satan using the serpent as his vessel, Genesis 3:1-15. Like Adam and Eve we are created and born without sin as God created each of us and can not even look upon sin so why would God create us sinful, John 9:31; Romans 8:7,8: Mark 15:34 (God did not forsake his son on the cross, but had to look away as Jesus was taking all our sin upon himself.

Adam and Eve were created sinless, but placed into a sinful world because of Satan being cast down to the ground and became sin to the nations before that of God creating Adam, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17. Their desire was to be like God and saw no wrong with their decision, but when the knowledge of good and evil was opened before them it was at that time they knew they disobeyed God and tried to hide their shame. The consequence of their disobedience was God casting them out of the beautiful garden and casting them out into a sinful world.

There is nowhere in scripture that actually says Adam or Eve repented and asked for forgiveness, but we do see that God provided for them as he made them clothing from animals to cover their shame and we can correlate that as the first animal (blood) sacrifice for the atonement of sin (shame) leading up to that of Jesus being the final blood sacrifice for sin as God clothes us in His righteousness.

Genesis 3:21-24 we see God clothing them and also sending them out of the garden for judgment passed on them so they could not eat from the tree of life and literally live forever, but to now having to work the land God provided for them outside of the garden and eat from it till they returned back to the dust of the ground through physical death. We can also read in Genesis 4:1 that Eve gave birth to Cain and exclaimed she got a male child from the Lord so I do feel they repented and God forgave them as God continued to provide for them, but not the way in which He intended to in he garden.

David’s transgressions were from a sin nature of being born into a sinful world and not that of being born a sinner when he made the statement in Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. David’s transgressions were that of lusting after things that were not his, 2 Samuel 12:1-24, in wanting more than what God had already blessed him with and he became an angry man full of greed until God humbled his heart through the death of his son he had with Bathsheba and once David was humbled he returned back to Gods grace and became that man of God that God predestined him to be.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth. They are not born astray, but stray into sin after birth by that of sin that is already in the world that deceives them. A child will imitate that of the adults around them so they will either imitate that of God and His goodness in love as seen in their parents or will imitate that of evil that is taught by their parents. The child does not know yet of good or evil, but their life will be influenced by what they learn, Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Matthew 18:3 Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. What Jesus is saying here is that we need to be converted in all humility like that of a child as their example of humility as being humble and without pride.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? As a child we take on our physical attributes from our physical parents, but our spirit we get from God when he breathed live into us. God created us in His image and if we were already born with a sin nature that knew evil then that would mean Gods image would be evil since we are created in His image. But we know that is not the case, because in God there is no evil and we are born without evil in us, but are born into an evil world.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. If we were conceived and born with evil in us then how could we wax worse in evil and be deceived by others as we would already be evil, but again we are made in the pure image of God so how can evil be found in us before we were even born from the womb.

Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

How do we get an honest and good heart if we are not born with one as it is only by the evil that is in the world that will cause us to be deceived if we lust after it. Once again, train up a child in the way they should go and they will not turn from it. Parents are the ones who we get our attributes from as a child as we are influenced by what we see and hear around us.

Is there a difference between being born a sinner
and being born with the sin nature?

IOW,,,do you believe a 3 year old can sin?

Sorry, I came to this thread so late....

 

[GodsGrace]

My question is how could Satan have deceived Eve by presenting her with the lure to "be like God" if she didn't have a sin nature? I'm thinking that if it was not in her nature she would be content with who she was and Satan's lure would have no effect.

This also brings into question the purpose of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Is that too a form of a test or, if I dare say temptation, to validate our love for God? I know the Bible says that God does not tempt us so then what was the purpose for placing the tree in the garden and then forbidding man from partaking?

WIP.....
You ask an answerable question!
How did Eve sin if she was born without the sin nature?

Eve was created without the sin nature....
we cannot believe that God WANTED her to sin and thus created her with this sin nature.
So, we're left to wonder what made her sin.
Satan deceived her,,,and we'll have to leave it at that and continue forward, or stop at this question without end.

We can be sure that man caused the fall of man..
God did not cause the fall. Adam did.

 

[GodsGrace]

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
I understand this verse to say I was brought forth into a sinful world as my mother who is a sinner conceived me. I'm not adding to or taking away from that vs, but only giving how I understand it.

We were not created with a sin nature as God created us as children, innocent not knowing good from evil as we were created for His good pleasure. The sin nature is the existing nature of the flesh as by one man sin entered into the world, Romans 5:12, and continues with every generation who walk in disobedience to God's commands.

God's plan of salvation through Christ was planned out before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:18-21, as God also created us with free will to make our own choices, Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28.

The knowledge of good and evil was not known until Adam and Eve, who BTW were created full adults and not children, nor did they come out of a womb, were enticed as the were deceived by Satan working through the serpent by what looked good and pleasing to them. Not everything that looks good and pleasing to the flesh is good for us. Children do not understand what good and evil is until they are taught what obedience means, Proverbs 22:6.

Are you saying we are not born with a sin nature?

But then you say the sin nature is the existing nature of the flesh as by one man sin entered into the world....

Isn't the above a conflict of ideas?

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with most of what you present here, except that we are born with a sin nature.

Yes, I do reject the teachings that say we are born with a sin nature as that would go against the characteristics of the perfection of God as we are created in His image as He formed us in our mothers womb.

It is only after birth when we arrive into a sinful world that we have a natural inclination to be disobedient that causes us to sin. David said "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Even after birth the wicked go astray from the womb, Psalms 51:5; 58:3.

So, like Adam part of his character had to have possibly been a natural inclination to sin and was activated when he was deceived and fell to temptation like everyone after him losing that fellowship with God in need of redemption.

We inherit from Adam the natural inclination to sin as we do not inherit his sin that causes us to sin. It's disobedience within each one of us after we are born that causes us to sin against our parents and against God.

Sorry FHG...

I think you're saying that we DO NOT have a sin nature at birth.
So when do we get this sin nature?

I agree that we do not inherit Adam's sin.
What we inherit is the EFFECT of his sin.

We are only responsible for our own sins...
not the sins of our fathers.

Deuteronomy 24:16
“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Nowhere in the N.T. does it state that our fathers have any responsibility for our sins and V V....

 

[WIP]

WIP,

There's nothing in the context that indicates they were only Jewish children, verse 13 states, Τότε προσηνέχθησαν αὐτῷ παιδία ἵνα τὰς χεῖρας ἐπιθῇ αὐτοῖς καὶ προσεύξηται· οἱ δὲ μαθηταὶ ἐπετίμησαν αὐτοῖς.

What I've highlighted means 'were brought to him children'. There is no indication they were Jewish children.

I'll leave it there.

Oz

I know and I expected you might bring this up. Likewise, I'm sure you can expect that my reply could be that there is nothing in the context that indicates they were not Jewish.

Okay, with that said, in verse 1 of chapter 13, it provides us with the location as the region of Judea (NKJV). Is it not reasonable to deduce they were most likely Jewish children?