It seems you can't understand the "hard things".
Circumcision of the flesh profits nothing.
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Are We Lost Without A Church?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
Circumcision of the flesh profits nothing.
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Galatians 2:20
- but Christ lives in me;
This says Christ lives in Paul.
This does not say the body of Paul has somehow become the body of Jesus Christ.
I agree that Jesus dwells in born again Christians, by His Spirit. Even then it is His Spirit in your spirit.
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12
Again, as I said, we all have a body that contains sin. We all must choose to walk according to the Spirit, so that we don’t fulfill the sinful desires of our flesh.
JLB
Yes. Those that obey the truth will receive eternal life.
Those that obey unrighteousness will receive eternal damnation.
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. Romans 2:7-8
JLB
Rajesh Sahu
2024 Supporter
Hey brother JLB,
Here is what I get from the Word.
Exodus 31:18 reveals the method by which the Ten Commandments were written on tablets of stone by Lord God: by His own finger, and the
TWO TABLETS were brought down from Mount Sinai by Moses.
Here is what Exodus 31:18 says :
When the Lord finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, He gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
Moses repeats this in Deuteronomy 9:10 :
"The LORD gave me( Moses) two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God. On them were all the commandments the LORD proclaimed to you on the mountain out of the fire, on the day of the assembly"
This Law was subsequently written by the Finger of Father God on the TWO TABLETS of our Heart and our Mind reveals Jeremiah 31:33 , Hebrews 10:16.
From these two verses it is very clear that the Law of God was written in a way that can never be done away with. One can surely deny the Law , break or disobey it ( with deathly consequences), but nobody can ever deny its perennial existence, its immortality.
This is what Jesus emphasizes/ reiterates in Mattthew 5:17-18 , that the Law given by God , now written on tablets of our Hearts and minds, can never go. The universe itself has to go before that happens declares Christ.
But the good Lord that He is, he taught us how to FULFILL the OBEDIENCE REQUIREMENT of the Law. And that He explained in unequivocal terms in Matthew 22:37-40
"Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
See, Jesus is clearly explaining that the obedience requirement of the ENTIRE Law, and teachings of the Prophets is met, when we practise these two greatest commandments of Christ .
To make sure we get this VITAL point, Jesus says the same thing, albeit in different words, in Matthew 7:12 what the world recognizes as The Golden Rule . The entire key to complete compliance of the perennial Law of God , and the teachings of the Prophets lies captured, hidden if you will, in ' The Golden Rule'
Let us read what Matthew 7:12 says :
"In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets."
Now question is WHAT would we like others to do to us? Well I'd like them to love and respect me. So yet again it's LOVE that Jesus is pointing to, as He does in unambiguous words in Matthew 22:37-40
Inference : When we begin to genuinely Love God , and other humans ( by practicing Loving kindness), we FUFILL the obedience requirement of God's Law. The grace that emanates from Christ's death on the cross is imputed / applicable and our sins are forgiven .
But this grace does NOT apply to those who do not Love God and other people as themselves, that is, they do not practise Loving - compassion. Apostle John ( apart from Christ Himself) confirms this for us in
1 John 4:8
"Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love"
John repeats it in 1John 4:16
"And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him. "
So we see How John is helping us understand what Jesus taught : how crucial it is (for human salvation) to learn to turn away from sin and practise Loving- kindness.
Jesus , being the good Lord now takes is to a future day, the day of judgment, to show us that what He taught us , was what He will use on the last day , to decide who is saved and who is condemned .
It's on the judgment day vision of Goats and Sheep analogy in Matthew 25:31-46
That day will play out word for word, what scenario Christ showed us. All people , Christians or otherwise, will be divided in two groups, Goats and Sheep. The ones who practised Loving compassion in their lifetime will be Saved. But those who didn't will be rejected for eternal times. No other metric / criterion was used by the Lord to make that crucial (for us!) decision . He taught Love and He will use that metric only on the last day to save or condemn.
Grace does not apply to those who did not turn away from sinfulness , picked up christ's cross of righteousness( Matthew 10 :38) and walked to ( and in) Love. This was the message I get from the Bible.
However having learned an important lesson from Sister Wondering, I'm not at all going to insist that anyone accept or agree with my interpretation or inference. To each their own. We will have to face the consequences of our choices.
I wrote this post to explain brother JLB what I get from the Word, and why I do not believe/ accept that we are not under Law but Grace. Jesus rejected that doctrine on the last day ( Matthew 25:31-46). The day of judgment vision also effectively rejects the Solafide doctrine of Saved by Faith alone, through Grace alone in Christ alone .
"No acts of Loving compassion, no salvation" was the message of Salvation according to what I read from all this . Just my opinion ( disclaimer)
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Elihoenai
Member
Luke 2:21 King James Version
21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
It appears this way to you. We are in total agreement with the Holy Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. Everything in the Holy Scriptures is binding for the True Disciple of Messiah/Christ.
No such thing as “our converted body”.
Our body will die because of sin, and be resurrected from the dead, in which our body will be raised incorruptible.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:42-44
This takes place at His coming.
If we are raptured then our physical bodies will be changed, just as those who are resurrected from the dead.
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
JLB
Hey brother JLB,
Here is what I get from the Word.
Exodus 31:18 reveals the method by which the Ten Commandments were written on tablets of stone by Lord God: by His own finger, and the
TWO TABLETS were brought down from Mount Sinai by Moses.
Here is what Exodus 31:18 says :
When the Lord finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, He gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
Moses repeats this in Deuteronomy 9:10 :
"The LORD gave me( Moses) two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God. On them were all the commandments the LORD proclaimed to you on the mountain out of the fire, on the day of the assembly"
This Law was subsequently written by the Finger of Father God on the TWO TABLETS of our Heart and our Mind reveals
The law of Moses is so much more than the 10 Commandments.
His Commandments are eternal, whereas the law of Moses, was temporary.
Here is an example of the law of Moses concerning the Sabbath.
Do you believe the Church is required to observe these commandments today, under the New Covenant?
Moses was the mediator of the that covenant, which is why it was called the law of Moses. Now Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, which is why it’s called the law of Christ.
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Romans 7:4
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2
The law of Moses is what divided Jew from Gentile.
Christ and the New Covenant is what brings about one new man from the two.
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, Ephesians 2:14-15
JLB
Rajesh Sahu
2024 Supporter
In your opinion, what Law did Father God mean When He said in Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16, "I will will put my Law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."
Whatever Law God has etched on our minds and hearts is forever/ perennial. So what Law did He etch , that we carry 24×7 until our last breath, or do you believe we have died to that Law which is inscribed in us?
Also one quick question : What is the Law of Christ that Paul mentions in Galatians 6:2. I'm not aware Jesus gave any Law . What Law did He give? And where is that Law mentioned in the Bible ? I know how He taught we could Fulfill Father God's Law
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The laws and commandments of the COVENANT.
The COVENANT the Lord made with Abraham, in which the law of Moses was temporarily added, and the became the NEW COVENANT.
Abraham walked with God and obeyed His commandments and laws, 430 years before Moses law.
because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Genesis 26:5
Abraham learned them by faith.
Abraham learned them directly from God Himself, as he walked before Him in His Presence.
Read Genesis 17:1
JLB
Jesus was born under the Old Covenant.
I was born, and reborn under the NEW Covenant.
Thanks be to God, as I have no room for sacrificial goats and bulls in my apartment.
Only in the unbeliever.
Mine has already died, (Rom 6:3-6), and been quickened by the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Rom 8:11)
And I remain Hopeful to be found in the book of life on that last day.
We've go to endure, faithfully and in accord with God, till then.
Thank God for the ability to do just that.
Bob Carabbio
Member
Of course. the "church" has nothing to do with being Born again, other than possibly providing a witness that the Holy Spirit uses to Convict a person of their SIN and assist in leading the person to repentance, and calling upon God.
In come case the "church" teaches GROSS ERROR, and can lead a person AWAY from salvation (as in the case of Roman Catholicism, Jehova's Witness, Mormonism, Campbellite Church of Christ, etc.).
WHEN a person is Born Again of the Holy SPirit, then they become "the church", along with other born again Christians.
Rajesh Sahu
2024 Supporter
Well I hope you are including the TEN COMMANDMENTS which are really the very summary of the moral law of God. And repeatedly mentioned by Christ in His ministry .He told the teacher of the Law ( preceding Good samaritan parable) that If He kept these two He would be saved
It also means When God refers to the Law He also means the ten commandments since Jesus is directly referring to them as LAW
Luke 10 :25-28
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do THIS and you will live.”
Jesus repeats this to the Rich Man in rich man and Christ parable Mark 10:17-31
So just to be clear in that, are you in your opinion including the fact that Father God when He wrote His Law on our hearts & Minds wrote the Ten Commandments as well on them ?
Our mortal body will be “made alive” at the resurrection of the dead in Christ; at His coming.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:3-12
Maybe you didn’t read far enough.
- Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
Sin is not “removed” from our physical body, however we have the power to “rule” over the sin that is in our mortal bodies, rather than the sin “ruling and reigning“ over us to bring us into bondage to it’s lustful cravings.
Sin remains in our “mortal” body until we die and are raised incorruptible, at His Coming.
Here’s how we are instructed to exercise or authority over the sin that dwells in our bodies.
And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13
We have a choice, we must choose to use our mind to reckon ourselves “to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
When we are resurrected from the dead, at His coming, we will have bodies that are incorruptible, which means they will not die because its has no sin in it. This is in the future, at His coming.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:42-44
At His coming; at the last trumpet
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1 Corinthians 15:50-54
The resurrection of the dead in Christ is yet future, and occurs at His coming.
For now, we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin, and to not present our members as instruments of unrighteousness to commit sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19
Our physical body is weak because of the sin that dwells in it, “so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.”
We must use our minds, not to dwell on the things of the earth but set our minds to think on godly things, so our minds will be an ally with our spirit that is born again and has a new nature, and is empowered and led by the Spirit of God, rather than an ally of our flesh that is opposed to the desires of the Spirit.
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
Galatians 5:16-17
At the end of the proverbial day, those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh: have rendered the flesh incapable of ruling and reigning over us to make us its slave.
And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Galatians 5:24-25
It’s a choice we all must make, each and everyday.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13
- For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
- but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
JLB
Again, there are many more than ten.
I don’t say the Ten Commandments because the Sabbath ordinances that the children of Israel were under are not applicable to the Church.
As I asked before....
Do you believe the Church is obligated to observe these following Sabbath commandments from the law of Moses?
Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’ ” So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16:23-30
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:12-15
Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, “These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”Exodus 35:1-3
Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36
‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. Numbers 28:9-10
JLB
Rajesh Sahu
2024 Supporter
JLB can I please get a one line reply ARE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS WRITTEN ON OUR MINDS AND HEARTS or NOT? Because if you deny, I wish to say nothing more , it's then between you and Father . But if you agree , which is up to you, I will proceed with my questions.
The doctrine of Saved by Grace alone is taught only by one man in the entire Bible . Nobody else taught . The same man ( the thirteenth apostle) also taught The Law of God is dead to a Christian which you only quoted ( and I disagree that with my heart and soul ).
All these are very serious topics concerning the very doctrine of the Living God of the Universe . So would appreciate a brief and succinct response sir ?
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If you show me where it says the 10 commandments are written on our heart, then I will give you my answer.
Isnt it a commandment not to add to the word of God or take away from His word?
JLB
While I’m waiting for a scripture that says the 10 Commandments are written on our heart, I will ask again the question which you didn’t bother to answer, which is not like you. I have always enjoyed our conversations.
Do you believe the Church is to observe these Sabbath commandments from the law of Moses?
Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’ ” So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” So the people rested on the seventh day. Exodus 16:23-30
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:12-15
Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, “These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do: Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”Exodus 35:1-3
Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36
And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering. Numbers 28:9-10
JLB