Are We Lost Without A Church?

[JLB]

So, you are saying that God's grace doesn't extend to a struggling alcoholic who would love to be free from the addiction but doesn't know how, or whether he has even the strength?

Of course God‘s grace is available to the drunk or drug addict to be free.

The reason Jesus wants the drunk or drug addict to be free from that sinful lifestyle is, He doesn’t want them to be lost.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21



Do you understand what the phrase, “will not inherit the kingdom of God”, means?





JLB

 

[PaulChristensen]

Joseph Smith is correct in that belief about some Churches being Satanic Temples. We don't agree with his doctrines, such as, Polygamy. We will not be doing what Joseph Smith done.

The Devil/Satan is the Great Deceiver and Roman Catholic Church is his most Powerful Instrument. When you practise false doctrine you are child of the Devil/Satan. Everything will be revealed when you see the True Message.

The true message has already been said. It is in the Bible.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Of course God‘s grace is available to the drunk or drug addict to be free.

The reason Jesus wants the drunk or drug addict to be free from that sinful lifestyle is, He doesn’t want them to be lost.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21



Do you understand what the phrase, “will not inherit the kingdom of God”, means?





JLB

If you take notice of the other items on the list, and then reflect on the behaviour of many church professing Christians, it will be a miracle if any inherit the kingdom of God on the basis you are suggesting.

 

[Serving Zion]

Yeshua/Jesus is talking about the 10 Commandments.

That is your assumption. I believe He is speaking of "the commandments" as a more general knowledge of God's decrees.

We must keep the 10 Commandments to inherit Eternal Life and Love. Do you agree with those statements?

Not necessarily. I believe that by inheriting Eternal Life (John 4:14) and abiding in Love (1 John 4:16) then we will keep the commandments by nature (1 John 3:8-9). The scripture of the Christian knowledge is clear that no person can be justified by their effort to keep the law (Romans 3:20) because the only function of the law is to condemn (1 Corinthians 15:56). But we who are free from sin by the spirit of God in us, overcome the law's power of condemnation because our desires are turned toward doing what God desires to do through us (Romans 6:13-14).

Do you believe that Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ return will be in Flesh and Bones? The body he had after resurrection.

There is a suggestion through 1 Corinthians 15:42,44 (BLB) "It is sown in decay; it is raised in immortality./It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." and John 20:17 (BLB) "Jesus says to her, “Do not touch Me, for not yet have I ascended to the Father." and also the fact in John 20:19 that He has appeared in their midst even though the doors were locked, we should be expecting Him to be more glorious and fearfully made than the vessel they had formerly grabbed and thrown out (Matthew 21:39, Philippians 2:8). This ability to appear anywhere at any time is much like the experience of Elijah and Moses in Matthew 17, but according to Revelation 21:3-4, His tabernacle will be not in heaven but among mankind. It's naturally difficult to imagine what His resurrected form may look like if we have never seen such a resurrected form.

 

[Serving Zion]

Ultimately it's the True Message that will get you Saved. You cannot have the Right Spirit by following the Wrong Message. You can have the Right Spirit that will lead to the True Message. Elohim/God will see whether sincere or not.

Yes, it is the intention of our decision that reveals the heart for judgment, so even in absence of the real knowledge of the truth, a person can be found "relatively" righteous because they have been of a righteous intention in an environment that has not provided righteous instruction. The real element of mercy is found in the fact that they might be yet proven to follow the truth when it becomes available to them. That's what you have described by saying "You can have the Right Spirit that will lead to the True Message." and then the only part they need is the information. The spirit in them is not devoid of life, it is merely lacking some vital doctrinal equipment.

 

[JLB]

If you take notice of the other items on the list, and then reflect on the behaviour of many church professing Christians, it will be a miracle if any inherit the kingdom of God on the basis you are suggesting.

I can’t speak for all the people in all the churches in my community, let alone in my city, much less in my state.


I just know what the scriptures says.


Paul says the same thing to the Ephesians.


But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7

• Let no one deceive you with empty words, because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

The Holy Spirit is pleading with them through Paul, not to be partakers of the wrath of God, along with the sons of disobedience.






JLB

 

[daninthelionsden]

Abusing alcohol, like all sins, separates us from God as well as from our brothers and sisters. I have to change or it will kill me.

Praying for you. I prayed the Lord to deliver me from tequila. I now can't stand the taste of even a beer. All I can think even when my wife wants to share a wine cooler is "Oh no. How many carbs is in that?" I pray the Lord makes it impossible for you to accept alcohol as anything more than foul tasting poison.

 

[Elihoenai]

The true message has already been said. It is in the Bible.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14 King James Version

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The True Message has been utterly perverted/corrupted for over 2000 years with the Devil/Satan dressed up as Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ.

 

[Elihoenai]

That is your assumption. I believe He is speaking of "the commandments" as a more general knowledge of God's decrees.

Matthew 22:40 King James Version

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

When speaking of the 2 Commandments you speak of the 10 Commandments, when speaking of the 10 Commandments you speak of all 613 Commandments. All Commandments can be summed up in 2.

Not necessarily. I believe that by inheriting Eternal Life (John 4:14) and abiding in Love (1 John 4:16) then we will keep the commandments by nature (1 John 3:8-9). The scripture of the Christian knowledge is clear that no person can be justified by their effort to keep the law (Romans 3:20) because the only function of the law is to condemn (1 Corinthians 15:56). But we who are free from sin by the spirit of God in us, overcome the law's power of condemnation because our desires are turned toward doing what God desires to do through us (Romans 6:13-14).

Matthew 22:36-39 King James Version

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Keeping the 10 Commandments is Love. Your nature is transformed by keeping the Commandments.

There is a suggestion through 1 Corinthians 15:42,44 (BLB) "It is sown in decay; it is raised in immortality./It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." and John 20:17 (BLB) "Jesus says to her, “Do not touch Me, for not yet have I ascended to the Father." and also the fact in John 20:19 that He has appeared in their midst even though the doors were locked, we should be expecting Him to be more glorious and fearfully made than the vessel they had formerly grabbed and thrown out (Matthew 21:39, Philippians 2:8). This ability to appear anywhere at any time is much like the experience of Elijah and Moses in Matthew 17, but according to Revelation 21:3-4, His tabernacle will be not in heaven but among mankind. It's naturally difficult to imagine what His resurrected form may look like if we have never seen such a resurrected form.

Yes, it's a Spiritual Body in Heaven. When Paul, a Servant of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ, states that we shall all be changed, who is this addressed to?

 

[Elihoenai]

Yes, it is the intention of our decision that reveals the heart for judgment, so even in absence of the real knowledge of the truth, a person can be found "relatively" righteous because they have been of a righteous intention in an environment that has not provided righteous instruction. The real element of mercy is found in the fact that they might be yet proven to follow the truth when it becomes available to them. That's what you have described by saying "You can have the Right Spirit that will lead to the True Message." and then the only part they need is the information. The spirit in them is not devoid of life, it is merely lacking some vital doctrinal equipment.

John 6:37 King James Version

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The Wicked can have Righteous Intentions. The ultimate measure of whether or not their intentions are Righteous is being lead to True Message or Falsehood. Provided they are genuine and sincere they will find Elohim/God.

 

[JLB]

Yes, it's a Spiritual Body in Heaven. When Paul, a Servant of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ, states that we shall all be changed, who is this addressed to?

Those who are in Christ.

 

[JLB]

When speaking of the 2 Commandments you speak of the 10 Commandments, when speaking of the 10 Commandments you speak of all 613 Commandments. All Commandments can be summed up in 2.

The law of Moses has been abolished.

The law of the Lord is eternal.




JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

Keeping the 10 Commandments is Love. Your nature is transformed by keeping the Commandments.

Paul went to great lengths through the letter of Romans, explaining that keeping the law does not produce the fruits of the spirit. In fact, he went so far as to say that the commandment of the law put him to death (Romans 7:9). So as Christians, we have learned that the opposite is true: it is not the keeping of the commandments that changes our nature, but it is because we have chosen to obey His instruction to us that we are changed and that by natural progression of sanctification leads us to become keepers of the law by nature. Most Christians actually don't obey Him though, because He is of the truth and their attachment to false doctrines has put them at odds with the truth that would save them.

Yes, it's a Spiritual Body in Heaven.

In context of how we have arrived at this topic (here is the original question: ) ...

Do you believe that Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ return will be in Flesh and Bones? The body he had after resurrection.

... We should be saying that it is His heavenly body returning to abide in the midst of mankind, according to the scriptures (eg: Luke 19:12, Revelation 21:3).

When Paul, a Servant of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ, states that we shall all be changed, who is this addressed to?

You refer to 1 Corinthians 15:52. I say it is those he has identified in Hebrews 10:39. Can you please explain the purpose of that question?

The Wicked can have Righteous Intentions.

That's most visible among those who are blind followers of Christ. Although they are motivated by wickedness, and their actions are effectively wicked, the fact that they say they want to do good proves that somehow the deceiver has convinced them that the wickedness they are doing is good. In the context of their perspective, it is righteous to do what they are doing (consider John 16:2).

The ultimate measure of whether or not their intentions are Righteous is being lead to True Message or Falsehood.

That's one way to prove it, yes. But even then it depends upon the perfect delivery of that message through the servants He has chosen to deliver it. If there is any opportunity for the devil through the blemishes of those chosen ones, it is possible that the deceiver may still have strength to hold them in their deception. In that case, it is possible that their continued refusal to accept the message can be due to righteous intentions (though being based on deceit not of their knowledge). Consider 2 Timothy 2:24-26.

Provided they are genuine and sincere they will find Elohim/God.

If He has revealed Himself to them. Matthew 25:37-39 seems to suggest that there are some who will be named among the saved who have not recognised Him when He has been present.

 

[Elihoenai]

Those who are in Christ.

When does this Change spoken of in Corinthians 15 happen?

 

[Elihoenai]

The law of Moses has been abolished.

The law of the Lord is eternal.




JLB

Matthew 5:18 King James Version

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Without the Law of Moses you have never been and will never be a True Disciple of Messiah/Christ. Are you Sinless?

 

[Elihoenai]

Paul went to great lengths through the letter of Romans, explaining that keeping the law does not produce the fruits of the spirit. In fact, he went so far as to say that the commandment of the law put him to death (Romans 7:9). So as Christians, we have learned that the opposite is true: it is not the keeping of the commandments that changes our nature, but it is because we have chosen to obey His instruction to us that we are changed and that by natural progression of sanctification leads us to become keepers of the law by nature. Most Christians actually don't obey Him though, because He is of the truth and their attachment to false doctrines has put them at odds with the truth that would save them.

Romans 3:31 King James Version

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Law is Established through Faith!

You refer to 1 Corinthians 15:52. I say it is those he has identified in Hebrews 10:39. Can you please explain the purpose of that question?

When does this Change spoken of in Corinthians 15 happen?

That's most visible among those who are blind followers of Christ. Although they are motivated by wickedness, and their actions are effectively wicked, the fact that they say they want to do good proves that somehow the deceiver has convinced them that the wickedness they are doing is good. In the context of their perspective, it is righteous to do what they are doing (consider John 16:2).

1 John 3:8 King James Version

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Every man is Wicked/Evil until he turns to the True Elohim/God to destroy the works of the Devil/Satan?

That's one way to prove it, yes. But even then it depends upon the perfect delivery of that message through the servants He has chosen to deliver it. If there is any opportunity for the devil through the blemishes of those chosen ones, it is possible that the deceiver may still have strength to hold them in their deception. In that case, it is possible that their continued refusal to accept the message can be due to righteous intentions (though being based on deceit not of their knowledge). Consider 2 Timothy 2:24-26.

I have never seen or heard any claiming authority of being Chosen Servants teaching the True Message. We have the True Message.

If He has revealed Himself to them. Matthew 25:37-39 seems to suggest that there are some who will be named among the saved who have not recognised Him when He has been present.

Luke 11:9 King James Version

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Yet, they have still found the Father because Elohim/God has seen sincerity. Seek and you shall find. Knock and it will opened unto you.

 

[JLB]

When does this Change spoken of in Corinthians 15 happen?

Those who are in Christ are resurrected.

 

[JLB]

Matthew 5:18 King James Version

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Without the Law of Moses you have never been and will never be a True Disciple of Messiah/Christ. Are you Sinless?

The law of Moses was abolished in His flesh, on the cross.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16




JLB

 

[Elihoenai]

Those who are in Christ are resurrected.

Is this after physical death?

 

[Elihoenai]

The law of Moses was abolished in His flesh, on the cross.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16




JLB

The Law of Moses is the Law of Elohim/God.

We will ask the question again.

JLB, Are you this New Man that is Sinless?