Ask any questions about The Great Tribulation in this thread and you will recieve true information about it from me.

[for_his_glory]

How long after the rapture will the tribulation begin

First there is no scripture that speaks about a Rapture of the church before any seven year tribulation begins as this comes against scripture, Matthew 24:29-31; 24:36-39; 1 Corinthians 15:50-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:11-21. There are more, but these are enough to show there is no pretrib Rapture of the Church being the body of Christ with He being the head of the body.

No where in scripture does it mention a seven year tribulation that many try to teach, but only seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath as scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deut 4:30-31; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

 

[for_his_glory]

Moses was not buried because unlike Abraham, who was a patriarch, he was a prophet and major leader in the dispensations of God. As leader and dispenser of the Law he would've been given too much attention. Some would've worshiped him.

So he basically disappears from history, just as Enoch and Elijah did, both prophetic figures, as well. They were only the voice of God, and not God Himself. They didn't need a landmark to mark them as "God's voice."

I don't want to derail this thread, but I have to give this at this time.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelites never used chariots till the time of David.

There is more to this, but it needs to be another thread.

 

[RandyK]

In what way does getting ahold of Moses rotting corpse help Satan in that effort ?
I do not get the connection you are making?
Are you saying Satan wanted to rattle a bag of Moses's bones in the face of people ?

Satan considers it his job to disqualify people for Eternal Life. To disqualify Moses, who dispensed the Law, is to disqualify all of Israel, and by extension, all of humanity.

The question was concerned with the nature of this squabble. I'm not concerned about how it is characterized, as a "bag of bones," or as a "rotting corpse." This is just speculation--nothing more.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Satan considers it his job to disqualify people for Eternal Life. To disqualify Moses, who dispensed the Law, is to disqualify all of Israel, and by extension, all of humanity.

The question was concerned with the nature of this squabble. I'm not concerned about how it is characterized, as a "bag of bones," or as a "rotting corpse." This is just speculation--nothing more.

How would Satan make a claim to disqualify Moses from eternal life by having his dead body .
Moses was already with God the moment he died,
The Jews knew that.
There must be another reason Satan wanted the body of Moses.

 

[RandyK]

How would Satan make a claim to disqualify Moses from eternal life by having his dead body .
Moses was already with God the moment he died,
The Jews knew that.
There must be another reason Satan wanted the body of Moses.

I don't know. My thought was that the corpse of Moses was a reminder that he had been judged for his sin. Don't ask me if Satan keeps mementos. ;)

 

[Oseas]

What is the deal with Michael & Satan locking horns over the corpse of Moses ?
And why did this dispute end with God burying the body of Moses Himself ?
For me this is one of the strangest incidents in scripture that undoubtedly has some meaning for the future but the is not another word spoken about the purpose of it .
For me it must have something to do with God coming full circle with the nation Israel .
Apparently Satan has some insight into what the future holds for the appearance of Moses .
Very curious to me that Satan could have knowledge of such specific detail, coming from the mind of God .

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Greetings in Christ JESUS

Analyzing deeply Jude 1:9, not by the letter, the letter kills, but by the Spirit, the Spirit gives life.
Anallyzing the verse by partes:

First I would like to ask : Do you believe are many allegories in Scriptures? For example: Galatians 4:24-25.

Then, what does this part of the verse mean? -> "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the Devil he disputed about the body of Moses..."

It is not always easy to interpret the riddles of the Bible, or biblical enigmas, but interpreting them is very wonderful.

Then, in my view, I would say that what Jude refers in his epistle is not the body of flesh and bone of Moses, in fact he was referring to the people of Israel as the body of Moses, such as the Church is the body of JESUS. By the way, Michael was with Moses since the day the people of Israel got out of the Egypt, and he fought and disputed with the Devil the body of Moses, I mean Israel, until the day Moses died. - -> And now, even now, in this current time, Michael will dispute and fight against the Devil about the body of JESUS, the Church of the Lord- Revelation 12, take a look.


Another point of the verse hard to understand:

... "durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee".

What I go to write is a clue, I think you perhaps can make it better than I in to deceipher this deep enigma.

Here goes: -> Why did Michael use not his Sword against the Devil, and only said to him: The Lord rebuke thee ? This is very hard to interpret and understand, it because as Paul Apostle explained,

""GOD hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and GOD hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"1Corinthians 1:27-28. Furthermore, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD hath prepared for them that love Him. But GOD hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of GOD""1Corinthians 2:9-10.

That said, then hear goes the answer: -> The Devil, the MAN of sin, son of perdition, a former Cherub, ruler of Eden, the tree of good and evil, the fig tree, he is a Jewish man(John 8:44 combined with John 17:12), but the archangel Michael is not a Jewish man, but something like Melchisedec-Hebrews 7:1-4, take a look, without genealogy. How could Michael being not a Jewish man to rebuke the Devil, a Jewish man, the son of perdition? -John 8:44 an John 17:12. It's it, but I think you perhaps can make it better than I in to deceipher these deep enigmas.

GOD BLESS

 

[Consecrated Life]

Greetings in Christ JESUS

Analyzing deeply Jude 1:9, not by the letter, the letter kills, but by the Spirit, the Spirit gives life.
Anallyzing the verse by partes:

First I would like to ask : Do you believe are many allegories in Scriptures? For example: Galatians 4:24-25.

Then, what does this part of the verse mean? -> "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the Devil he disputed about the body of Moses..."

It is not always easy to interpret the riddles of the Bible, or biblical enigmas, but interpreting them is very wonderful.

Then, in my view, I would say that what Jude refers in his epistle is not the body of flesh and bone of Moses, in fact he was referring to the people of Israel as the body of Moses, such as the Church is the body of JESUS. By the way, Michael was with Moses since the day the people of Israel got out of the Egypt, and he fought and disputed with the Devil the body of Moses, I mean Israel, until the day Moses died. - -> And now, even now, in this current time, Michael will dispute and fight against the Devil about the body of JESUS, the Church of the Lord- Revelation 12, take a look.


Another point of the verse hard to understand:

... "durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee".

What I go to write is a clue, I think you perhaps can make it better than I in to deceipher this deep enigma.

Here goes: -> Why did Michael use not his Sword against the Devil, and only said to him: The Lord rebuke thee ? This is very hard to interpret and understand, it because as Paul Apostle explained,

""GOD hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and GOD hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"1Corinthians 1:27-28. Furthermore, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD hath prepared for them that love Him. But GOD hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of GOD""1Corinthians 2:9-10.

That said, then hear goes the answer: -> The Devil, the MAN of sin, son of perdition, a former Cherub, ruler of Eden, the tree of good and evil, the fig tree, he is a Jewish man(John 8:44 combined with John 17:12), but the archangel Michael is not a Jewish man, but something like Melchisedec-Hebrews 7:1-4, take a look, without genealogy. How could Michael being not a Jewish man to rebuke the Devil, a Jewish man, the son of perdition? -John 8:44 an John 17:12. It's it, but I think you perhaps can make it better than I in to deceipher these deep enigmas.

GOD BLESS

For me there is actual physical history to support this incident concerning the body of Moses .
Next to Abraham who can be considered the greatest of the patriarchs other than Moses.
Yet the burial site of all other Jewish patriarchs is well known to this day.

Hebron: Tomb of the Patriarchs and Matriarchs (Ma’arat HaMachpelah)​

The fact that there is no known burial site of Moses who in my opinion even rivals Abraham in terms of importance to the establishment of Israel lends full support to the incident being based in fact just the way it is written .
Lending even more validity to the incident in my opinion is the fact that we have a ancient location for the burial site of Arron the brother of the leader Moses , but nothing for Moses?

Tomb of Aaron (Jordan)

The incident with Michale taken as fact gives clear answer to the mystery of why no site for the Jews greatest leader ?
For me the question still stands as to the , WHY?

 

[MisterE]

If you want the truth, then you should search for the truth. I'm here to answer any questions about the Tribulation.

When does the Rapture happen in relation to the Tribulation?

 

[Oseas]

For me there is actual physical history to support this incident concerning the body of Moses .
Next to Abraham who can be considered the greatest of the patriarchs other than Moses.
Yet the burial site of all other Jewish patriarchs is well known to this day.

Hebron: Tomb of the Patriarchs and Matriarchs (Ma’arat HaMachpelah)​

The fact that there is no known burial site of Moses who in my opinion even rivals Abraham in terms of importance to the establishment of Israel lends full support to the incident being based in fact just the way it is written .
Lending even more validity to the incident in my opinion is the fact that we have a ancient location for the burial site of Arron the brother of the leader Moses , but nothing for Moses?

Tomb of Aaron (Jordan)

The incident with Michale taken as fact gives clear answer to the mystery of why no site for the Jews greatest leader ?
For me the question still stands as to the , WHY?

Deuteronomy 34:6 says: And He buried him in the valley, in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Pe'or. And no person knows the place of his burial, unto this day.

Lucas 9:29-31
29 And as JESUS prayed, the fashion of His countenance was altered, and His raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with Him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of His decease which He should accomplish at Jerusalem.

The Scriptures above may give a clue to the WHY.

 

[Witness]

Deuteronomy 34:6 says: And He buried him in the valley, in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Pe'or. And no person knows the place of his burial, unto this day.

Lucas 9:29-31
29 And as JESUS prayed, the fashion of His countenance was altered, and His raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with Him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of His decease which He should accomplish at Jerusalem.

The Scriptures above may give a clue to the WHY.

They will return in the flesh as the two witnesses, so unto die only once of the flesh, when they are killed by the beast on that day. They were translated and walk among us, hidden until it is time.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

When does the Rapture happen in relation to the Tribulation?

No rapture, only resurrection.

 

[MisterE]

No rapture, only resurrection.

When does this following passage take place?

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me.
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
You know the way to the place where I am going.”

And, just in case you think the Rapture is the same as the Resurrection, note these differences between these two events:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air

"Air" is not high up in the sky, but this world of which Satan is the ruler. He can tempt Jesus by offering all the kingdoms of the world because it was his to give. Also, Jesus comes with heavenly army (Rev. 19:14), that's angels, the "hosts of heaven" in OT prophecies, not necessarily the saints.

In which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience. (Eph. 2:2)

2. All believers are translated into new bodies

Since Jesus rose in a new body, so will all believers, nobody resurrects in their old body, read 1 Cor. 15:50 - in the specific context of resurrection.

3. Christians are taken to the Father's House

The Father's house is God's millennial kingdom on EARTH - not in heaven.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:5)
Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. (Matt. 6:10)

4. There is no judgment on the earth

Yes there is, all Christians will gather before the Lord for judgement, 2 Cor. 5:10. If you're referring to the great tribulation, whether Christians will experience it or not depends on which church they're in:

(To the corrupt Thyatira church) Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. (Rev. 2:22)
(To the faithful Philadelphia church) Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

5. The Church will be in Heaven

No, still on earth. "Air" is referring to the earthly realm, see above.

6. It is an imminent occurrence

So? The word for "quickly" or "shortly" is "tachy", which actually means "rapidly" as in the word "tachicardia", a medical condition - over 100 heart beats per minute. That's not the same as "imminent". Jesus compared his coming with lightning, is lightning imminent at anytime? Or prior to raining, with apparent signs such as cloudy sky and higher air pressure?

7. There are no signs preceding it

Yes there are, Jesus gave a whole sermon about those signs known as the Olivet Discourse.

8. It affects believers only

Yes and no, believers only will rise, but eventually unbelievers will rise too at the white throne judgement.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan. 12:2)

9. It is a time of joy

Do you not know that the broad context of 1 Thess. 4 was mourning of the dead, and that's why Paul wrote these words for the Thessalonians to comfort one another (4:18)?

10. it occurs before the day of Wrath

No, God's wrath is not Satan's wrath, God's wrath is the seven bowls which only target those who have taken the mark of the Beast, Satan's wrath is pured out on God's people during the three and a half year tribulation.

11. No mention of Satan

No mention of Satan by you or by the bible?

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3-4)

12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next

Yes, next to the resurrection.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Cor. 5:10)

13. There is the marriage of the Lamb

Which is set at the second coming of Christ, after the fall of Babylon the Great:

And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Rev. 19:6-8)

14. Only Christ's own will see him

Says you, not the bible. All eyes will see him.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:30)

15. The Tribulation begins

No, the tribulation ends. Again, whether Christians will experience it or not depends on which church they're in, and being spared from the tribulation simply means dead before the tribulation, hence the dead who will rise first in 1 Thess. 4:16.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The bottom line is that there's only one second coming of Christ, no third, fourth or more comings, and no "secret" coming beforehand - how would it be secret when it accompanies with the sounding of trumpet and shout of an archangel? He won't return separately as the bridegroom and as the king of kings, those two are the same told from two different perspectives. To His people He's already king of kings, he returns as the bridegroom for the wedding; the title "king of kings" is spoken to those other "kings" who are united and rebelling against Him, that's for the unbelievers. Also, this one and only second coming would be public for all the world to see, it's not gonna be private.

“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.” (Rev. 17:12-14)
Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.” (Rev. 19:17-18)