Body, Soul, and Spirit

[Edward]

a good example , but far away, is the believers in china. similar to the better known smith wigglesworth of wales.
just being in their presence, seeing them in person, resulted in conviction of others around them, both known and unknown (relatives,friends and strangers -- i.e. not dependent on previous knowledge of the person).
not just in conviction, but Godly sorrow leading to repentance from their sinful lives. (everyone's life is sinful, before being purchased by the Blood of The Lamb of God. even the most religious and/or reclusive person is sinful until after being immersed in Yeshua).
the Light people may and should or ought to hopefully see, is the Light of True Life, the Light of Yeshua the Savior Messiah Healer.
as Yeshua said - what you do and speak flows out from you, whatever you are full of , that is what comes out..... and what others see.

Yes, I agree with you brother, there are scriptures which back up what you have said also. But in a way, your statements are "speaking loosely", or at least that is how I took them. Let's get (semi)-scientific for a moment and try to pin this down... The light that others see...what exactly is it? The power of God, the love of God, the "words", the spiritual energy (what is that even?), the Spirit of God?, the spirit of the man? What is it?

...out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks...fairly clear to a point. What a person dwells on, what their focus in life is, whether the Lord, or lust, or deception, thievery, is what we become and what we talk about. what we hold in our heart. What does this mean, in our heart? I think it could be how spiritual beings *think* and so forth. Even before the fall, we were able to think, though in a different manner than we do now. We ate from the tree, and began thinking with our flesh mind...the "heart" must be the (brain?) (core of the spirit?) control center of the being, and before the fall we were spiritual beings, and the spirit beings even now *think* differently than we do, as carnal beings.

 

[Edward]

I think "our" spirit communicates with God Ed.

1Co 14:2 KJV For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:14-15 KJV For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

This implies to me that God's spirit in us communicates with the Holy Spirit because we don't understand it.

Aha! thank you brother. I should have known the answer would be in scripture. I sit and think...and do not understand, we go to scriptures, and there it is. Thanks brother!

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

enjoy

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[Butch5]

I said earlier in this thread that my position is that man is a physical being with the breath of life in him. I've been contemplating whether or not to submit another topic that I thing is relevant to both this thread and the conditional immortality thread. I think I should but it may need it's own thread. I'll begin here and see where it goes.

I would like to suggest that there is a doctrine that is believe among the majority of Christians that is not a Christian doctrine. That doctrine is the "Heavenly Destiny" doctrine. The doctrine that says believers go to Heaven when they die. I would submit that this is not a Christian doctrine and is stated nowhere in Scripture. The reason I believe this is relevant is because many Christians believe that they have a spirit or soul that goes to Heaven which is contrary to the idea that man is a physical being. I would submit that God's original intention for man was to have dominion over the creation and that that is still His plan, it hasn't changed.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Gen 1:26-28 KJV)

David reiterates this.

3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: (Psa 8:3-6 KJV)

When Adam sinned he lost that dominion, however, God's plan was not thwarted, He would simply send another. Since Adam messed up God sent another man who would not mess up. Paul quotes this passage from David.

5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Heb 2:5-9 KJV)

Paul goes on to say, "But now we see not yet all things put under him." That Paul uses the word "yet" indicates that it is to come in the future. Notice Paul said, "but we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels." What does that mean? It means He was made man. Both David and Paul said that man was made a little lower than the angels, then Paul says that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. He was made man. Jesus did keep the Law and didn't sin, as such He is to inherit the the land as an everlasting possession. Those who are Christians are the children of God. In Romans 8 Paul says if children then heirs and co-heirs with Christ. He goes on in that chapter to explain how the creation is going to be liberated from the curse and he says it awaits the manifestation of the sons of God.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. {the...: or, every creature} (Rom 8:16-22 KJV)

The creation will be delivered into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.This is the kingdom, Christ will rule and Believers with Him and God's plan that man would have dominion over the creation will be realized.

What we see here is that man's purpose is not to leave the earth or to be a spirit, it is to have dominion over God's creation. That creation is a physical thing and man is a physical being to rule over it. Jesus was made man so that He could restore mankind to a point where he could rule over God's creation.

 

[Butch5]

I think "our" spirit communicates with God Ed.

1Co 14:2 KJV For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:14-15 KJV For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. (15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

This implies to me that God's spirit in us communicates with the Holy Spirit because we don't understand it.

HI Agua,

Here is another passage that says the Spirit prays when we don't know what to say.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Rom 8:26-27 KJV)

 

[JLB]

I said earlier in this thread that my position is that man is a physical being with the breath of life in him. I've been contemplating whether or not to submit another topic that I thing is relevant to both this thread and the conditional immortality thread. I think I should but it may need it's own thread. I'll begin here and see where it goes.

I would like to suggest that there is a doctrine that is believe among the majority of Christians that is not a Christian doctrine. That doctrine is the "Heavenly Destiny" doctrine. The doctrine that says believers go to Heaven when they die. I would submit that this is not a Christian doctrine and is stated nowhere in Scripture. The reason I believe this is relevant is because many Christians believe that they have a spirit or soul that goes to Heaven which is contrary to the idea that man is a physical being. I would submit that God's original intention for man was to have dominion over the creation and that that is still His plan, it hasn't changed.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Gen 1:26-28 KJV)

David reiterates this.

3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: (Psa 8:3-6 KJV)

When Adam sinned he lost that dominion, however, God's plan was not thwarted, He would simply send another. Since Adam messed up God sent another man who would not mess up. Paul quotes this passage from David.

5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Heb 2:5-9 KJV)

Paul goes on to say, "But now we see not yet all things put under him." That Paul uses the word "yet" indicates that it is to come in the future. Notice Paul said, "but we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels." What does that mean? It means He was made man. Both David and Paul said that man was made a little lower than the angels, then Paul says that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. He was made man. Jesus did keep the Law and didn't sin, as such He is to inherit the the land as an everlasting possession. Those who are Christians are the children of God. In Romans 8 Paul says if children then heirs and co-heirs with Christ. He goes on in that chapter to explain how the creation is going to be liberated from the curse and he says it awaits the manifestation of the sons of God.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. {the...: or, every creature} (Rom 8:16-22 KJV)

The creation will be delivered into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.This is the kingdom, Christ will rule and Believers with Him and God's plan that man would have dominion over the creation will be realized.

What we see here is that man's purpose is not to leave the earth or to be a spirit, it is to have dominion over God's creation. That creation is a physical thing and man is a physical being to rule over it. Jesus was made man so that He could restore mankind to a point where he could rule over God's creation.

I agree with much of what you are saying, except that when a Christian dies they do go to heaven to be with The Lord, until... He returns!

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 4:14

God will bring with Him...

Those who have died will return with the Lord when He comes to gather His people on the last Day.

As Jesus said -

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

His people have to be in heaven for Him to gather them from heaven.


JLB

 

[agua.]

I agree with much of what you are saying, except that when a Christian dies they do go to heaven to be with The Lord, until... He returns!

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 4:14

God will bring with Him...
Those who have died will return with the Lord when He comes to gather His people on the last Day.

As Jesus said -

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

His people have to be in heaven for Him to gather them from heaven.

JLB

It's interesting JLB that the dead righteous are described as sleeping and sleeping implies unconsciousness. All spirit returns to Yahweh at death so yes in that sense all believers are in heaven. This also means all unbelievers are in heaven too.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

......All spirit returns to Yahweh at death so yes in that sense all believers are in heaven. This also means all unbelievers are in heaven too.

Jesus said the kingdom of heaven(kingdom of God) is where God rules (willing subjects-Jesus disciples) , and that the scribes and pharisees or others not subject to God were the devil's children, not in heaven either before or after death. (obviously on judgment day they won't consider it as if being in 'heaven' , seeing as they don't get to have any joy or peace or righteousness, only sure and strict and certain and swift justice at that time.(i.e. woe to you who are comfortable now, you will suffer later.... )
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke 17&version=AMP
20 Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He replied to them by saying, The kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed or with visible display,
21 Nor will people say, Look! Here [it is]! or, See, [it is] there! For behold, the kingdom of God is within you [in your hearts] and among you [surrounding you].

 

[JLB]

It's interesting JLB that the dead righteous are described as sleeping and sleeping implies unconsciousness. All spirit returns to Yahweh at death so yes in that sense all believers are in heaven. This also means all unbelievers are in heaven too.

The reference to sleeping is that of the human body, not the spirit man, or inner man.

What is raised from the dust is the human body, not the spirit man or inner man.

Jesus gave you an eyewitness detailed version of life after death of the body, but for some reason you have rejected His words.

An unrighteous person who dies in there sins without the saving Grace of the Lord jesus Christ, goes to hell.

A righteous person who is born again, and is forgiven of their sins because of their faith in Jesus Christ and his payment for their sins on the cross, goes to heaven when their body dies [sleeps].

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15


Those who sleep, are here on earth "asleep" in the ground, while their spirit [man] is in heaven with Jesus and will return with Jesus when He comes to gather His People on the last Day.


26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

His people are clearly in heaven and will be gathered together at His coming.

I find it difficult to believe you would reject what Jesus taught us about the rich man, who was in torment in hell.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Cool yeah I agree everything belongs to Yahweh for sure. I'm trying to understand who is in control of the spirit inside us.

This spirit that Yahweh placed in each person is the crux of the matter imo and I agree it is the avenue He uses to speak to and regenerate us. What I want to know is if this spirit we're talking about here is the spirit/breath Butch has shown in Job 34. If it is then we can say it isn't something we have control over aside from following or rebelling against.

Yeah Deb this is basically what I think with a couple of nuances. Regeneration is shown as a process and we can see this being played out when Paul talks about the battle between the flesh and the spirit.
The question is what is this spirit that Yahweh is communicating with to regenerate/renew us. This spirit seems to have the ability, when provided, to do amazing things which aren't our doing ( the gifts of the Spirit ) and we don't even understand at times. This spirit speaks to the Holy Spirit without any cognition of this from us imo.

I think I agree with you if I am understanding you correctly.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
By referring to Psa. 104, I would say that Job 34 is saying man's spirit (ruach) and man's breath (nashamah)
I looked at a couple of the commentators, Matt Henry, Adam Clarke, and John Gill. They all agree that it is saying the spirit and breath are man's. http://biblehub.com/commentaries/job/34-1.htm

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath (ruach), they die, and return to their dust.
Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit (ruach), they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Rom 8:15-16 KJV For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

So this spirit of God's in all men will only begin the regeneration process once the Holy Spirit moves in. Ok how's this. This spirit is in all men and is stifled by our disobedience and fleshly desires and it isn't the spirit being regenerated but the man himself after we turn to God ? This spirit is basically the conduit for the Holy Spirit to work in.

I believe we have our own spirit, just as we have a soul and a body.
spirit-----> soul <-----body

I believe the soul (will, mind,etc.) is what needs to be renewed. The soul needs to catch up with what God already did in man's spirit. The more the man's soul is renewed by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God his actions change to be more like he is in his spirit and therefore, like the Messiah.

Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

In the OT, the temple had three parts to it, too.
The outer court, where everyone could go and they could see everything in the place, it was lit by the natural light of day.
The inner court was where only the priests could go. They worshiped God, gave offerings and sacrifices, they prayed. This area was lite by the lampstand that was fed the oil to keep it burning.
Then there was the Holy of Holies behind the vail. No one except the High Priest once a year, could enter there. It was lit by the presence of God because God dwelled there.

I found a Jewish explanation of the three Hebrew words for the breath. But I didn't want to post even more of what may not be of interest.

Yeah it was a silly question really please disregard it. ( for now :biggrin )



:biggrin So you've started wearing a vail ? I think Paul meant what he said too about body, soul, and spirit it's the definitions/distinctions that cause the problems.

I'm very pleased you are now wearing a vail Sister :biggrin

 

[agua.]

Jesus said the kingdom of heaven(kingdom of God) is where God rules (willing subjects-Jesus disciples) , and that the scribes and pharisees or others not subject to God were the devil's children, not in heaven either before or after death. (obviously on judgment day they won't consider it as if being in 'heaven' , seeing as they don't get to have any joy or peace or righteousness, only sure and strict and certain and swift justice at that time.(i.e. woe to you who are comfortable now, you will suffer later.... )
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke 17&version=AMP
20 Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He replied to them by saying, The kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed or with visible display,
21 Nor will people say, Look! Here [it is]! or, See, [it is] there! For behold, the kingdom of God is within you [in your hearts] and among you [surrounding you].

Ok Jeff I'm talking from an annihilation context mate.

The reference to sleeping is that of the human body, not the spirit man, or inner man.

What is raised from the dust is the human body, not the spirit man or inner man.

Jesus gave you an eyewitness detailed version of life after death of the body, but for some reason you have rejected His words.

Sleep is used synonymously with death in the Bible JLB. No consciousness. The Body is raised incorruptible and the spirit is returned to it at the resurrection.

What eye witness version from Jesus of life after death are you presenting JLB ? The Transfiguration ?

An unrighteous person who dies in there sins without the saving Grace of the Lord jesus Christ, goes to hell.

All people go to the grave at death JLB but only the wicked end in the LoF/ Gehenna. Which definition of hell are you using here ? The grave or Gehenna ?

A righteous person who is born again, and is forgiven of their sins because of their faith in Jesus Christ and his payment for their sins on the cross, goes to heaven when their body dies [sleeps].

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15


Those who sleep, are here on earth "asleep" in the ground, while their spirit [man] is in heaven with Jesus and will return with Jesus when He comes to gather His People on the last Day.


26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

His people are clearly in heaven and will be gathered together at His coming.

I find it difficult to believe you would reject what Jesus taught us about the rich man, who was in torment in hell.


JLB

You can't base a doctrine on a parable mate.

Sleep as a synonym for death implies no consciousness mate. We can't seriously think a piece of meat/body sleeps when it's buried but we can suggest a persons consciousness does. Notice in 1Cor 15 Paul tells us how the resurrection is for all people and as Christ rose first so will those who sleep in Him be raised when He returns, and then all others at the end. The only conditions presented here are death and life/resurrection with no in between status.

1Co 15: 212-25 KJV (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Mark 26:37 is def an interesting scripture mate I agree for sure.

Mar 13:26-27 KJV And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This refers to the living Saints who will be caught up together with those who sleep in Christ right ( dead Saints ) ?

1Th 4:14-16 KJV For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Co 15:51-52 KJV Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Again we can see death described as sleep have you wondered why ? It's because the unconscious state of the righteous will be temporary and they will awake from it to eternal life which is why it's encouraging to use the word sleep instead of dead. Oh since our spirit returns to Yahweh at death of course it will return from Yahweh, from Heaven, at the resurrection. The thing ECT confuses is that our spirits/self are def in Heaven with Yahweh but they aren't conscious but asleep.

 

[agua.]

I think I agree with you if I am understanding you correctly.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
By referring to Psa. 104, I would say that Job 34 is saying man's spirit (ruach) and man's breath (nashamah)
I looked at a couple of the commentators, Matt Henry, Adam Clarke, and John Gill. They all agree that it is saying the spirit and breath are man's. http://biblehub.com/commentaries/job/34-1.htm

Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath (ruach), they die, and return to their dust.
Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit (ruach), they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

This is interesting Deb I didn't know anyone thought the spirit/breath in Job34:14 was man's but after checking my Bible versions it seems they are split on it.
I assume this spirit/breath is Yahweh's considering we know from Genesis that His breath animated all life and so it makes sense that removing His spirit/breath would remove all life and fit well with what Job said. Psalm 104 is a doozy because it shows a spirit of man and a spirit of Yahweh's. From this I'm suggesting Yahweh's spirit gives us life and from this point the spirit is considered ours. I think Butch touched on this with ownership explanations earlier.

I believe we have our own spirit, just as we have a soul and a body.
spirit-----> soul <-----body

I believe the soul (will, mind,etc.) is what needs to be renewed. The soul needs to catch up with what God already did in man's spirit. The more the man's soul is renewed by the Holy Spirit and the Word of God his actions change to be more like he is in his spirit and therefore, like the Messiah.

Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

In the OT, the temple had three parts to it, too.
The outer court, where everyone could go and they could see everything in the place, it was lit by the natural light of day.
The inner court was where only the priests could go. They worshiped God, gave offerings and sacrifices, they prayed. This area was lite by the lampstand that was fed the oil to keep it burning.
Then there was the Holy of Holies behind the vail. No one except the High Priest once a year, could enter there. It was lit by the presence of God because God dwelled there.

I found a Jewish explanation of the three Hebrew words for the breath. But I didn't want to post even more of what may not be of interest.

I like the Temple analogy but have you considered the Holy of Holies was Yahweh's dwelling place ? ie. the spirit in us is His ? From this I can suggest the outer court is our flesh body, the inner court is our soul ( living body ) , and the Holy of Holies Yahweh's Spirit. The regeneration ( vail tearing ) allows our spirit ( Yahweh's ) access to Yahweh's Spirit ( Holy Spirit ) making this regeneration entirely His work.

Interesting stuff !

Speaking of vails :D

 

[JLB]

Agua said -

All people go to the grave at death JLB but only the wicked end in the LoF/
Gehenna. Which definition of hell are you using here ? The grave or Gehenna ?

Those who return with Jesus at His Coming?
1 Thessalonians 4:14, Zechariah 14, Revelation 19, Mark 13:27


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

This is interesting Deb I didn't know anyone thought the spirit/breath in Job34:14 was man's but after checking my Bible versions it seems they are split on it.
I assume this spirit/breath is Yahweh's considering we know from Genesis that His breath animated all life and so it makes sense that removing His spirit/breath would remove all life and fit well with what Job said. Psalm 104 is a doozy because it shows a spirit of man and a spirit of Yahweh's. From this I'm suggesting Yahweh's spirit gives us life and from this point the spirit is considered ours. I think Butch touched on this with ownership explanations earlier.

I like the Temple analogy but have you considered the Holy of Holies was Yahweh's dwelling place ? ie. the spirit in us is His ? From this I can suggest the outer court is our flesh body, the inner court is our soul ( living body ) , and the Holy of Holies Yahweh's Spirit. The regeneration ( vail tearing ) allows our spirit ( Yahweh's ) access to Yahweh's Spirit ( Holy Spirit ) making this regeneration entirely His work.

Interesting stuff !

Speaking of vails :biggrin

I consider at our spirit is the place where the Holy Spirit dwells in us. communing with God, teaching of the Holy Spirit, pray in the spirit, worship in the spirit......
The inner court being like our soul, mind, will, emotions, pray with understanding, worship with understanding, speech, control of what our body does in actions, behaviors...
But I also believe that everything comes through to the soul. In other words the spirit does not control the actions of the body but the inspiration of the Holy Spirit flows to the soul and the soul controls thoughts, speech, actions, etc. (we can interfere with this by not accepting all things from the Lord by not walking in the Spirit and walking in our own will when it doesn't agree with the will of God)
The outer court, our physical body on the outside what other people see, actions.
This is how I put these together.
nashama - spirit
ruach - soul
nefesh - body

I read this analogy on a Jewish site. The topic, the breath of God given in Genesis. I don't say all Jews believe this, that I don't know, or even which ones do teach this. I also kept in mind that they do not believe that the NT is scripture, so they don't believe that all believers are indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

The analogy is that of a glassblower when he forms the vessel he blows into it. So God's breath in this case. The breath leaves His lips the nashama and moves like the wind ruach and comes to rest nefesh in the vessel. The nashama is the closest to God the source, the ruach is the connection between the source and the man.
I have also read that some believe the nefesh to be the physical form of anything and the kind of ruach God breathes into it depends on the kind of vessel.
(This makes sense to me because man and all animals have different intelligence and ability to reason, emotions, etc.)

 

[Butch5]

In an earlier post I said that when the Scriptures speak of man's spirit or the spirit in man, they are speaking of possession of the breath/spirit of God. In other words, when the Scriptures say man's spirit they are referring to God's spirit/breath that is in man. I'd like to present an example of this type of language in the Scriptures. Revelation says,

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. (Rev 11:4-7 KJV)

John says that the beast ascends out of the bottomless pit, this is obviously a demonic spirit. However, Daniel also address the beast.

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. (Dan 7:7-11 KJV)

In Revelation the beast is a Demonic entity, yet in Daniel he is a man. I think we can conclude that it is a man possessed by a demonic spirit. Notice what Daniel says, speaking of the beast he says, "HIS" body was destroyed and given to the burning flame. So, even though the beast is a demonic entity, the body which is obviously a man's is said to be the beast's body. Daniel refers to the body as, his body, the beast's. Likewise other Scripture refers to God's breath/spirit in man as his, the man's spirit. It's the way we show possession. Obviously if the beast is a demonic spirit that is inhabiting a man the body doesn't belong to the beast but because he is possessing it it is said to be his, likewise with God's breath/spirit in a man.

 

[agua.]

I consider at our spirit is the place where the Holy Spirit dwells in us. communing with God, teaching of the Holy Spirit, pray in the spirit, worship in the spirit......
The inner court being like our soul, mind, will, emotions, pray with understanding, worship with understanding, speech, control of what our body does in actions, behaviors...
But I also believe that everything comes through to the soul. In other words the spirit does not control the actions of the body but the inspiration of the Holy Spirit flows to the soul and the soul controls thoughts, speech, actions, etc. (we can interfere with this by not accepting all things from the Lord by not walking in the Spirit and walking in our own will when it doesn't agree with the will of God)
The outer court, our physical body on the outside what other people see, actions.
This is how I put these together.
nashama - spirit
ruach - soul
nefesh - body

I read this analogy on a Jewish site. The topic, the breath of God given in Genesis. I don't say all Jews believe this, that I don't know, or even which ones do teach this. I also kept in mind that they do not believe that the NT is scripture, so they don't believe that all believers are indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

The analogy is that of a glassblower when he forms the vessel he blows into it. So God's breath in this case. The breath leaves His lips the nashama and moves like the wind ruach and comes to rest nefesh in the vessel. The nashama is the closest to God the source, the ruach is the connection between the source and the man.
I have also read that some believe the nefesh to be the physical form of anything and the kind of ruach God breathes into it depends on the kind of vessel.
(This makes sense to me because man and all animals have different intelligence and ability to reason, emotions, etc.)

Interesting Deb. Nephesh is presented as the living being after the neshâmâh has been given thoungh. Maybe from the Jewish idea you've presented we can investigate if Ruach is the Holy Spirit and after it delivers us life we have neshâmâh in us .

Gen 1:2 KJV And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit ( Ruach ) of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It makes me wonder if the translation of Gen3:8 should be " Lord God walking in the garden in the Spirit. :D

Gen 3:8 KJV And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool ( Ruach) of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

 

[Butch5]

Interesting Deb. Nephesh is presented as the living being after the neshâmâh has been given thoungh. Maybe from the Jewish idea you've presented we can investigate if Ruach is the Holy Spirit and after it delivers us life we have neshâmâh in us .

Gen 1:2 KJV And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit ( Ruach ) of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It makes me wonder if the translation of Gen3:8 should be " Lord God walking in the garden in the Spirit. :biggrin

Gen 3:8 KJV And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool ( Ruach) of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Hi Agua,

One thing I've found that helped me get a better understanding of the terms was to read Neshamah and Ruach as breath rather than spirit. When I hear the word breath I don't think of a spirit and when I hear the word spirit I don't think of breath. As Christians we have formed ideas in our minds of what a spirit is and I think we apply that to the word when we see it. I have found that by reading it as breath things become more coherent and many passages make better sense.

Also, as I understand it, there is a slight difference in Neshamah and Ruach. I believe that Neshemah is only used of God and man, not animals. Ruach is used for all life. Don't take that as fact without checking as there may have been passages that got missed, but I believe that is the general sense of the terms.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Agua,

One thing I've found that helped me get a better understanding of the terms was to read Neshamah and Ruach as breath rather than spirit. When I hear the word breath I don't think of a spirit and when I hear the word spirit I don't think of breath. As Christians we have formed ideas in our minds of what a spirit is and I think we apply that to the word when we see it. I have found that by reading it as breath things become more coherent and many passages make better sense.

Also, as I understand it, there is a slight difference in Neshamah and Ruach. I believe that Neshemah is only used of God and man, not animals. Ruach is used for all life. Don't take that as fact without checking as there may have been passages that got missed, but I believe that is the general sense of the terms.

I agree with this post.

 

[Butch5]

I agree with this post.

Hi Deb,

I think that is one of the things we have difficulty with when trying to look at things objectively. Many times we don't even realize were bringing things to the text.

 

[agua.]

Hi Agua,

One thing I've found that helped me get a better understanding of the terms was to read Neshamah and Ruach as breath rather than spirit. When I hear the word breath I don't think of a spirit and when I hear the word spirit I don't think of breath. As Christians we have formed ideas in our minds of what a spirit is and I think we apply that to the word when we see it. I have found that by reading it as breath things become more coherent and many passages make better sense.

Also, as I understand it, there is a slight difference in Neshamah and Ruach. I believe that Neshemah is only used of God and man, not animals. Ruach is used for all life. Don't take that as fact without checking as there may have been passages that got missed, but I believe that is the general sense of the terms.

Gen 7:21-22 KJV And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: (22) All in whose nostrils was the breath of life ( Neshamah Ruach ), of all that was in the dry land, died.

Ok Butch sorry if these questions are repetitive but it takes some rote for me sometimes. So in Gen 7 here we see that all life died but the reference to " All in whose nostrils was the breath of life ( Neshamah Ruach ) " refers only to humans right ? If that's the case the sentence structure is bad and should maybe read -
.
"And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man (22) in all whose nostrils was the breath of life ( Neshamah Ruach ). Of all that was in the dry land, died.