Are We Lost Without A Church?

[PaulChristensen]

Sure it is.
God said not to be a drunk, and drunks put their own feelings/wants above God's.
That is classic idolatry !

I guess that you have never worked with those who are addicted to anything. I guess that you have never sinned in your life so you have the right to point the judgmental finger at others.

 

[Serving Zion]

I don't know what you talking about with this post. It appears you have gone way off topic.

I wonder if you can help me with that then, because I can't see that what I have said is off-topic. All I have done is responded to you point-by-point, and it all looks pretty well relevant especially in context of the topic of the thread.

What is the Inverse of Righteousness?

There's a few different branches to the inverse of righteousness.

When we consider the Merriam-Webster Dictionary's definition of righteousness as the "morally right or justifiable", then the inverse must include something that makes a person incapable of being justified according to morality. I always take Matthew 7:12 as the best ultimate definition - it eliminates arguments about "subjective" and "objective" morality by fusing the two into one.

What leads a person to doing something that they cannot justify according to the moral law? Of course it must be sin, because the inverse of sin is love, and "love does no harm to a neighbour" and "there is no cause for stumbling in the one who loves his brother, because he abides in the light". Furthermore "love covers all transgressions".

So the one who is practicing the inverse of righteousness is walking in the darkness and is not doing unto others as he would have done unto him. I think some words that describe the inverse of righteousness might include "iniquity", "sin", "wickedness", "murder", "deceit" and so forth, but I think "iniquity" and "sin" are probably the two most broad and accurate words in my present vocabulary.

 

[Serving Zion]

Are you talking about the Second Coming?

I'm only telling you of what He has said to me "I am coming".

If yes, in what form will Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ return?

How can you be asking a question like that? Do you believe that the form of Jesus Christ has changed?

 

[Serving Zion]

2 Corinthians 6:14 King James Version

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

That's the most challenging part in this present time (Matthew 12:45).

Have you attended one of these Scattered and Obscured Churches? If yes, what Churches are you talking about?

I am speaking of the Universal Body of Christ as "The Church by Messiah/Christ Yeshua/Jesus" you are asking about. I have seen that, in accordance with scripture, its form and function is not unified through carnal structure, but its function is unified only by spirit whereby He operates in spirit through the vessels which are his, and those vessels being mortal shells of human beings scattered throughout the earth among the same environment as the tares.

 

[Serving Zion]

Have you attended one of these Scattered and Obscured Churches?

Yes, I usually recognise them when I see them (John 10:27).

 

[Hopeful]

Sure it is.
God said not to be a drunk, and drunks put their own feelings/wants above God's.
That is classic idolatry !

I guess that you have never worked with those who are addicted to anything.

You are mistaken.

I guess that you have never sinned in your life so you have the right to point the judgmental finger at others.

Not since I was reborn of God's seed.
It is God's judgement, not mine.
It is written..."Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor 6:10)

 

[PaulChristensen]

You are mistaken.

Not since I was reborn of God's seed.
It is God's judgement, not mine.
It is written..."Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor 6:10)

So, you're basically telling our alcoholic friend on the thread that he is going to hell, right? How does that relate to:
"By grace are you saved, through faith; not of ourselves, but is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

So, you are saying that God's grace doesn't extend to a struggling alcoholic who would love to be free from the addiction but doesn't know how, or whether he has even the strength?

The trouble is that most churches don't know how to apply the power of the Holy Spirit to those who desperately need it, and to cover up for their spiritual bankruptcy, they would rather drop condemnation bombs on the sinners that Christ came to save and sanctify.

 

[Serving Zion]

So, you're basically telling our alcoholic friend on the thread that he is going to hell, right?

Inheriting the Kingdom of God is not about entering eternal rest in the presence of the Lord. It's about having a name among the angels in the here and now to participate in God's works before we die (Luke 17:20-21, Hebrews 12:18-28). It is because of righteousness that the power of God is awarded to do justice (Romans 8:33) and "our weapons of warfare are not carnal".

 

[Hopeful]

So, you're basically telling our alcoholic friend on the thread that he is going to hell, right? How does that relate to:
"By grace are you saved, through faith; not of ourselves, but is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

I'm telling him that the power to abstain from every sin is inside us.
When we decide to travel that narrow road, we will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost to help us.

So, you are saying that God's grace doesn't extend to a struggling alcoholic who would love to be free from the addiction but doesn't know how, or whether he has even the strength?

I'm saying that those who are stuck in a self destructive life-style aren't using that Eph 2 promise.

The trouble is that most churches don't know how to apply the power of the Holy Spirit to those who desperately need it, and to cover up for their spiritual bankruptcy, they would rather drop condemnation bombs on the sinners that Christ came to save and sanctify.

If the "sinner" doesn't want to be "sanctified", he won't be.
When I became a Christian, my repentance from sin was all encompassing...including alcoholism and addiction to other drugs.
And a host of other things too.
God's power to free me, is available to all men.

 

[Elihoenai]

I don't know of any church that I have been associated with that gives a licence to sin. I wonder what type of churches you have been to?

That's because all so-called Christian Churches are Satanic Temples in disguise. These Churches deliberately and in calculated way work in opposition to True Yeshua/Jesus to malign and tarnish his Good Name.

We know this because we have the Original Teachings of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ that the Vatican has been hiding from Billions over thousands of years. The Roman Catholic Church is built on Sinners.

 

[Elihoenai]

I wonder if you can help me with that then, because I can't see that what I have said is off-topic. All I have done is responded to you point-by-point, and it all looks pretty well relevant especially in context of the topic of the thread.


There's a few different branches to the inverse of righteousness.

When we consider the Merriam-Webster Dictionary's definition of righteousness as the "morally right or justifiable", then the inverse must include something that makes a person incapable of being justified according to morality. I always take Matthew 7:12 as the best ultimate definition - it eliminates arguments about "subjective" and "objective" morality by fusing the two into one.

What leads a person to doing something that they cannot justify according to the moral law? Of course it must be sin, because the inverse of sin is love, and "love does no harm to a neighbour" and "there is no cause for stumbling in the one who loves his brother, because he abides in the light". Furthermore "love covers all transgressions".

So the one who is practicing the inverse of righteousness is walking in the darkness and is not doing unto others as he would have done unto him. I think some words that describe the inverse of righteousness might include "iniquity", "sin", "wickedness", "murder", "deceit" and so forth, but I think "iniquity" and "sin" are probably the two most broad and accurate words in my present vocabulary.

John 14:15 King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Given that you have stated the inverse of Sin is Love, would you say that Love is Sinless?

Love is keeping the Commandments. What Commandments is Yeshua/Jesus talking about?

 

[Elihoenai]

I'm only telling you of what He has said to me "I am coming".


How can you be asking a question like that? Do you believe that the form of Jesus Christ has changed?

The reason for question is there is dispute about the nature of Yeshua's/Jesus's Second Coming:

Quote:
"Views about the nature of Jesus's Second Coming vary among Christian denominations and among individual Christians, as well as among Muslims."

 

[Elihoenai]

That's the most challenging part in this present time (Matthew 12:45).

I am speaking of the Universal Body of Christ as "The Church by Messiah/Christ Yeshua/Jesus" you are asking about. I have seen that, in accordance with scripture, its form and function is not unified through carnal structure, but its function is unified only by spirit whereby He operates in spirit through the vessels which are his, and those vessels being mortal shells of human beings scattered throughout the earth among the same environment as the tares.

Matthew 28:18 King James Version

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Yes, there is The Spiritual and The Earthly Church. Elohim/God has given Yeshua/Jesus Power over both The Spiritual and The Earthly. The Spiritual Hates The Earthly and the Earthly Hates The Spiritual.

 

[Elihoenai]

Yes, I usually recognise them when I see them (John 10:27).

Amen. When you know the True message you can identify those following that message.

 

[Serving Zion]

Given that you have stated the inverse of Sin is Love, would you say that Love is Sinless?

Yes, one who is operating in love is doing no sin, and one who is sinning is not doing what love would do. They are opposite and mutually exclusive motivating factors for actions.

What Commandments is Yeshua/Jesus talking about?

In John 14:21 Jesus says it is the commandments that He gives. "The one who has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me". Your verse 16 says that if we love Him then we will keep the commandments. That's actually speaking of two different things. In verse 16 He is referring to the commandments specified by the religious instructions to the holy people of God, delivered by the writings of the prophets. In verse 21 He says that He personally gives His commandments to each one, and if anyone has those commandments and keeps them then he shall be loved by God and he will get to see who Christ Jesus is. The reason for keeping the commandments in verse 16 is to glorify His name through the visible impeccability of His people (Matthew 5:20).

The reason for question is there is dispute about the nature of Yeshua's/Jesus's Second Coming:

Quote:
"Views about the nature of Jesus's Second Coming vary among Christian denominations and among individual Christians, as well as among Muslims."

I know nothing about those disputes and I avoid speculative matters. If you can show me some scripture suggesting that His returning form is not clearly defined then I could give some opinion about that.

Yes, there is The Spiritual and The Earthly Church.

When I say that I am looking for the "congregation of the righteous", I am expecting to find a cohesive collection of people who are righteous. Is that something you have ever found? I keep being met with the answer that "there is no perfect church" and therefore that I should not expect to find it, but I am dismayed to find that attitude in all the churches because Psalms 1:5 clearly shows that it is right to expect to find it.

Amen. When you know the True message you can identify those following that message.

That's ok, but it doesn't constitute a "congregation of the righteous" when they are scattered and obscured among the tares, most often not even knowing the reality of these things. It's also the spirit and not the message that defines them. If a person is of the right spirit, then they will come to have the right message in response to the information that leads to that message. It is possible though, through the marvelous mercies of God, that some have been raised in an environment that has prevented their access to the real knowledge of the authentic message, but because they have remained in good concience according to God's expectation of them, they have not been disqualified from the message because they have not yet had an opportunity to reject it. That's why I have said that those belonging to Him are recognised by their spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's because all so-called Christian Churches are Satanic Temples in disguise. These Churches deliberately and in calculated way work in opposition to True Yeshua/Jesus to malign and tarnish his Good Name.

We know this because we have the Original Teachings of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ that the Vatican has been hiding from Billions over thousands of years. The Roman Catholic Church is built on Sinners.

You sound like a gnostic.
Just full of secret information you won't share with others.

Either explain the Jesus you think only you know...or your questions are invalid.

 

[PaulChristensen]

That's because all so-called Christian Churches are Satanic Temples in disguise. These Churches deliberately and in calculated way work in opposition to True Yeshua/Jesus to malign and tarnish his Good Name.

We know this because we have the Original Teachings of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ that the Vatican has been hiding from Billions over thousands of years. The Roman Catholic Church is built on Sinners.

That's what Joseph Smith believed, so he started his own one, called the Mormon Church.

The church is only who the people are who belong to it. By calling all churches satanic, you are calling all other Christians who go to church satanic. I can't believe that you are saying that you alone has the true faith in Christ and everyone else has been deceived by the devil.

 

[Elihoenai]

In John 14:21 Jesus says it is the commandments that He gives. "The one who has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me". Your verse 16 says that if we love Him then we will keep the commandments. That's actually speaking of two different things. In verse 16 He is referring to the commandments specified by the religious instructions to the holy people of God, delivered by the writings of the prophets. In verse 21 He says that He personally gives His commandments to each one, and if anyone has those commandments and keeps them then he shall be loved by God and he will get to see who Christ Jesus is. The reason for keeping the commandments in verse 16 is to glorify His name through the visible impeccability of His people (Matthew 5:20).

Luke 18:18-20 King James Version

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Yeshua/Jesus is talking about the 10 Commandments. We must keep the 10 Commandments to inherit Eternal Life and Love. Do you agree with those statements?

I know nothing about those disputes and I avoid speculative matters. If you can show me some scripture suggesting that His returning form is not clearly defined then I could give some opinion about that.

Luke 24:39 King James Version

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Do you believe that Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ return will be in Flesh and Bones? The body he had after resurrection.

When I say that I am looking for the "congregation of the righteous", I am expecting to find a cohesive collection of people who are righteous. Is that something you have ever found? I keep being met with the answer that "there is no perfect church" and therefore that I should not expect to find it, but I am dismayed to find that attitude in all the churches because Psalms 1:5 clearly shows that it is right to expect to find it.

No, I have never found. In fact always found the complete opposite. I continued to attend Church to do battle for Elohim/God against the teachers of false doctrines and not for Fellowship. Don't attend Church now.

That's ok, but it doesn't constitute a "congregation of the righteous" when they are scattered and obscured among the tares, most often not even knowing the reality of these things. It's also the spirit and not the message that defines them. If a person is of the right spirit, then they will come to have the right message in response to the information that leads to that message. It is possible though, through the marvelous mercies of God, that some have been raised in an environment that has prevented their access to the real knowledge of the authentic message, but because they have remained in good concience according to God's expectation of them, they have not been disqualified from the message because they have not yet had an opportunity to reject it. That's why I have said that those belonging to Him are recognised by their spirit.

Ultimately it's the True Message that will get you Saved. You cannot have the Right Spirit by following the Wrong Message. You can have the Right Spirit that will lead to the True Message. Elohim/God will see whether sincere or not.

 

[Elihoenai]

You sound like a gnostic.
Just full of secret information you won't share with others.

Either explain the Jesus you think only you know...or your questions are invalid.

John 7:14-17 King James Version

14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.


Gnostic could be a valid description. The Scriptures teachers Esoteric and Exoteric knowledge.

 

[Elihoenai]

That's what Joseph Smith believed, so he started his own one, called the Mormon Church.

The church is only who the people are who belong to it. By calling all churches satanic, you are calling all other Christians who go to church satanic. I can't believe that you are saying that you alone has the true faith in Christ and everyone else has been deceived by the devil.

Joseph Smith is correct in that belief about some Churches being Satanic Temples. We don't agree with his doctrines, such as, Polygamy. We will not be doing what Joseph Smith done.

The Devil/Satan is the Great Deceiver and Roman Catholic Church is his most Powerful Instrument. When you practise false doctrine you are child of the Devil/Satan. Everything will be revealed when you see the True Message.