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Born Again?

JohnDB said:
Well if people would actually read instead of just claiming they read and understood what they really didn't read, it wouldn't take this long. And a whole bunch of non relevant answers to non relevant questions wouldn't be demanded...and we could have been here 10 pages ago.
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I think some of the disagree was over the born of "water" meaning.
 
Randy said:
I think some of the disagree was over the born of "water" meaning.
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Excuse the hyperbole...

I'd of thought that you would recognize one.
Metaphor, simile, allusion, allegory, and hyperbole are just some of the things in scriptures that I thought everyone would be accustomed to.
 
JohnDB said:
Born From Above is a title...kinda like the Avengers is a title for a group.
One of the requirements for being in this group is having your birth prophesied about before you were born.
That's the reason for Nicodemus' rhetorical question.
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You lost me here, John. I have no idea where this is found in Scripture.
 
WIP said:
You lost me here, John. I have no idea where this is found in Scripture.
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I have several long posts where the "what and why" is explained buried in all the non relevant posts. (Some people seem to have to make a minimum of 3-4 in a series.)
But the information is from several sources. Single source is a bad idea.
 
WIP said:
Where does this concept or idea come from?
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Several different places WIP.
The bible should be our authority...
but we can't depend only on the bible if we want to learn a little more about Jesus' time and the O.T. times.

It comes from persons studying the bible and those times as their life's work. It includes history, anthropology, and all that stuff. People study this. Scholars know things we don't know.

John knows a lot about the O.T. He studied it, he studied those times and what people believed and how they lived.

Jesus didn't understand being born again the way we do.
It's become a catch phrase...this is why there are so many problems in churches...why so many denominations...why so many different beliefs.

JohnDB is saying that being born of above means being someone special that was foreseen...he'll correct this if it's wrong.

I've never heard of this either because I didn't study O.T. times and culture. It's interesting.
 
We haven't had a caste based society in a long time.
It's why this concept is difficult for us to grasp. It was a crutch of people from it. It supposedly told you who you were and your place in society. Rome and Western culture destroyed the caste based world.

But suffice it to say that everyone had a category and lineage...a legacy of family members was an all encompassing thought and goal.
Being a member of "Born From Above" would be a huge legacy and honor to a family.
 
JohnDB said:
This story has nothing to do with salvation...it has everything to do with being called and chosen...
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John, help us to understand a little better what you mean.


If Jesus wasn't talking to Nicodemus about salvation or eternal life, then what was Jesus calling him to?


Calling to repentance?



Being born again, is about a new birth, a spiritual birth, being made alive by the Spirit of Christ.


And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,. Ephesians 2:1


If this isnt about slvation then, what is?





JLB
 
this is going out in left field
Born From Above is a title...kinda like the Avengers is a title for a group.
One of the requirements for being in this group is having your birth prophesied about before you were born.
That's the reason for Nicodemus' rhetorical question.
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belong to a group .break this down because at this time ..i am seeing red flags ..and our theories should come from as Calvinist like ti say solo scriptures
 
JLB said:
Truth is found in scripture.

JLB
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What John said is truth.
We can't know everything about that time.

Born again is used today and I'm not going to change it...
however, one of the problems with belief nowadays is this idea of being born again...as if that were enough.

I do agree with what persons take it to mean in the sense that we ARE to be "born again" .

I started a thread on being a part of the vine...In theology.
Maybe this would be a better way of saying what we mean?
I don't know...we're not going to change the language of persons..but it's still good to know history.
 
OK, 14 pages of reiterating over and over I have nothing more to add. Some will get it JohnDB and some won't.

I will leave with this. We are all born from above as it is the very breath/spirit of God that made us a living soul, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. We were all born with a nature to sin and all have sinned and fallen short after we came from our mothers womb, Psalms 51:5. Because of God's grace, Ephesians 2:8, we can all be made new again in our inner man/parts (spirit) by the Spiritual rebirth that comes by the Spirit of God from above.

God bless all of you and have a blessed day.
 
What John is trying to say, some folks were destined for certain things, these are chosen, for example,
Jeremiah, Judas, the 144000, the remnant, Vigin Mary, a lot of others, even including the man with the ass Jesus rode.
Many are called but few are chosen.
 
Let's take a step back.
Most versions say born again. However, most versions also have a footnote that says born from above.
JLB said:
Truth is found in scripture.




JLB
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While I agree, there is truth and then there is the whole truth.

We like to talk about the context within the scriptures. I knew a guy back in college that just for kicks, strung together a multitude of biblical passages that supported our salvation came through Satan. You see, and I know you agree that context is important.

When we read scripture, the context is larger than the written text. If we keep biblical truth isolated to simply the text, then we willfully encourage ignorance of the text. Let me explain.

Scripture says that Jews seek signs and gentiles seek knowledge. This truth shows us that both societies have a cultural lens in which they view the world around them. The book of Matthew was written to Jews within Jerusalem while Luke wrote to both Gentiles and Hellenistic Jews who had a different lens than the audience in Matthew's gospel.

A gentile isn't doing to understand Matthews Gospel like a Jew would because they have different cultural lenses.

Fast forward 2,000 years and our American culture are far removed from Jewish or Greek and Roman culture. As such, if we confine the scripture to our modern day culture, we will read our own bias into the text completely void of what the original audience would have heard.

I touched on this earlier, and it was brought to my attention that my remark was pointed at you and I had violated our TOS. It wasn't directed at you. I was simply trying to explain that understanding the culture is as important as the text. Both parts comprise the whole truth.

My point to you about Hillel isn't about pushing Jewish thought, but rather seeking the whole truth. While you and others want to argue doctrines, I'm searching for the rest of the story.

In short, on the day of judgment, I don't want to ask Nicodemus for forgiveness because I put words into his mouth without first trying to understand how he heard the words of Jesus. Because of Nicodemus was heavily influenced by Hillel, i can get better sense on what he heard instead of imposing my 21st century cultural lense onto him. For me, i think that's fair.
 
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