Born Again Of The Holy Spirit

[chessman]

your post is a non-sequitur.

Actually, in a discussion about natural birth and spiritual birth, my point of fact is spot on with the Text.

You said: “Isn't it illogical to presume someone hasn't already been born ("natural birth")?”

I simply pointed out that angels haven’t been born (natural birth). No conclusion was drawn from it, one way or the other, for it to be non-sequitur.

Do you think angels have been naturally born (born of flesh)?

 

[Walpole]

Actually, in a discussion about natural birth and spiritual birth, my point of fact is spot on with the Text.

You said: “Isn't it illogical to presume someone hasn't already been born ("natural birth")?”

I simply pointed out that angels haven’t been born (natural birth). No conclusion was drawn from it, one way or the other, for it to be non-sequitur.

Do you think angels have been naturally born (born of flesh)?

The necessity of angels to be born again is a self-refuting proposition given your previously stated objection (which is correct) that angels aren't born to begin with. Ergo, unless you have a verse whereby Jesus instructs angels to be born again, his instruction on becoming born again cannot be applicable to angels and thus your post is a non-sequitur.

 

[chessman]

unless you have a verse whereby Jesus instructs angels to be born again, his instruction on becoming born again cannot be applicable to angels and thus your post is a non-sequitur.

Again, I made no conclusion from the point (which you evidently agree with) in the post, thus my post cannot (by very definition) be a non-sequitur.

The necessity of angels to be born again is self-refuting given your previously stated objection (which is correct) that angels aren't born to begin with.

So, since angels aren’t “born to begin with” on your view, are angels able to enter into the kingdom of God given the truth statement below:

Jesus responded, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.​

John 3:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:5&version=DLNT

 

[Jim Parker]

Jesus responded, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.

Was Jesus talking to Angels?
NO. Jesus was talking to a human being.

Was Jesus talking ABOUT angels?
NO. He was talking about human beings.

 

[JLB]

Isn't it illogical to presume someone hasn't already been born ("natural birth")?

That's like saying if you want eternal life, you must first have a temporal life. (The former presupposes the latter.)

Help me understand your logic.

My “logic” suggests that for a person to be born again, they first must be born.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6


Natural birth precedes spiritual birth.


However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:46



JLB

 

[JLB]

Was Jesus talking to Angels?
NO. Jesus was talking to a human being.

Was Jesus talking ABOUT angels?
NO. He was talking about human beings.

If a fallen angel hears the Gospel and believes can he be born again?


JLB

 

[chessman]

Was Jesus talking ABOUT angels?
NO.

Believe it or NOT, Jesus was talking ABOUT both earthly things and heavenly things.

If I tell you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?​

John 3:12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:12&version=LEB

​

What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

John 3:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:6&version=LEB

Believe it or NOT, Jesus was talking ABOUT what is born of flesh AND what is born of Spirit.

 

[stovebolts]

That being said I have personally witnessed people truly repenting of their poor relationship with God and going the opposite way of what they once did. They do seem to change and sometimes drastically. I understand that this is what people refer to as being "born again" but to me, it seems more of them having firmly made a choice and never looking back. .

That would be my story. At 12 I ran away and lived on the streets doing what I had to do to survive which put me in Juvenile, then institutions. At 17 I was living on the streets of Hollywood peddling dope and whatever else to make a buck for a room and a meal a day. I spent many nights on the street and many day hungry. One does what he needs to do to survive.

Currently, I have a brother in Prison, another on Parole and another dead from choice of lifestyle.

What makes me different? Why did my life come out so radically different than theirs? ( I have a really, really good job with the best wife and an abundance of material items). I can only give God the credit and my testimony bears witness to Gods grace, as well as His love.

Does this mean I'm born from above? Perhaps, but it is not mine to boast, but rather its Gods to share and I'm thankful for his presence in my life.

 

[Tessa]

That would be my story. At 12 I ran away and lived on the streets doing what I had to do to survive which put me in Juvenile, then institutions. At 17 I was living on the streets of Hollywood peddling dope and whatever else to make a buck for a room and a meal a day. I spent many nights on the street and many day hungry. One does what he needs to do to survive.

Currently, I have a brother in Prison, another on Parole and another dead from choice of lifestyle.

What makes me different? Why did my life come out so radically different than theirs? ( I have a really, really good job with the best wife and an abundance of material items). I can only give God the credit and my testimony bears witness to Gods grace, as well as His love.

Does this mean I'm born from above? Perhaps, but it is not mine to boast, but rather its Gods to share and I'm thankful for his presence in my life.

I don't think it necessary to understand born again -v- born from above. It can cause great confusion to some.

But your testimony causes no-one confusion. You have been led mightily by the Holy Spirit, and your amazing testimony will lead many to the Lord. You are greatly blessed.

 

[Walpole]

Again, I made no conclusion from the point (which you evidently agree with) in the post, thus my post cannot (by very definition) be a non-sequitur.

I scrolled back through the thread and nowhere was the necessity of angels to be born again discussed. Your introduction of angels needing to be born again does not align with any previous discussion in the thread and is thus a non-sequitur.

So, since angels aren’t “born to begin with” on your view, are angels able to enter into the kingdom of God given the truth statement below:

Jesus responded, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.​

John 3:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:5&version=DLNT

Angels are already in the kingdom of God. Recall the title "angel" is not their genus / what they are, but rather what they do. (Messengers)

Jesus is not addressing angels in John 3:5, per your own previous admission. (Angels are not born.)

 

[Walpole]

My “logic” suggests that for a person to be born again, they first must be born.

I'm with you here, as a second birth presupposes a first birth.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

Natural birth precedes spiritual birth.

However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:46

JLB

Given that a first birth is an obvious presupposition (which you acknowledge), the two things that Jesus said are needed to enter the Kingdom of God - water and the Spirit - must therefore be associated exclusively with this second birth.

 

[stovebolts]

I don't think it necessary to understand born again -v- born from above. It can cause great confusion to some.
.

For some reason, I tend to agree with you and would add this.

Nicodemus was a good man, and the scriptures bear witness to this. I find it interesting that Nicodemus was considered what we now call a Rabbi and he was having this theological conversation with Jesus, also considered a Rabbi at that time.

What I find interesting is this.... John 3: 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

It seems to me that to understand spiritual things, one should probably have a Godly view of the earthly things, aka the Kingdom of God.

I believe my testimony, as with many others attest to Gods Kingdom and if folks can see what God is able to do in our lives, they have an opportunity for a spiritual rebirth of their own.

P.S. Jesus performed many miracles so that people would see, and believe. Today, they can look into our lives and see, as to believe that God is still active and transforming / saving lives.

 

[Tessa]

For some reason, I tend to agree with you and would add this.

Nicodemus was a good man, and the scriptures bear witness to this. I find it interesting that Nicodemus was considered what we now call a Rabbi and he was having this theological conversation with Jesus, also considered a Rabbi at that time.

What I find interesting is this.... John 3: 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

It seems to me that to understand spiritual things, one should probably have a Godly view of the earthly things, aka the Kingdom of God.

I believe my testimony, as with many others attest to Gods Kingdom and if folks can see what God is able to do in our lives, they have an opportunity for a spiritual rebirth of their own.

P.S. Jesus performed many miracles so that people would see, and believe. Today, they can look into our lives and see, as to believe that God is still active and transforming / saving lives.

Totally agree with this really good post !

 

[chessman]

I scrolled back through the thread and nowhere was the necessity of angels to be born again discussed. Your introduction of angels needing to be born again does not align with any previous discussion in the thread and is thus a non-sequitur.

From the definition of the term:

In Latin, non sequitur means "it does not follow." The phrase was borrowed into English in the 1500s by people who made a formal study of logic. For them it meant a conclusion that does not follow from the statements that lead to it.​

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/non sequitur​

​

​

I made no conclusion statement, therefore my statement is not non-sequitur. (Third and last time I’ll point this out to you)

Jesus is not addressing angels in John 3:5,

I didn’t say He was addressing angels. However, as pointed out previously He most certainly was talking to Nicodemus about spiritual, “heavenly things”, throughout the discussion:

Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You all must be born _____’— the wind [(https://biblehub.com/greek/pneuma_4151.htm). blows where it wants, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know from where it comes, and where it is going. So is everyone having been born of the Spirit”. ... If I told you people earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things [https://biblehub.com/greek/2032.htm]?​

John 3:7-8,12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:7-8,12&version=DLNT

The word translated “Heavenly things” refers to angels over a dozen times in the NT. Look it up. And the word for “wind” in v 7 is literally the same word translated spirit.

 

[JLB]

I'm with you here, as a second birth presupposes a first birth.

 

[JLB]

Given that a first birth is an obvious presupposition (which you acknowledge), the two things that Jesus said are needed to enter the Kingdom of God - water and the Spirit - must therefore be associated exclusively with this second birth.

No sir.

Water is natural birth.

Spirit is spiritual birth.



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

What makes me different? Why did my life come out so radically different than theirs? ( I have a really, really good job with the best wife and an abundance of material items). I can only give God the credit and my testimony bears witness to Gods grace, as well as His love.

Now I am having those same questions myself. AFAIK I ain't exactly worth the expenditures in time, materials, hassles, and talents...
And why me? Especially when looking at where I came from, my siblings, and that's not even including all the atrocities I've committed.

Of course now that I'm one of the FEW...I'm grateful and reciprocate that sentiment but there's no way I'm thinking that I'll ever be worth the extra expense of including me.

 

[for_his_glory]

Angels (spirit beings) haven’t been born.

Exactly, as they were created by God just as humans are created by God, but completely different beings already being spiritual and have no need to be Spiritually born again as they are already a part of the kingdom of God in the third heaven.

Angels are essentially “ministering spirits,” (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies like humans. Jesus declared that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:37-39).

The Bible classifies some angels as “elect” (1 Timothy 5:21) or “holy” (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38). All angels were created to be holy, enjoying the presence of God (Matthew 18:10) and the beauty of heaven (Mark 13:32).

Angels have no gender (Matthew 22:30) and are innumerable (Hebrews 12:22). They are incarnate in human form at times (Genesis 18:2-8) for the purpose of ministry. Angels also express emotions (Luke 15:10), are wise (2 Samuel 14:20) and powerful (Psalms 103:20).

 

[chessman]

All angels were created to be holy, enjoying the presence of God (Matthew 18:10) and the beauty of heaven (Mark 13:32).

So you would agree that an angel is a heavenly thing (John 3:12) created by God as spiritual beings (John 3:8).

 

[JLB]

and have no need to be Spiritually born again as they are already a part of the kingdom of God in the third heaven.

IOW

Angels are already sons of God.

JLB