Born Again?

[ezra]

No it's not. The idea of election was well before Calvin's time. You need to stop associating Calvinism with every instance of election.

hmmm i beg your pardon i never associated calvinism with every instance of election. but i did state facts . i think i also asked john to clarify

 

[stovebolts]

hmmm i beg your pardon i never associated calvinism with every instance of election. but i did state facts . i think i also asked john to clarify

It's not fair to negatively tarnish John with Calvinism just because you heard him say something similar to Calvinism.

It's about discernment. Calvin wasn't wrong on all of his theology. So if there is truth that parallels Calvin, we embrace that truth as truth and we don't let Calvin stake claim to Gods truth.

 

[ezra]

It's not fair to negatively tarnish John with Calvinism just because you heard him say something similar to Calvinism.

It's about discernment. Calvin wasn't wrong on all of his theology. So if there is truth that parallels Calvin, we embrace that truth as truth and we don't let Calvin stake claim to Gods truth.

LOOK i have NOT tarnish him with nothing in fact another member mentioned it .i agreed .. let HIM answer for himself.. i realize you 2 are buddies.. its his post he can clarify.. just because he says through his study born again is error . i aint jumping on the wagon. born again is about salvation it is the Holy spirit that generates the new life.
as i stated in a few post back feelings are coming out. just like all the osas threads . yours is showing . i want to examine every aspect of his post left to right top to bottom

 

[JohnDB]

What John is trying to say, some folks were destined for certain things, these are chosen, for example,
Jeremiah, Judas, the 144000, the remnant, Vigin Mary, a lot of others, even including the man with the ass Jesus rode.
Many are called but few are chosen.

The "many are called but few are chosen" was a thing about leadership roles that being one of Jesus' Apostles would mean. Context is King.

Because in Peter's letters (with some translation other than the ones JLB keeps using) he refers to all Believers as Born From Above.

Nicodemus' role wasn't a huge role...but it was important. He was a member of the Sanhidrin.... the ruling council.

 

[JohnDB]

LOOK i have NOT tarnish him with nothing in fact another member mentioned it .i agreed .. let HIM answer for himself.. i realize you 2 are buddies.. its his post he can clarify.. just because he says through his study born again is error . i aint jumping on the wagon. born again is about salvation it is the Holy spirit that generates the new life.
as i stated in a few post back feelings are coming out. just like all the osas threads . yours is showing . i want to examine every aspect of his post left to right top to bottom

To claim that God knows us before we were born is not Calvinism...it's Psalms from David. To guide our path through life also is Psalms...and Isaiah.

The Potter and Clay metaphor comes from the Old Testament...might be something to look up. Because it has a direct relationship with Called and Chosen.

 

[stovebolts]

so we have to belong to a group ahead of time? that is Calvinism

Jesus HAD to belong to the tribe of Judah... That's not Calvinism.

Jesus was for told by Moses. Sampson was for told, so was John the Baptist. Election is a Jewish theme, not a Calvinistic theme.

 

[ezra]

To claim that God knows us before we were born is not Calvinism

i never claimed that God is all knowing knows who will be saved who will not. calvinism claims God has those selected destine to hell ,,but this is not what i asked

 

[ezra]

Jesus HAD to belong to the tribe of Judah... That's not Calvinism.

Jesus was for told by Moses. Sampson was for told, so was John the Baptist. Election is a Jewish theme, not a Calvinistic theme.

the dead horse is tired of getting beat on . the mule is still looking at the new gate

 

[JLB]

Born again is used today and I'm not going to change it...
however, one of the problems with belief nowadays is this idea of being born again...as if that were enough.

I couldn’t agree more.


Once we are born again, we are now ready to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.



JLB

 

[ezra]

Once we are born again, we are now ready to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

what and when do you consider the spiritual baptism ? i would be interested to read

 

[JLB]

Let's take a step back.
Most versions say born again. However, most versions also have a footnote that says born from above.

Born again, born from above, born of the Spirit, born of God, regeneration all refer to the same thing.


Spiritual birth.



What I get behind is witnessing to people they have to be born of the law of the Torah, or that “born from above” refers to a member of a group of Israeli hero’s that had their births foretold.



Furthermore, that this phrase has nothing to do with salvation.



That’s my point.




JLB

 

[JLB]

what and when do you consider the spiritual baptism ? i would be interested to read

The baptism with the Holy Spirit, like baptism in water comes after a person believes, or receives the Gospel message and is saved; born again, regenerated.


And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. Acts 8:11-13


At this point the region of Samaria believed the Gospel message and was baptized by Phillip with water baptism.


They had not yet received the Holy Spirit.

• they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

• For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.

• They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

• Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19




JLB

 

[JLB]

It's not fair to negatively tarnish John with Calvinism just because you heard him say something similar to Calvinism.

It's about discernment. Calvin wasn't wrong on all of his theology. So if there is truth that parallels Calvin, we embrace that truth as truth and we don't let Calvin stake claim to Gods truth.

Fair enough.

 

[ezra]

Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

if ya dont mind how do you see this as today..i see us getting the spirit the moment of the new birth .certainly we have to learn when the Holy Spirit speaks to us/leading us

 

[JLB]

OK, 14 pages of reiterating over and over I have nothing more to add. Some will get it JohnDB and some won't.

I will leave with this. We are all born from above as it is the very breath/spirit of God that made us a living soul, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. We were all born with a nature to sin and all have sinned and fallen short after we came from our mothers womb, Psalms 51:5. Because of God's grace, Ephesians 2:8, we can all be made new again in our inner man/parts (spirit) by the Spiritual rebirth that comes by the Spirit of God from above.

God bless all of you and have a blessed day.

I agree.


What I don’t agree with is witnessing to people and instead of saying you must be born again, you are to say

You must be a member of a group of Israeli hero’s that had their births foretold.



That’s my only contention.



JLB

 

[JLB]

What John is trying to say, some folks were destined for certain things, these are chosen, for example,
Jeremiah, Judas, the 144000, the remnant, Vigin Mary, a lot of others, even including the man with the ass Jesus rode.
Many are called but few are chosen.

What John plainly said to me when I asked him to clarify, he said this is what Jesus said to Nicodemus... you must be a member of a group of Israeli hero’s that had their births foretold.


Not you must be born again, because it’s wrong to say that.



Because, John says it’s not about salvation.




JLB

 

[JLB]

born again is about salvation it is the Holy spirit that generates the new life.

 

[stovebolts]

What John plainly said to me when I asked him to clarify, he said this is what Jesus said to Nicodemus... you must be a member of a group of Israeli hero’s that had their births foretold.


Not you must be born again, because it’s wrong to say that.



Because, John says it’s not about salvation.




JLB

According to your doctrine, one is saved / born again when one believes.
In John 3, does Nicodemus believe Jesus is from God?

 

[ezra]

does Nicodemus believe Jesus is from God?

did he ? it appeasers he had doubt But Jesus is till telling him to be saved / to enter the kingdom of heaven we must be born above again

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

looks like to me Jesus laid it all out for him ..did he leave a changed man ? scripture does not say if he had a change of heart .. religious folks are the hardest to reach

 

[JLB]

According to your doctrine, one is saved / born again when one believes.
In John 3, does Nicodemus believe Jesus is from God?

He believes Jesus is from God.


Muslims believes Jesus is a prophet sent from God.


Believing Jesus is from God, certainly is not the Gospel.


Believe of course carries the meaning of obey.


A person must obey the Gospel to be born again.


Repent is what is to obeyed.

Confessing Jesus as Lord is how we obey.



Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23





JLB