Born Again?

[JLB]

did he ? it appeasers he had doubt But Jesus is till telling him to be saved / to enter the kingdom of heaven we must be born above again

So you disagree with John that the exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus is not about salvation.


If this is true, then you and I agree, being born again is about salvation.




JLB

 

[ezra]

So you disagree with John that the exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus is not about salvation.


If this is true, then you and I agree, being born again is about salvation.




JLB

i have stated from the beginning its about salvation the conversation recorder in scripture shows that. Nicodemus asked a few questions Jesus answered from A-Z he used description and gave straight forward answers left no stone upturned

 

[WIP]

I did a little search using BibleGateway as a source to see how different translations rendered John 3:3. This is a listing of all English translations found on BibleGateway's website and here is what I found.

In most cases they also included footnotes, one way or another, to indicate that the other renditions are also acceptable. It would seem that "born again" in my search was by far the more predominant rendition but what it really indicates is a difference of opinion regarding the true translation from the ancient texts. It would seem the argument in this thread has been going on for as long as the ancient texts have been translated. This makes perfect sense since it is rare to be able to translate specific meanings from one language to another, especially when one is translating across millennia of time as well.

Born again - KJ21, AMP, AMPC, BRG, CSB, DLNT, DRA, ERV, ESV, ESVUK, EXB, GNV, GNT, HCSB, ICB, PHILIPS, KJV, AKJV, MEV, MOUNCE, NKJV, TLB, NASB, NCV, NIRV, NIV, NIVUK, NLT, NLV, WE, WYC

Born anew – ASV, CEB, DARBY, NMB, OJB, RSV, RSVCE, WEB

Born from above – CEV, ISV, EHV, GW, ISV, LEB, MSG, NET, NOG, NABRE, NRSV, NRSVA, NRSVACE, NRSVCE, NTE, TLV, YLT

Born again from above - CJB, JUB

Experience a rebirth - TPT

Experience birth for a second time - VOICE

 

[dianegcook]

The "many are called but few are chosen" was a thing about leadership roles that being one of Jesus' Apostles would mean. Context is King.

Because in Peter's letters (with some translation other than the ones JLB keeps using) he refers to all Believers as Born From Above.

Nicodemus' role wasn't a huge role...but it was important. He was a member of the Sanhidrin.... the ruling council.

I know it means born from above.
Believers and nonbelievers are born from above imho.
They come through the womb of a woman.
Satan and his angels will not be born of woman.

As you say there are some truth to certain doctrines.
I believe we all existed before this earth age. Spiritually.
When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy.
Then the rebellion, that drew 1/3 .

Some still waiting to be born.

But, as stated, flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit.

Still there are some that are called and a few that are chosen.

 

[JLB]

I did a little search using BibleGateway as a source to see how different translations rendered John 3:3. This is a listing of all English translations found on BibleGateway's website and here is what I found.

In most cases they also included footnotes, one way or another, to indicate that the other renditions are also acceptable. It would seem that "born again" in my search was by far the more predominant rendition but what it really indicates is a difference of opinion regarding the true translation from the ancient texts. It would seem the argument in this thread has been going on for as long as the ancient texts have been translated. This makes perfect sense since it is rare to be able to translate specific meanings from one language to another, especially when one is translating across millennia of time as well.

Born again - KJ21, AMP, AMPC, BRG, CSB, DLNT, DRA, ERV, ESV, ESVUK, EXB, GNV, GNT, HCSB, ICB, PHILIPS, KJV, AKJV, MEV, MOUNCE, NKJV, TLB, NASB, NCV, NIRV, NIV, NIVUK, NLT, NLV, WE, WYC

Born anew – ASV, CEB, DARBY, NMB, OJB, RSV, RSVCE, WEB

Born from above – CEV, ISV, EHV, GW, ISV, LEB, MSG, NET, NOG, NABRE, NRSV, NRSVA, NRSVACE, NRSVCE, NTE, TLV, YLT

Born again from above - CJB, JUB

Experience a rebirth - TPT

Experience birth for a second time - VOICE

My contention is not so much about born again vs born from above.


That’s easily remedied by simply observing the response from Nicodemus...

Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”


Obviously Jesus said and meant born again.


Jesus also said...that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


So there is no doubt in my mind.


Nevertheless that’s not my point.

1. My point is it’s about salvation.
2. It’s not about being a Jewish hero whose birth was foretold.

 

[JLB]

Satan and his angels will not be born of woman.

Amen.

 

[stovebolts]

He believes Jesus is from God.


Muslims believes Jesus is a prophet sent from God.


Believing Jesus is from God, certainly is not the Gospel.


Believe of course carries the meaning of obey.


A person must obey the Gospel to be born again.


Repent is what is to obeyed.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we obey.



Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23





JLB

When we look at the life of Nicodemus, there is every indication that he both believed, confessed and obeyed the gospel.

 

[JLB]

When we look at the life of Nicodemus, there is every indication that he both believed, confessed and obeyed the gospel.

Maybe, Maybe not.


Do you agree that born again is about salvation?



JLB

 

[JLB]

When we look at the life of Nicodemus, there is every indication that he both believed, confessed and obeyed the gospel.

Here is a conversation between Jews who believed in Jesus and Jesus Himself.

Again Jews who believed in Jesus.


Key Passages:

• Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him.

• You are of your father the devil

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s
“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:31-44


Before we assume to much about Nicodemus, please consider this conversation.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I did a little search using BibleGateway as a source to see how different translations rendered John 3:3. This is a listing of all English translations found on BibleGateway's website and here is what I found.

In most cases they also included footnotes, one way or another, to indicate that the other renditions are also acceptable. It would seem that "born again" in my search was by far the more predominant rendition but what it really indicates is a difference of opinion regarding the true translation from the ancient texts. It would seem the argument in this thread has been going on for as long as the ancient texts have been translated. This makes perfect sense since it is rare to be able to translate specific meanings from one language to another, especially when one is translating across millennia of time as well.

Born again - KJ21, AMP, AMPC, BRG, CSB, DLNT, DRA, ERV, ESV, ESVUK, EXB, GNV, GNT, HCSB, ICB, PHILIPS, KJV, AKJV, MEV, MOUNCE, NKJV, TLB, NASB, NCV, NIRV, NIV, NIVUK, NLT, NLV, WE, WYC

Born anew – ASV, CEB, DARBY, NMB, OJB, RSV, RSVCE, WEB

Born from above – CEV, ISV, EHV, GW, ISV, LEB, MSG, NET, NOG, NABRE, NRSV, NRSVA, NRSVACE, NRSVCE, NTE, TLV, YLT

Born again from above - CJB, JUB

Experience a rebirth - TPT

Experience birth for a second time - VOICE

I keep hearing this thing about how difficult it is to translate from one language to another.

I happen to know all about this.....and I agree.
HOWEVER, shakespeare has been translated to other languages....IT COULD BE DONE.

Those that translated the bible did it properly...
This is not the problem....
The problem is that the original texts are no longer in existence.

What JohnDB is saying has nothing to do with what a particular translation says....It's a cultural understanding that is not explained in the bible.

How do we know what baptism is?
It doesn't really explain in the bible all the aspects of it or the difference between water baptism and spiritual baptism (I mean Holy Spirit),,,we know this because we've been taught it from other sources.

Same thing.

But, yes, one must be born again also as how we understand it....Because we hone in on a particular meaning should not cause any problem...we still need to be born from above in the way we understand it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is a conversation between Jews who believed in Jesus and Jesus Himself.

Again Jews who believed in Jesus.


Key Passages:

• Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him.

• You are of your father the devil

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s
“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:31-44


Before we assume to much about Nicodemus, please consider this conversation.




JLB

What are you saying?
That Nicodemus wasn't aware of Jesus' "position"?

 

[stovebolts]

Here is a conversation between Jews who believed in Jesus and Jesus Himself.

Again Jews who believed in Jesus.


Key Passages:

• Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him.

• You are of your father the devil

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s
“I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:31-44


Before we assume to much about Nicodemus, please consider this conversation.




JLB

Jesus said those words to a specific people at a specific time for a specific reason.

It's not fair to think Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus.

If we want to use those passages for every Jew, then all of the Apostles and even Joseph and Mary would be included in that blanket statement.

That's a very dangerous position to take.

 

[Butch5]

Being born again refers to being born of the Spirit.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Natural birth. = That which is born of the flesh is flesh


Spiritual birth = and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.




JLB

A lot of people believe that but it's not the case. Look up the Granville Sharp rule. The birth spoken of in "born again" is a two part process, water and spirit. It's not two separate births, one physical and one spiritual. This is also born out in reading the writings of the early Christians.

Tertullian, On Baptism, Chapter 12

Chapter 12.—Of the Necessity of Baptism to Salvation.

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life” ),

Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

I didn't post the whole chapter but it can be found here

 

[WIP]

I keep hearing this thing about how difficult it is to translate from one language to another.

I happen to know all about this.....and I agree.
HOWEVER, shakespeare has been translated to other languages....IT COULD BE DONE.

Those that translated the bible did it properly...
This is not the problem....
The problem is that the original texts are no longer in existence.

What JohnDB is saying has nothing to do with what a particular translation says....It's a cultural understanding that is not explained in the bible.

How do we know what baptism is?
It doesn't really explain in the bible all the aspects of it or the difference between water baptism and spiritual baptism (I mean Holy Spirit),,,we know this because we've been taught it from other sources.

Same thing.

But, yes, one must be born again also as how we understand it....Because we hone in on a particular meaning should not cause any problem...we still need to be born from above in the way we understand it.

In a way you made my point. Consider baptism. All we have to do is start a thread titled, "What is Baptism" and we would have quite a long discussion and debate about it.

Likewise, I don't think we really know what Jesus meant in regard to this thread and I believe this is what this discussion is trying to bring to clarity.

 

[GodsGrace]

In a way you made my point. Consider baptism. All we have to do is start a thread titled, "What is Baptism" and we would have quite a long discussion and debate about it.

Likewise, I don't think we really know what Jesus meant in regard to this thread and I believe this is what this discussion is trying to bring to clarity.

JohnDB s most probably right...why would he post something like this unless he was sure?

Ditto for baptism....why weren't they VERY CLEAR about what it's all about?

Because they thought things would just go on and on and get passed from one generation to the next.

When I'm not sure about something, I go to the Early Church Fathers. I've been told they weren't inspired...and that it's not scriptural, and other stuff.

THEY are the ones that put the N.T. together.
They are the ones that were taught by the Apostles.
Who could know better what Jesus taught and what the Apostles taught?

Maybe studying some history would do as much good as studying scripture...Jewish kids that are orthodox know their bible inside out....I feel like we don't. Not in that way, anyway.

 

[GodsGrace]

I couldn’t agree more.


Once we are born again, we are now ready to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.



JLB

I believe a lot of ideas in the N.T. are misunderstood by either one side or the other. I'm counting on God's mercy.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's not fair to negatively tarnish John with Calvinism just because you heard him say something similar to Calvinism.

It's about discernment. Calvin wasn't wrong on all of his theology. So if there is truth that parallels Calvin, we embrace that truth as truth and we don't let Calvin stake claim to Gods truth.

Calvin has some of the best commentary...
He had a mind like the old theologians....

It's too bad he misunderstood about election. I sometimes think that church doesn't even believe it anymore,,,,but they just can't up and change. My own thought.

 

[stovebolts]

In a way you made my point. Consider baptism. All we have to do is start a thread titled, "What is Baptism" and we would have quite a long discussion and debate about it.

Likewise, I don't think we really know what Jesus meant in regard to this thread and I believe this is what this discussion is trying to bring to clarity.

I actually want to start a thread in the Bible Study forum to discuss the roots of baptism in the OT, but my reservations are folk would only dwell on weather or not it is necessary for salvation.

I honestly get sick of everything being watered down to its either a salvation issue or not with pages of the same old...and the beauty and nuances of baptism never get to be explored

 

[JohnDB]

A lot of people believe that but it's not the case. Look up the Granville Sharp rule. The birth spoken of in "born again" is a two part process, water and spirit. It's not two separate births, one physical and one spiritual. This is also born out in reading the writings of the early Christians.

Tertullian, On Baptism, Chapter 12

Chapter 12.—Of the Necessity of Baptism to Salvation.

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life” ),

Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

I didn't post the whole chapter but it can be found here

Some of the things he says about baptism really give me pause...and many of his quotes from scriptures are way off too.
Just saying.

 

[stovebolts]

Calvin has some of the best commentary...
He had a mind like the old theologians....

It's too bad he misunderstood about election. I sometimes think that church doesn't even believe it anymore,,,,but they just can't up and change. My own thought.

We have become a society that lacks discernment and the baby gets thrown out with the dirty bathwater.... I've been thinking about this lately... I feel a blog entry coming (if i can find the time....drywall this weekend).