Ask any questions about The Great Tribulation in this thread and you will recieve true information about it from me.

[for_his_glory]

How long after the rapture will the tribulation begin

First there is no scripture that speaks about a Rapture of the church before any seven year tribulation begins as this comes against scripture, Matthew 24:29-31; 24:36-39; 1 Corinthians 15:50-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:11-21. There are more, but these are enough to show there is no pretrib Rapture of the Church being the body of Christ with He being the head of the body.

No where in scripture does it mention a seven year tribulation that many try to teach, but only seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath as scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deut 4:30-31; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

 

[for_his_glory]

Moses was not buried because unlike Abraham, who was a patriarch, he was a prophet and major leader in the dispensations of God. As leader and dispenser of the Law he would've been given too much attention. Some would've worshiped him.

So he basically disappears from history, just as Enoch and Elijah did, both prophetic figures, as well. They were only the voice of God, and not God Himself. They didn't need a landmark to mark them as "God's voice."

I don't want to derail this thread, but I have to give this at this time.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelites never used chariots till the time of David.

There is more to this, but it needs to be another thread.

 

[RandyK]

In what way does getting ahold of Moses rotting corpse help Satan in that effort ?
I do not get the connection you are making?
Are you saying Satan wanted to rattle a bag of Moses's bones in the face of people ?

Satan considers it his job to disqualify people for Eternal Life. To disqualify Moses, who dispensed the Law, is to disqualify all of Israel, and by extension, all of humanity.

The question was concerned with the nature of this squabble. I'm not concerned about how it is characterized, as a "bag of bones," or as a "rotting corpse." This is just speculation--nothing more.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Satan considers it his job to disqualify people for Eternal Life. To disqualify Moses, who dispensed the Law, is to disqualify all of Israel, and by extension, all of humanity.

The question was concerned with the nature of this squabble. I'm not concerned about how it is characterized, as a "bag of bones," or as a "rotting corpse." This is just speculation--nothing more.

How would Satan make a claim to disqualify Moses from eternal life by having his dead body .
Moses was already with God the moment he died,
The Jews knew that.
There must be another reason Satan wanted the body of Moses.

 

[RandyK]

How would Satan make a claim to disqualify Moses from eternal life by having his dead body .
Moses was already with God the moment he died,
The Jews knew that.
There must be another reason Satan wanted the body of Moses.

I don't know. My thought was that the corpse of Moses was a reminder that he had been judged for his sin. Don't ask me if Satan keeps mementos. ;)

 

[Oseas]

What is the deal with Michael & Satan locking horns over the corpse of Moses ?
And why did this dispute end with God burying the body of Moses Himself ?
For me this is one of the strangest incidents in scripture that undoubtedly has some meaning for the future but the is not another word spoken about the purpose of it .
For me it must have something to do with God coming full circle with the nation Israel .
Apparently Satan has some insight into what the future holds for the appearance of Moses .
Very curious to me that Satan could have knowledge of such specific detail, coming from the mind of God .

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Greetings in Christ JESUS

Analyzing deeply Jude 1:9, not by the letter, the letter kills, but by the Spirit, the Spirit gives life.
Anallyzing the verse by partes:

First I would like to ask : Do you believe are many allegories in Scriptures? For example: Galatians 4:24-25.

Then, what does this part of the verse mean? -> "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the Devil he disputed about the body of Moses..."

It is not always easy to interpret the riddles of the Bible, or biblical enigmas, but interpreting them is very wonderful.

Then, in my view, I would say that what Jude refers in his epistle is not the body of flesh and bone of Moses, in fact he was referring to the people of Israel as the body of Moses, such as the Church is the body of JESUS. By the way, Michael was with Moses since the day the people of Israel got out of the Egypt, and he fought and disputed with the Devil the body of Moses, I mean Israel, until the day Moses died. - -> And now, even now, in this current time, Michael will dispute and fight against the Devil about the body of JESUS, the Church of the Lord- Revelation 12, take a look.


Another point of the verse hard to understand:

... "durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee".

What I go to write is a clue, I think you perhaps can make it better than I in to deceipher this deep enigma.

Here goes: -> Why did Michael use not his Sword against the Devil, and only said to him: The Lord rebuke thee ? This is very hard to interpret and understand, it because as Paul Apostle explained,

""GOD hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and GOD hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"1Corinthians 1:27-28. Furthermore, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD hath prepared for them that love Him. But GOD hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of GOD""1Corinthians 2:9-10.

That said, then hear goes the answer: -> The Devil, the MAN of sin, son of perdition, a former Cherub, ruler of Eden, the tree of good and evil, the fig tree, he is a Jewish man(John 8:44 combined with John 17:12), but the archangel Michael is not a Jewish man, but something like Melchisedec-Hebrews 7:1-4, take a look, without genealogy. How could Michael being not a Jewish man to rebuke the Devil, a Jewish man, the son of perdition? -John 8:44 an John 17:12. It's it, but I think you perhaps can make it better than I in to deceipher these deep enigmas.

GOD BLESS

 

[Consecrated Life]

Greetings in Christ JESUS

Analyzing deeply Jude 1:9, not by the letter, the letter kills, but by the Spirit, the Spirit gives life.
Anallyzing the verse by partes:

First I would like to ask : Do you believe are many allegories in Scriptures? For example: Galatians 4:24-25.

Then, what does this part of the verse mean? -> "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the Devil he disputed about the body of Moses..."

It is not always easy to interpret the riddles of the Bible, or biblical enigmas, but interpreting them is very wonderful.

Then, in my view, I would say that what Jude refers in his epistle is not the body of flesh and bone of Moses, in fact he was referring to the people of Israel as the body of Moses, such as the Church is the body of JESUS. By the way, Michael was with Moses since the day the people of Israel got out of the Egypt, and he fought and disputed with the Devil the body of Moses, I mean Israel, until the day Moses died. - -> And now, even now, in this current time, Michael will dispute and fight against the Devil about the body of JESUS, the Church of the Lord- Revelation 12, take a look.


Another point of the verse hard to understand:

... "durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee".

What I go to write is a clue, I think you perhaps can make it better than I in to deceipher this deep enigma.

Here goes: -> Why did Michael use not his Sword against the Devil, and only said to him: The Lord rebuke thee ? This is very hard to interpret and understand, it because as Paul Apostle explained,

""GOD hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and GOD hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"1Corinthians 1:27-28. Furthermore, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD hath prepared for them that love Him. But GOD hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of GOD""1Corinthians 2:9-10.

That said, then hear goes the answer: -> The Devil, the MAN of sin, son of perdition, a former Cherub, ruler of Eden, the tree of good and evil, the fig tree, he is a Jewish man(John 8:44 combined with John 17:12), but the archangel Michael is not a Jewish man, but something like Melchisedec-Hebrews 7:1-4, take a look, without genealogy. How could Michael being not a Jewish man to rebuke the Devil, a Jewish man, the son of perdition? -John 8:44 an John 17:12. It's it, but I think you perhaps can make it better than I in to deceipher these deep enigmas.

GOD BLESS

For me there is actual physical history to support this incident concerning the body of Moses .
Next to Abraham who can be considered the greatest of the patriarchs other than Moses.
Yet the burial site of all other Jewish patriarchs is well known to this day.

Hebron: Tomb of the Patriarchs and Matriarchs (Ma’arat HaMachpelah)​

The fact that there is no known burial site of Moses who in my opinion even rivals Abraham in terms of importance to the establishment of Israel lends full support to the incident being based in fact just the way it is written .
Lending even more validity to the incident in my opinion is the fact that we have a ancient location for the burial site of Arron the brother of the leader Moses , but nothing for Moses?

Tomb of Aaron (Jordan)

The incident with Michale taken as fact gives clear answer to the mystery of why no site for the Jews greatest leader ?
For me the question still stands as to the , WHY?

 

[MisterE]

If you want the truth, then you should search for the truth. I'm here to answer any questions about the Tribulation.

When does the Rapture happen in relation to the Tribulation?

 

[Oseas]

For me there is actual physical history to support this incident concerning the body of Moses .
Next to Abraham who can be considered the greatest of the patriarchs other than Moses.
Yet the burial site of all other Jewish patriarchs is well known to this day.

Hebron: Tomb of the Patriarchs and Matriarchs (Ma’arat HaMachpelah)​

The fact that there is no known burial site of Moses who in my opinion even rivals Abraham in terms of importance to the establishment of Israel lends full support to the incident being based in fact just the way it is written .
Lending even more validity to the incident in my opinion is the fact that we have a ancient location for the burial site of Arron the brother of the leader Moses , but nothing for Moses?

Tomb of Aaron (Jordan)

The incident with Michale taken as fact gives clear answer to the mystery of why no site for the Jews greatest leader ?
For me the question still stands as to the , WHY?

Deuteronomy 34:6 says: And He buried him in the valley, in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Pe'or. And no person knows the place of his burial, unto this day.

Lucas 9:29-31
29 And as JESUS prayed, the fashion of His countenance was altered, and His raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with Him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of His decease which He should accomplish at Jerusalem.

The Scriptures above may give a clue to the WHY.

 

[Witness]

Deuteronomy 34:6 says: And He buried him in the valley, in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Pe'or. And no person knows the place of his burial, unto this day.

Lucas 9:29-31
29 And as JESUS prayed, the fashion of His countenance was altered, and His raiment was white and glistering.

30 And, behold, there talked with Him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of His decease which He should accomplish at Jerusalem.

The Scriptures above may give a clue to the WHY.

They will return in the flesh as the two witnesses, so unto die only once of the flesh, when they are killed by the beast on that day. They were translated and walk among us, hidden until it is time.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

When does the Rapture happen in relation to the Tribulation?

No rapture, only resurrection.

 

[MisterE]

No rapture, only resurrection.

When does this following passage take place?

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me.
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
You know the way to the place where I am going.”

And, just in case you think the Rapture is the same as the Resurrection, note these differences between these two events:

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air

"Air" is not high up in the sky, but this world of which Satan is the ruler. He can tempt Jesus by offering all the kingdoms of the world because it was his to give. Also, Jesus comes with heavenly army (Rev. 19:14), that's angels, the "hosts of heaven" in OT prophecies, not necessarily the saints.

In which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience. (Eph. 2:2)

2. All believers are translated into new bodies

Since Jesus rose in a new body, so will all believers, nobody resurrects in their old body, read 1 Cor. 15:50 - in the specific context of resurrection.

3. Christians are taken to the Father's House

The Father's house is God's millennial kingdom on EARTH - not in heaven.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:5)
Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. (Matt. 6:10)

4. There is no judgment on the earth

Yes there is, all Christians will gather before the Lord for judgement, 2 Cor. 5:10. If you're referring to the great tribulation, whether Christians will experience it or not depends on which church they're in:

(To the corrupt Thyatira church) Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. (Rev. 2:22)
(To the faithful Philadelphia church) Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev. 3:10)

5. The Church will be in Heaven

No, still on earth. "Air" is referring to the earthly realm, see above.

6. It is an imminent occurrence

So? The word for "quickly" or "shortly" is "tachy", which actually means "rapidly" as in the word "tachicardia", a medical condition - over 100 heart beats per minute. That's not the same as "imminent". Jesus compared his coming with lightning, is lightning imminent at anytime? Or prior to raining, with apparent signs such as cloudy sky and higher air pressure?

7. There are no signs preceding it

Yes there are, Jesus gave a whole sermon about those signs known as the Olivet Discourse.

8. It affects believers only

Yes and no, believers only will rise, but eventually unbelievers will rise too at the white throne judgement.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan. 12:2)

9. It is a time of joy

Do you not know that the broad context of 1 Thess. 4 was mourning of the dead, and that's why Paul wrote these words for the Thessalonians to comfort one another (4:18)?

10. it occurs before the day of Wrath

No, God's wrath is not Satan's wrath, God's wrath is the seven bowls which only target those who have taken the mark of the Beast, Satan's wrath is pured out on God's people during the three and a half year tribulation.

11. No mention of Satan

No mention of Satan by you or by the bible?

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3-4)

12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next

Yes, next to the resurrection.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Cor. 5:10)

13. There is the marriage of the Lamb

Which is set at the second coming of Christ, after the fall of Babylon the Great:

And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Rev. 19:6-8)

14. Only Christ's own will see him

Says you, not the bible. All eyes will see him.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:30)

15. The Tribulation begins

No, the tribulation ends. Again, whether Christians will experience it or not depends on which church they're in, and being spared from the tribulation simply means dead before the tribulation, hence the dead who will rise first in 1 Thess. 4:16.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The bottom line is that there's only one second coming of Christ, no third, fourth or more comings, and no "secret" coming beforehand - how would it be secret when it accompanies with the sounding of trumpet and shout of an archangel? He won't return separately as the bridegroom and as the king of kings, those two are the same told from two different perspectives. To His people He's already king of kings, he returns as the bridegroom for the wedding; the title "king of kings" is spoken to those other "kings" who are united and rebelling against Him, that's for the unbelievers. Also, this one and only second coming would be public for all the world to see, it's not gonna be private.

“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.” (Rev. 17:12-14)
Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.” (Rev. 19:17-18)

 

[MisterE]

At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air

Are you aware that the Post Trib position believes in both the Rapture and the Second coming as separate events? Post trib teaches that the Rapture happens right at the end of the Tribulation, which is the down fall of the Post Trib position (see below)

2. All believers are translated into new bodies

Since Jesus rose in a new body, so will all believers, nobody resurrects in their old body, read 1 Cor. 15:50 - in the specific context of resurrection.

This is the aspect of the Post Trib position that has converted many Post Tribbers to Pre Tribbers,. You can't have all believers have resurrected bodies at the end of the Trib because then there is no one left to enter the Mill in their natural bodies in order to populate the Mill. In the Mill there are children born and there will be death in the Mill, but if Christ has a resurrected body and all believers also have resurrected bodies, nobody is left at the end of the Trib to enter the Mill and populate it.

3. Christians are taken to the Father's House

No, this is not at all true. The Father's house is where Christ is NOW preparing our dwelling places. Christ is not on earth doing this.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:5)
Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. (Matt. 6:10)

4. There is no judgment on the earth

Yes there is, all Christians will gather before the Lord for judgement, 2 Cor. 5:10. If you're referring to the great tribulation, whether Christians will experience it or not depends on which church they're in:

This is not making much sense. There is no judgment ON THE EARTH at the Rapture.

5. The Church will be in Heaven

No, still on earth. "Air" is referring to the earthly realm, see above.

The Church is with Jesus at the Rapture. This is why the wife has made herself ready and returns with Jesus at the end of the Trib. The marriage takes place in heaven.

6. It is an imminent occurrence

So? The word for "quickly" or "shortly" is "tachy", which actually means "rapidly" as in the word "tachicardia", a medical condition - over 100 heart beats per minute. That's not the same as "imminent". Jesus compared his coming with lightning, is lightning imminent at anytime? Or prior to raining, with apparent signs such as cloudy sky and higher air pressure?

This is grasping for an answer. Nobody knows the time of the Rapture, but all believers can tell when the Second Coming will happen. The Second Coming of Christ is 7 years after the signing of the peace covenant, or 3 1/2 years from the abomination of desolation.

7. There are no signs preceding it

Yes there are, Jesus gave a whole sermon about those signs known as the Olivet Discourse.

You keep mixing the Second Coming with the Rapture. They are not the same events, not even with Post Tribbers. I would recommend you read scholarly commentaries by Post Tribbers, such as Robert Gundry and Douglas Moo. You will get a much better understanding of your position, in stead of mixing the Rapture and Second Coming passages.

8. It affects believers only

Yes and no, believers only will rise, but eventually unbelievers will rise too at the white throne judgement.

I am referring to the events at the second coming, which is what you have not addressed in my chart. Unbelievers do not get resurrected at the Second Coming.

9. It is a time of joy

The Rapture is a time of joy, at the Second Coming it a time that all unbelievers are assigned to hell. There will be great sorrow at this time. This difference I don't consider that important.

10. it occurs before the day of Wrath

No, God's wrath is not Satan's wrath, God's wrath is the seven bowls which only target those who have taken the mark of the Beast, Satan's wrath is pured out on God's people during the three and a half year tribulation.

The Trib is actually the same as the 70th week of Daniel. Either way, God's wrath is poured out during the beginning of the Trib. It is the Lamb who opens the seals to unleash the four horsemen, not Satan. Satan is involved in trying to destroy the Jews, but this is only done if God permits it. God is the initial source of the many who die during the first half of the Trib. But the second half (the Great Tribulation) will be unthinkable. Over half the world's population will die during the whole Trib.

11. No mention of Satan

No mention of Satan by you or by the bible?

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3-4)

This happens midway through the Trib, not at the Rapture. Satan is cast into the Abyss at the Second Coming, not at the Rapture.

12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next

Yes, next to the resurrection.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (2 Cor. 5:10)

Not sure what you are saying here.

13. There is the marriage of the Lamb

Which is set at the second coming of Christ, after the fall of Babylon the Great:

And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Rev. 19:6-8)

This is done in heaven. How did the Church get into heaven before the marriage of the Lamb which takes place BEFORE the Second Coming, since we accompany Jesus to earth.

14. Only Christ's own will see him

Says you, not the bible. All eyes will see him.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:30)

Throughout these responses by you, you get confused over the Rapture and the Second Coming. You go back and forth between them as if they were the same event. I know of no Post Trib scholar who would argue this.

15. The Tribulation begins

No, the tribulation ends. Again, whether Christians will experience it or not depends on which church they're in, and being spared from the tribulation simply means dead before the tribulation, hence the dead who will rise first in 1 Thess. 4:16.

This is borderline bizarre. I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

I have to cut some of you comments out so the post was under 10,000.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to this. Are you going to repond to the second half of my chart, i.e., At the Second Coming.

 

[Oseas]

They will return in the flesh as the two witnesses, so unto die only once of the flesh, when they are killed by the beast on that day. They were translated and walk among us, hidden until it is time.

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, understand? First JESUS prophesied, saying: Luke 21:24 -> ... Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The fulness of Gentiles just arrived-> Revelation 11:2.
And Paul Apostle prophesied: Romans 11:24-26- -->If thou wert cut out of the OLIVE TREE which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good OLIVE TREE: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own OLIVE TREE?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:->Revelation 7:1-8

What does the Word of GOD say?
The 2 witnesses areTWO OLIVE TREES, the source of OIL of the 2 Candlesticks
two Churches-> Gentile Church and Jewish Church, both are the BODY of our LORD JESUS(the 7 Churches of Asia are 7 Candlesticks-Rev.1:20).

The Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses (two churches- GENTILE CHURCH-(John 10:15-16, take a look), and Jesiwh Church(Revelation 7:1-8 combined with Hebrews 12:23) they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth(the Holy Spirit).

5 And if any man will hurt them(the two Churches-two Candlesticks), fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed(Daniel 12:7 and Revelation 13:4-9 and 11-17 combined with Revelation 12:7-17 and 16:13-15 and Daniel 12:6-12, take a look)

6 These (two Churches, two Candlesticks, two witnesses of the Word of GOD) have power (will have together with the God of the earth-the Holy Spirit)to shut heaven(END of the Dispensations of Grace,and of the world of Devil-Revelation 11:15-18), that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have POWER over waters(over peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues) to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Revelation 11:15-18
1Corinthians 15:24-27
24 The END cometh, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD(Revelation 11:15-18), even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN all RULE and all AUTHORITY and POWER. ->Revelation 1:7-8
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

God bless

Be careful or else get ready

 

[for_his_glory]

Mill there are children born and there will be death in the Mill, but if Christ has a resurrected body and all believers also have resurrected bodies, nobody is left at the end of the Trib to enter the Mill and populate it.

Where is this found in scripture?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It's not until the seventh trumpet is sounded that the kingdoms (nations) of this world will become the kingdoms (nations) of God and Christ as He will reign now forever over the nations. Jesus has never literally sat on the throne of David in Jerusalem, but has always been at the right hand of God until all His enemies have become His footstool, Psalms 110:1-4; Isaiah 66:1; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Ephesians 1:22; Hebrews 2:8; 10:12, 13. This happens when Christ returns as King of kings and Lord of lords subduing His enemies and destroying the beast and false prophet and binding Satan for a time of prophetic 1000 years, Rev 19-20.

Rev 20:1-10 It's during the millennium reign of Christ here on earth that all things are subject to Christ as He destroys the enemy and cast Satan into the lake of fire.

2 Peter 3:8 is not speaking about the 1000 year reign of Christ as the context is about God's longsuffering and patience from generation to generation as God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. There is emphases on the word "should" like that of should have, would have, could have, but many will be to late as Jesus will come on them as a thief in the night as at that time the door of Salvation will be closed forever as Christ destroys His enemies.

Rev 20:1-4 never mentions Christ literally reigning here on earth for a 1000 years. It says John only saw the future souls of those who were beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast, (not every soul that has ever died), live and reigned with Christ, but never mentions how long Christ's reign at that time is or where He is reigning from.

The scriptures I gave earlier in this post shows Jesus will never literally sit on the throne of David as this present earth and heaven will pass away then the New Jerusalem will be ushered down from heaven, Rev 21:1-3. Rev 20 shows nothing of Christ establishing a literal kingdom here on this present earth as Rev 11:15 only says at that time of the seventh trumpet the kingdoms (nations) of this world will become the kingdoms (nations) of our Lord and of His Christ. The meaning, then will all the enemies become the footstool of Christ as He makes all things subject unto Him.

Isaiah 13; Joel 3:9-17; Zechariah 14; Rev 19 speaks about the great battle against the enemies of God. When Christ returns with His army, being the host/angels from heaven who are the righteousness of God in heaven, He will then rule the nations with a rod of iron (power and great authority) destroying the enemy being the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire then killing all who have wondered after the beast and false prophet and have taken its mark. Then Satan will be bound for a time as Christ sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth as we who are of Christ own are then gathered up to Christ as we meet Him in the air and ever be with the Lord, 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

All things of the final battle with the beast and false prophet and all that followed after them is initiated by Christ who does all of this from the air, Rev 19:11-21. When Satan is loosed he will send his band of demons to compass the camp of the saints that are gathered in the air being the breadth of the earth in measurement as we are not on this present earth after being caught up to Jesus in the air, but they are consumed by fire (whether it is literal fire or just symbolic of God's wrath against them yet they are destroyed) that God sends down to destroy them and Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

Between the binding of Satan and being loosed scripture says 1000 years, but many parts of Revelation are symbolic in what John was shown in His visions as I see 1000 years only being a figurative numbering as I can't see God waiting a literal 1000 years before casting Satan into the lake of fire and then comes His final judgment and the new Jerusalem being ushered down from heaven after this present earth and heaven are restored back to what God created in the beginning.

Revelation 20:1-8 is the only passage in the entire scriptures that the premillennialists have as the basis for the 1000 year reign. Rev 20:4 doesn't speak about a 1000 year reign of Christ it says by the vision John received "and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It's not Christ that reigns 1000 years, but those who were killed for God's sake that reign with Christ a 1000 years as 1000 being a figurative number, not a literal number as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2 Peter 3:8.

Those who reign with Christ are those souls that had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus. In Revelations 6:9-11, are the souls of martyrs who had been slain for the word of God under an altar crying for vengeance. In Rev 20:4 the martyrs are on thrones. The difference between these scriptures is God's judgment has already come to those certain martyrs. The victory came in the spiritual realm of God, not the physical, and God assured their victory.

John was shown in a vision those souls that already had the victory over death as being in Christ. When we who are of Christ die before His return God has already passed judgement on us and we have the victory in Christ over that of the second death, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57. Those who are not of Christ will be judged and cast into the lake of fire. There is only one resurrection, but two judgements, John 5:28, 29. Those in Christ are raised first as those still alive at His coming will be gathered and caught up together to meet Christ in the air to be with Christ for eternity, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The rest are then raised for their judgement as rejecting Christ and there forever have their place in the lake of fire. Rev 20:4 says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly kingdom at Jerusalem.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(notice as in being figurative and not literal.)

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation 11:1-14 Two witnesses

Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 explains that these two witnesses are the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints with His Holy Spirit. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are one and three that bear witness in earth as being the Holy Spirit, the word and the blood of Jesus and these three agree in one, 1 John 5:7, 8. Only God can give power to act on His word as the Holy Spirit and Jesus bare witness to Gods power and authority especially through signs and wonders.

God exercises His power and authority through those of His great commission of Matthew 28:18-20 who are sealed by the Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 1:22, who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. The sackcloth represents the anguish of Gods servants as they remain humbled before the Lord while baring witness to Gods wrath on the unrighteous as these witnesses go forth continuing to preach to the nations.

Zechariah 4 speaks of two olive trees, but only one candlestick in the Old Testament. In this study we read there are two candlesticks. The two olive trees are the two anointed ones as being the two witnesses that are the Holy Spirit whom discerns and confirms the word of God in us by teaching us all truths, John 14:26, and Jesus being the light that shines in darkness as being the word made flesh to walk among us, John 1:1-5.

John is given the understanding that the two witnesses are in comparison to the two candlesticks and two olive trees, which if you read Zechariah Chapter 4 it explains that the golden candlestick is God. The seven lamps with the seven pipes that holds the oil (anointing) is that of the seven Spirits of God given to His Church: wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, might and Spirit of the Lord, Isaiah 11:2.

The two olive trees are to groups of people. One group being natural Israel (Old Testament) as a remnant according to the election of grace have been saved as in the 144,000 taken from the twelve tribes of Israel that remained faithful to God up to a thousand generations thereafter that remain faithful, 1 Chronicles 16:13-17. The other being Gentiles (New Testament) grafted into the branch by that same grace of God that have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and sealed by His Holy Spirit, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Romans Chapter 11. The two witnesses have always been those who of faith have stood by God and His law in the Old Testament and those of faith who stand by God and Jesus under the dispensation of grace in the New Testament.

The Disciples were sent out to preach to the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 10:5, 6 and Paul to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21, and so the same with these two witnesses throughout the generations as being two groups, one taking the Gospel to the lost sheep of Israel and the other group taking the Gospel to the Gentiles until Christ returns. They will be persecuted to death as Jesus was and all the martyr's before them and their bodies will lay in the street for three and a half days and then the Spirit of life from God will enter them and they will be caught up to heaven in a cloud, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. This will all occur during the seventh trumpet sounding as I believe all events during this time will happen quickly like 1 Corinthians 15:52 says in a twinkling of an eye we will all be changed and then caught up to Jesus during the seventh trumpet call.

 

[MisterE]

Where is this found in scripture?

Isaiah writes:

I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.
“Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

Here you can see children being born and those who die at a 100 years of age.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Are you aware that the Post Trib position believes in both the Rapture and the Second coming as separate events? Post trib teaches that the Rapture happens right at the end of the Tribulation, which is the down fall of the Post Trib position (see below)

I’m neither pre-trib, mid-trib nor post-trib, there’s NO “sudden disappearance” rapture, only global resurrection at the second coming. These labels are made up to cause confusion.

This is the aspect of the Post Trib position that has converted many Post Tribbers to Pre Tribbers,. You can't have all believers have resurrected bodies at the end of the Trib because then there is no one left to enter the Mill in their natural bodies in order to populate the Mill. In the Mill there are children born and there will be death in the Mill, but if Christ has a resurrected body and all believers also have resurrected bodies, nobody is left at the end of the Trib to enter the Mill and populate it.

You must have missed the part “the dead will rise first” in 1 Thess. 4:16, that means all generations of dead believers throughout history, plenty enough to populate the millennial kingdom.

No, this is not at all true. The Father's house is where Christ is NOW preparing our dwelling places. Christ is not on earth doing this.

Jesus the Lamb is NOW being crowned in heaven, as Rev. 4-5 depicted, and it’s not two thousand years, but merely two days - one thousand years is as one day with the Lord. Our dwelling place is right here, on earth, in his millennial kingdom.

This is not making much sense. There is no judgment ON THE EARTH at the Rapture.

There is NO secret rapture, only resurrection at the second coming, which by and of itself is the greatest judgement of the Beast’s army.

The Church is with Jesus at the Rapture. This is why the wife has made herself ready and returns with Jesus at the end of the Trib. The marriage takes place in heaven.

No, Jesus comes down to us. The same Jesus who was taken up will come down in like manner, Acts 1:11.

This is grasping for an answer. Nobody knows the time of the Rapture, but all believers can tell when the Second Coming will happen. The Second Coming of Christ is 7 years after the signing of the peace covenant, or 3 1/2 years from the abomination of desolation.

False narrative. There’s no seven year Tribulation, only 3 1/2 years. Daniel’s 70th week was already fulfilled by Jesus in his first coming. What makes absolutely no sense is putting the entire church age between the 69th and the 70th week.

You keep mixing the Second Coming with the Rapture. They are not the same events, not even with Post Tribbers. I would recommend you read scholarly commentaries by Post Tribbers, such as Robert Gundry and Douglas Moo. You will get a much better understanding of your position, in stead of mixing the Rapture and Second Coming passages.

You keep pushing a false narrative based on a modern heresy invented by Darby. What you call the rapture is the resurrection which takes place at the second coming, these two events go hand in hand, it’s not mixing.

I am referring to the events at the second coming, which is what you have not addressed in my chart. Unbelievers do not get resurrected at the Second Coming.

What "chart" and how is it relevant? Haven't you been clinging to the motto that no one knows the time? I'm referring to the events at the second coming too, it is you who's repeating your rapture talking points.

The Rapture is a time of joy, at the Second Coming it a time that all unbelievers are assigned to hell. There will be great sorrow at this time. This difference I don't consider that important.

The joy of resurrection and uniting with the Lord forever, that’s what it means in 1 Thess. 4:16-17.

The Trib is actually the same as the 70th week of Daniel. Either way, God's wrath is poured out during the beginning of the Trib. It is the Lamb who opens the seals to unleash the four horsemen, not Satan. Satan is involved in trying to destroy the Jews, but this is only done if God permits it. God is the initial source of the many who die during the first half of the Trib. But the second half (the Great Tribulation) will be unthinkable. Over half the world's population will die during the whole Trib.

Again, all false narrative, all fruits from a poisonous tree. 70 weeks already fulfilled.

This happens midway through the Trib, not at the Rapture. Satan is cast into the Abyss at the Second Coming, not at the Rapture.

The tribulation is only 3 1/2 years, this happens at the beginning.

Not sure what you are saying here.

You clarify first - which "judgement seat" are you talking about? There're at least two, one in 2 Cor. 5:10 for believers, the other in Rev. 20:12. What I'm saying is the first one, the judgement for believers according to each one's work.
Each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

This is done in heaven. How did the Church get into heaven before the marriage of the Lamb which takes place BEFORE the Second Coming, since we accompany Jesus to earth.

No, an army of angels accompany Jesus to earth, we herald him ON EARTH.

Throughout these responses by you, you get confused over the Rapture and the Second Coming. You go back and forth between them as if they were the same event. I know of no Post Trib scholar who would argue this.

Please stop sticking these labels on me, this "pre, mid, post-trib" is nothing but a lame sales tactic - which one is your size? What style are you looking for? I've made it crystal clear - no "rapture", only resurrection, which takes place exactly at the second coming, says the bible itself.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thess. 4:16)

This is borderline bizarre. I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

What I'm saying is debunking the misinterpretation of Rev. 3:10, which dispensationalists use to justify their "removal" which is what's really borderline bizzare. Haven't you noticed that tiny inconvenient detail that "spared from the trial" only applies to the faithful Philadelphia church? What if you belong to another church? Such as the corrupt Thyatira church, for which the great tribulation is guaranteed?

I have to cut some of you comments out so the post was under 10,000.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to this. Are you going to repond to the second half of my chart, i.e., At the Second Coming.

How about you cut off the Hollywood Left Behind series and rewire your mind to our real blessed hope, which is the future resurrection at the second coming of Christ? This rapture doctrine isn't just a fascinating thriller for fun, it has dire consequences, as it breeds apathy and complacency. If you're thoroughly convinced that you'll be removed into heaven, this world is only temporary, you're just passing by, then what's the reason to care about anything happening in this world? This world is going down to hell in a handbasket, the global order is collapsing, WWIII is on the horizon, there's nothing we can do about it, so why not just sit tight, behave well and wait for the "rapture"? This is spiritual sloth, the throwing the towel attitude, and that's what I'm responding.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Rev. 21:8)