Are We Lost Without A Church?

[JLB]

When will this body of Sin be destroyed?

At death or at His coming.

There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:40-44


However, we can reckon ourselves dead to sin, and by the Spirit put to death the sinful deeds of the flesh, so that we reign in dominion over sin while still alive.


Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:11-14




JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Not true at all. We as Christians must actively pursue the things or righteousness and choose to put to death the things of the flesh, by the Spirit empowering us.

Paul plainly warns the Church not to walk in the flesh.

The church complies.
The fake "Christians" don't.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Those walking in the flesh were not reborn, as the "flesh" of the reborn was cast off at baptism into Christ.
The reborn walk in the Spirit.

We all have sin issues in our lives, when we get saved, and must learn to overcome them, by the Spirit, to walk in freedom from the bondage of sin. It’s a growing process to becoming mature.

A true repentance from sin ends sin issues, as a true repentance ends sin.

Sin or the sin nature remains in our flesh throughout our life and we must learn to be filled with the Spirit each and everyday day to be empowered by the Spirit to overcome the temptation of the lustful cravings of the flesh that desire to be gratified. We must choose to walk according to the righteous desires of the Spirit Who dwells in our inner man, rather than the sinful desires of our flesh
JLB

No, there is no sin nature in the reborn.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
"Old things are passed away".
It is also written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
There is no power in dead "flesh" or lusts.
I don't understand why you don't believe these scriptures.

 

[Hopeful]

What choice should a person make before they are born again?

The choice of living as Christ lived, or not.

 

[JLB]

Those walking in the flesh were not reborn, as the "flesh" of the reborn was cast off at baptism into Christ.
The reborn walk in the Spirit.

The command is to born again Christians.

Paul himself said he didn't teach those who were outside.

Born again, baptized Christians still have a physical body just like everyone else, and the physical body contains sin just like everyone else. The difference is Christians have a new nature empowered by the Spirit, to walk in the newness of life, free from the bondage of sin, if they obey the Spirit who leads them in righteousness rather than obeying the sinful desires of the flesh.


Please explain why Paul would tell people who are not born again to walk in the Spirit?

Makes no sense.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16



Are you trying to convince me that Paul is telling people who are not born again, to walk in the Spirit?




JLB

 

[JLB]

A true repentance from sin ends sin issues, as a true repentance ends sin.

First of all, the command of the Gospel is to repent.

Not repent of sin.

Repent means to “turn to God” (in submission to Him as Lord).

People who are not born again don’t have the ability to repent of sin.


Please show me a scripture where the Gospel was preached saying repent of your sins.



JLB

 

[JLB]

No, there is no sin nature in the reborn.
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
"Old things are passed away".
It is also written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
There is no power in dead "flesh" or lusts.
I don't understand why you don't believe these scriptures.

Please explain how you can be alive but your physical body is dead. If your physical body is dead, then you will be with the Lord.


What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16


Paul is urging them not to sin, just because they are not under the law.


Paul teaches them they must present themselves slaves to obey righteousness rather than slaves of sin.


I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19



Just because you were baptized in water last week, or last month, or last year doesn’t mean your flesh, your physical body is actually dead. You must by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh, everyday.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13



Paul plainly tells Christians that if they live according to the flesh they will die: The two choices are taught by Paul throughout his letters.

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Eternal life or eternal death, depending on how you live.


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JLB

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace

I do not understand why and how was Paul teaching we are " not under Law but under Grace" . The Law ( often called Mosaic Law by many Churches) given by Farher God Himself just . Cannot. Go. declares Christ in Matthew 5:17-18 . Jesus in fact emphasizes that even the most little bit of Law cannot go until all things are fulfilled . Jesus goes on to add in Matthew 5:18 ( I paraphrase) that Universe itself can crash and burn and disappear, but the Law Of God Just Cannot Go.
Neither Christ nor anyone in the Universe has the right or power to touch the Law of God which is now written on our Hearts and Minds by none other than the Father Himself ( Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16)
Why and how Paul was teaching that Christian's are not under Law but Grace just defeats my understanding of the Bible . He was the only man in the entire Bible ( Christ included) who taught the Christian is released from the Law , even when the Law is inscribed on his heart and mind by none other than God Himself. This teaching of Paul finds no support from any other Writer in Bible ( unless I'm missing something as big as that ). Nobody would even ( dare) suggest such a thing . Can someone please edify me and explain how are we not yet under the Law , but something called "Grace" which Jesus the savior never mentioned the word Grace in His ministry even once, even as He taught millions. Neither did Jesusxteach Grace before crucifixion or after resurrection when He returned and taught some more , including the great commission. Matthew 28:18-20 and neither did Christ mention the word Grace in His final return ( book of revelation) where yet again He continues to warn that only the obedient will be saved . And finally even in Goats and Sheep vision ( Matthew 25:31-46) of the Judgment Day ( an event waiting to happen) the Christ in His capacity of Judge of mankind does not use Grace to save or condemn. The sole metric He used was what He always taught ----- Works of Loving-kindness . Not even Faith was used by Christ
So repeating the question How was Paul teaching we are Not Under Law but Grace ? To me this is a serious deviation from the gospel of salvation taught by the Christ and the Father Himself
Many thanks in advance ?. Submitted in respect ?

 

[Hopeful]

The command is to born again Christians.
Paul himself said he didn't teach those who were outside.

Agreed, but not just reborn Christians read the words.

Born again, baptized Christians still have a physical body just like everyone else, and the physical body contains sin just like everyone else. The difference is Christians have a new nature empowered by the Spirit, to walk in the newness of life, free from the bondage of sin, if they obey the Spirit who leads them in righteousness rather than obeying the sinful desires of the flesh.

Do we really?
Is not the body now the temple of God?
It is His body and to be used by Him for His glory.
Like Paul wrote in Gal 2:20..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Christ lives within "our body".

Please explain why Paul would tell people who are not born again to walk in the Spirit?

Makes no sense.

So they don't get fooled by the devilish intruders.
Also for the instruction of the unlearned, unconverted.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16
Are you trying to convince me that Paul is telling people who are not born again, to walk in the Spirit?

Convince?
No, just reminding them, plus giving footing to the pastors and teachers among the brethren to enforce order in the churches.

 

[Hopeful]

First of all, the command of the Gospel is to repent.
Not repent of sin.

Well I guess that "interpretation" has allowed untold sin into the churches.

Repent means to “turn to God” (in submission to Him as Lord).

And turn FROM what?
Sin !
How can a man "turn to God" while he still serves sin?

People who are not born again don’t have the ability to repent of sin.

They sure do, as they will receive the Holy Ghost to help. (Acts 2:38)

Please show me a scripture where the Gospel was preached saying repent of your sins.

Acts 2:38, Matt 9:13, Mark 2:17, Luke 3:3, Luke 5:32, Luke 15:7, 10, Acts 3:19, 2 Cor 12:21,

 

[Hopeful]

Please explain how you can be alive but your physical body is dead. If your physical body is dead, then you will be with the Lord.

Amen to that ! Seated in heavenly places with Christ. (Eph 2:6)
Rom 6:5 says..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
I was killed, buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Reborn of God's seed instead of Adam's.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16
Paul is urging them not to sin, just because they are not under the law.
Paul teaches them they must present themselves slaves to obey righteousness rather than slaves of sin.
I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19

Thanks be to God for His apostle's teachings !

Just because you were baptized in water last week, or last month, or last year doesn’t mean your flesh, your physical body is actually dead. You must by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh, everyday.

I believe what is written, and the writings say differently.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13
Paul plainly tells Christians that if they live according to the flesh they will die: The two choices are taught by Paul throughout his letters.

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Eternal life or eternal death, depending on how you live.
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

You posted the verses but don't believe them ?

 

[JLB]

I do not understand why and how was Paul teaching we are " not under Law but under Grace" . The Law ( often called Mosaic Law by many Churches) given by Farher God Himself just . Cannot. Go. declares Christ in Matthew 5:17-18 . Jesus in fact emphasizes that even the most little bit of Law cannot go until all things are fulfilled .

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Matthew 5:17-18


The “law” can represent different things based of the context.


There is the Law, the Torah, the first 5 books of the Bible that were written by Moses.

There is the laws and commandments of God; the law of the Lord, such as do not murder...


Then there is the law of Moses that was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, until the Seed, the Messiah should come and fulfill it.


Do you agree that Jesus fulfilled the law? Do you agree that Jesus fulfilled the purpose that the law was added, one of which was to point the children of Israel to the Messiah,
Jesus Christ?


One example: The Passover lamb. Do you agree that Jesus was the Passover Lamb?





JLB

 

[JLB]

Do we really?
Is not the body now the temple of God?

Yes the born again Christian still has a physical body that contains sin.

Paul warns Christians about sexual immorality.


Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:15-17

again

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17



Paul warns Christians about using their body, the temple of God, for sinful practices, which will result in them being destroyed by God.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Well I guess that "interpretation" has allowed untold sin into the churches.

Please post the scripture whereby the gospel was preached saying repent of your sins.


Repenting, turning to God and submitting to Him as Lord, will result in being cleansed of sin, and empowered to walk in dominion over sin.


Nevertheless, the Gospel does command repent of your sins.


What that says is, first repent of your sins then you can be saved. No one can walk in freedom from sin, until the have been born again, having received a new nature, that is empowered by the Spirit.




JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Yes the born again Christian still has a physical body that contains sin.

You need to supply at least one scripture saying that.
Christians have been reborn of God's seed, so you are inferring that God's seed has sin in it.
I disagree.

Paul warns Christians about sexual immorality.
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:15-17
again
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Paul warns Christians about using their body, the temple of God, for sinful practices, which will result in them being destroyed by God.
JLB

He sure does, and about dozens of other things too.
Why?
So they don't get derailed !
What did Paul say to do to the man who was "sexually immoral"?
THROW HIM OUT.
Men walking in the "flesh" are anti-God.
They are NOT Christians.

 

[JLB]

You need to supply at least one scripture saying that.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

 

[Elihoenai]

There is no mystery.
James made it perfectly clear that circumcision was not a part of Gentile conversion or their hope of salvation.
Our circumcision is of the heart, when our flesh was killed at our "immersion" into Christ's death. (Rom 6:4-6, Col 2:11-13)

2 Peter 3:16 King James Version

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

It's not possible to understand the New Testament/Greek Scriptures in isolation from Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures. You appear to be a New Testament Christian.

You must be Circumcised according to the Flesh and Heart to be Saved.

Prevalence of circumcision

"...United States

During the 2000s, the prevalence of circumcision in men aged 14–59 differed by race: 91 percent of non-Hispanic white men, 76 percent of black men, and 44 percent of Hispanic men were circumcised, according to data in Mayo Clinic Proceedings...."

Prevalence of circumcision - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Elihoenai]

In Abraham’s day it was an act of faith because the Lord told him to do it.



We are disciples of Jesus Christ, and have been circumcised by the Spirit, which not of man.



But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 2:29



Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.
1 Corinthians 7:18-20



I hope that is clear. I will say again, promoting physical circumcision is FALSE DOCTRINE.

• Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

Personally I am circumcised, and it means nothing. What matters is obeying the Lord.



Find another subject to talk about, because you will not be permitted to spread false doctrine about trying to convince people to openly rebel against what the scriptures say, to become physically circumcised in order to be saved.
This is blatantly false and leads people into deception.

DO NOT PROMOTE BECOMING PHYSICALLY CIRCUMCISED AGAIN IN THIS FORUM.


Here it is again, for the third time in case you missed it.

• Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

This is all the back and forth I will do with you on this subject.



God bless you, and may the Holy Spirit enlighten you in this matter.





JLB

Malachi 3:6 King James Version

6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Again, you appear to be New Testament/Greek Scripture Christian. It is impossible for New Testament Christians to understand Paul's, a Servant of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ, writings.

You must be Circumcised according to the Flesh and the Heart to be Saved.

Sinful, Weak and Cowardly Men change their Minds from generation to generation.

 

[Elihoenai]

At death or at His coming.

There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:40-44


However, we can reckon ourselves dead to sin, and by the Spirit put to death the sinful deeds of the flesh, so that we reign in dominion over sin while still alive.


Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:11-14




JLB

Are you saying that the Body of Sin will remain until physical death or the Second Coming of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ?

 

[Hopeful]

Please post the scripture whereby the gospel was preached saying repent of your sins.
Repenting, turning to God and submitting to Him as Lord, will result in being cleansed of sin, and empowered to walk in dominion over sin.
Nevertheless, the Gospel does command repent of your sins.
Yes the born again Christian still has a physical body that contains sin.

Paul warns Christians about sexual immorality.
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:15-17
again
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Paul warns Christians about using their body, the temple of God, for sinful practices, which will result in them being destroyed by God.
JLB

What that says is, first repent of your sins then you can be saved. No one can walk in freedom from sin, until the have been born again, having received a new nature, that is empowered by the Spirit.

I am glad you feel it is possible to walk without sin !

Yes the born again Christian still has a physical body that contains sin.
Paul warns Christians about sexual immorality.
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:15-17
again
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 3:16-1
Paul warns Christians about using their body, the temple of God, for sinful practices, which will result in them being destroyed by God.
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

He still has a physical body, but it is the Lord's body after rebirth. (Gal 2:20)
You are in essence sayin that there was sin in Jesus because He had a physical body.
I hope I am mistaken...

 

[Hopeful]

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. Romans 6:12

And those that obey God don't let sin reign. They yield their members servants to God and righteousness.
End of problem.