Born Again?

[for_his_glory]

JohnDB you did give a large amount that is hard to digest. I copied and pasted it into notepad and will try to sort through it all.

 

[JohnDB]

JohnDB you did give a large amount that is hard to digest. I copied and pasted it into notepad and will try to sort through it all.

LOL... this is why my software and computer (where I can completely express myself) were taken away the first time.

In the years I've been here I've stuck to my phone and occasionally a tablet. Where I have to be brief due to typing difficulties.

Now I have kinda revealed a side of myself that has been hidden from everyone. (except Jeff who calls)

Kinda shocking for most people.

 

[Edward]

In John 3:3 we read that we must be "Born again "

Of water and of Spirit.

Let's discuss people's beliefs about this passage and Nicodemus...

And after a bit I'll throw my two cents in...
(My wonderful wife has gotten my software going again and its wonderful)

I'll post corroborating evidence when I explain mine.
But I want to hear what ya'll think about the section of scripture.

Without reading any replies, (so what I'll say may have already been said)...from what I understand, we are saved when we repent and ask forgiveness and for Jesus to come into our life, but being born again, or born of the spirit...is something that comes later in our walk with Him, after a period of time where we...pick up our cross daily and make effort to presence our-self in front of the Lord. We do this in prayer and while reading His word. This is when the Lord is able to, bear witness with our spirit and work on him and teach and grow him. Then one day we have drawn close enough to the Lord, that He draws closer to us...and we get born of the spirit. The scripture says, seek me until you find me...I believe that is not simply saying the sinners prayer.

Sort of how it says that to those who believe He gave the power to become sons of God.

 

[ezra]

we are saved when we repent and ask forgiveness and for Jesus to come into our life, but being born again, or born of the spirit...is something that comes later in our walk with Him, after a period of time where we...pick up our cross daily and make effort to presence our-self in front of the Lord.

no born again is conversion/salvation /born of the spirit and this < we are saved when we repent and ask forgiveness >

 

[JohnDB]

Without reading any replies, (so what I'll say may have already been said)...from what I understand, we are saved when we repent and ask forgiveness and for Jesus to come into our life, but being born again, or born of the spirit...is something that comes later in our walk with Him, after a period of time where we...pick up our cross daily and make effort to presence our-self in front of the Lord. We do this in prayer and while reading His word. This is when the Lord is able to, bear witness with our spirit and work on him and teach and grow him. Then one day we have drawn close enough to the Lord, that He draws closer to us...and we get born of the spirit. The scripture says, seek me until you find me...I believe that is not simply saying the sinners prayer.

Sort of how it says that to those who believe He gave the power to become sons of God.

You need to read my replies.
It's a lot more than what has been commonly said and explains why "reborn is wrong and the alternative reading is correct"

 

[Randy]

Born "again" would be the new birth that is from God through Jesus Christ. Christ in us. We are at that very moment of new birth one with Jesus and belong to Him. For that Spirit is in us by the will of Jesus as no one enters the Kingdom of God except by Him. Born of water is therefore not important for someone who was born into the world and exists to receive the meaning of this new message of life. (new at that time)

"Again"

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God

Born again or Born from above or born of God.

children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

 

[JohnDB]

Born "again" would be the new birth that is from God through Jesus Christ. Christ in us. We are at that very moment of new birth one with Jesus and belong to Him. For that Spirit is in us by the will of Jesus as no one enters the Kingdom of God except by Him. Born of water is therefore not important for someone who was born into the world and exists to receive the meaning of this new message of life. (new at that time)

"Again"

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God

Born again or Born from above or born of God.

children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

And because of the many reasons I listed above "born again " cannot be an accurate rendering of the Greek. But translators have done so anyway and cannot explain why.

The footnote of "born from above" has lacked explanation for years but I have given one here.

 

[Edward]

You need to read my replies.
It's a lot more than what has been commonly said and explains why "reborn is wrong and the alternative reading is correct"

I didn't read any of them, just the first post. I agree with you, but when we are born of the spirit, then we are to keep our self in the presence of the Lord (pray with out ceasing), like peter after he got out of the boat, (well, before he looked away and started sinking.) When we do focus upon the Lord the Holy Spirit comes, and work begins upon our spirit (which the flesh mind can't hear) and bears witness to our spirit.The mysteries of God...and we don't get to know it, lol.

But we can see and feel the changes over time. I can. I have a much different heart than I use to. But the caveat is when our attention and focus goes away from the Lord. We essentially walk away from the Lord at that time. Then He is unable to work on our spirit, sanctifying it. The Lord requires us to, take the initiative and seek Him, draw closer to Him first then He will draw closer to us. But when we lose the awareness of His presence we can not grow, at all.

This is a hard thing to do sometimes. Most of us have to go out into the world most every day. I sort of struggle with working in my trade every day vs my constant awareness of the Lord, and I have been inviting Him to Go with me. (Because if God is with us, then who can be against me (us?) I even prayed about it and He sure enough answered me too, and told me to work my job as if I knew that He wasn't coming yet for another 200 years! In other words, live, business as usual. That is a hard one to digest for me because to concentrate on my work I pretty much have to take my awareness off of Him while I work, and that seems counter-productive to my spiritual drawing closer to Him.

I'm sorry, I'm rambling, lol. Good Morning, Brothers and Sisters! Have a blessed day in the Lord!

 

[Randy]

And because of the many reasons I listed above "born again " cannot be an accurate rendering of the Greek. But translators have done so anyway and cannot explain why.

The footnote of "born from above" has lacked explanation for years but I have given one here.

When one translates between languages sometimes its not by direct words but the meaning is carried over.
I don't know Greek let alone Greek in its ancient forms. I do know Jesus. As the Spirit was with me before it was in me. I have believed in and loved Jesus as far back as my memory goes. (faith) Born of water is irrelevant. The Spirit of God draws people to Jesus and that Spirit speaks what He hears. As in those that listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. The Spirit was with the disciples before it was in them.

Peter knew and believed as He stated that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the living God by the Spirit of God. (Father)

So he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty.


As Jesus has ascended to the right hand of the Father the Spirit of God was sent into the world to lead us into all truth and He does not speak on His own but speaks only what He hears. As Jesus taught.

Does anyone really seek to be born of water? That is no concern to me. No rather we seek Christ Jesus our Lord and the new creation birth.

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

 

[ezra]

And because of the many reasons I listed above "born again " cannot be an accurate rendering of the Greek. But translators have done so anyway and cannot explain why.

The footnote of "born from above" has lacked explanation for years but I have given one here.

i totally disagree born again born from above is the new birth done by the holy spirit..regeneration -changed 2 Corinthians 5:17.. i respect your ability with the software to do Greek and Hebrew . the born of water has been highly debated over the years .imo it means the word. others feel baptism=salvation . i like the song the comptons use to sing i had a birth i cant remember and one i cant forget .

...it seems anymore we completely discount what the bible says and rewrite it ..for years its been preached ye must be born again and folks had a true blue blood bought salvation ..we forget about the words like atonement propitiation -the satisfaction..then we have justification .declare righteous /just as if we never sinned (case closed ) then we have sanctification /Holiness/growth no real disrespect intended..just stating my opinion

 

[stovebolts]

And because of the many reasons I listed above "born again " cannot be an accurate rendering of the Greek. But translators have done so anyway and cannot explain why.

The footnote of "born from above" has lacked an explanation for years but I have given one here.

Be careful John, your stepping on doctrines with canned arguments lol!

Really, what I find refreshing talking to you on the phone is we get to engage in the story without bringing dogma and doctrine into it. I believe stories are powerful and when we enter into the conversation that scripture reveals, it can shape a true theology that has the power to transform.

Often, I see many sitting 5 stories above the text and analyzing it by means of deductive reasoning with preconceived lenses formed through doctrinal teachings void of Jewish norms or culture. Point in case, Jesus is well known with soft blue eyes and long, blonde flowing hair. When we do this, we are not experiencing the text the way it was meant to be experienced.

Thanks for bringing the story back through a Jewish lense.

 

[ezra]

I didn't read any of them, just the first post. I agree with you, but when we are born of the spirit, then we are to keep our self in the presence of the Lord (pray with out ceasing), like peter after he got out of the boat, (well, before he looked away and started sinking.) When we do focus upon the Lord the Holy Spirit comes, and work begins upon our spirit (which the flesh mind can't hear) and bears witness to our spirit.The mysteries of God...and we don't get to know it, lol.

But we can see and feel the changes over time. I can. I have a much different heart than I use to. But the caveat is when our attention and focus goes away from the Lord. We essentially walk away from the Lord at that time. Then He is unable to work on our spirit, sanctifying it. The Lord requires us to, take the initiative and seek Him, draw closer to Him first then He will draw closer to us. But when we lose the awareness of His presence we can not grow, at all.

This is a hard thing to do sometimes. Most of us have to go out into the world most every day. I sort of struggle with working in my trade every day vs my constant awareness of the Lord, and I have been inviting Him to Go with me. (Because if God is with us, then who can be against me (us?) I even prayed about it and He sure enough answered me too, and told me to work my job as if I knew that He wasn't coming yet for another 200 years! In other words, live, business as usual. That is a hard one to digest for me because to concentrate on my work I pretty much have to take my awareness off of Him while I work, and that seems counter-productive to my spiritual drawing closer to Him.

I'm sorry, I'm rambling, lol. Good Morning, Brothers and Sisters! Have a blessed day in the Lord!

:amen glad your not the only one who struggles i fight my flesh off everyday. especially when you have to stop what your doing and rest the machine your working on every 5 minuets or at times every blasted cycle .. i appreciate your honesty

 

[JohnDB]

Be careful John, your stepping on doctrines with canned arguments lol!

Really, what I find refreshing talking to you on the phone is we get to engage in the story without bringing dogma and doctrine into it. I believe stories are powerful and when we enter into the conversation that scripture reveals, it can shape a true theology that has the power to transform.

Often, I see many sitting 5 stories above the text and analyzing it by means of deductive reasoning with preconceived lenses formed through doctrinal teachings void of Jewish norms or culture. Point in case, Jesus is well known with soft blue eyes and long, blonde flowing hair. When we do this, we are not experiencing the text the way it was meant to be experienced.

Thanks for bringing the story back through a Jewish lense.

God gave us the Bible for a reason...
A man's heart is the most deceitful.
But the scriptures are truth.
Not as I wish them to be but as they are. Which is why I study them with full hermeneutics of blending art and sciences together.

I can't create a Jesus that I want to follow if I expect to gain heaven. And my heart is forever lying to me. So I study to learn about the God who is instead of the lie my heart will create.

And I recognize that some people will exchange the Biblical truth for deceitful heart statements that they want/feel are true.
Exchanging the truth for a lie.

People make mistakes like "Jesus was a Carpenter" for noble intentions but perpetuating those mistakes is another one.
And God created people like you and I to return to the truth of scriptures and understand the wonderful stories that were told a long time ago.

 

[Randy]

God gave us the Bible for a reason...
A man's heart is the most deceitful.
But the scriptures are truth.
Not as I wish them to be but as they are. Which is why I study them with full hermeneutics of blending art and sciences together.

I can't create a Jesus that I want to follow if I expect to gain heaven. And my heart is forever lying to me. So I study to learn about the God who is instead of the lie my heart will create.

And I recognize that some people will exchange the Biblical truth for deceitful heart statements that they want/feel are true.
Exchanging the truth for a lie.

People make mistakes like "Jesus was a Carpenter" for noble intentions but perpetuating those mistakes is another one.
And God created people like you and I to return to the truth of scriptures and understand the wonderful stories that were told a long time ago.

Nicodemus asked Jesus ""What do you mean?" exclaimed Nicodemus. "How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?"

Jesus explained to him, (born again), flesh gives birth to flesh but Spirit gives birth to Spirit. So born of the Spirit, born of God, and born from above or born anew explains the meaning of born again. Its from God and by Gods will.

As in who God states are His children
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.


I don't perceive a lie or deception in born from above as in being born again. I read the bible to.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is what I believe as being the meaning of the term born from above.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Being born again brings a new Spiritual life to our inner man (spirit) as we have crucified this flesh and all that we need to mortify within it and that which we need to put on so when Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Read Colossians 3:1-25.

The Spiritual rebirth as in being born again or having a fresh beginning with the Lord through repentance is God's free gift of grace through His Son Christ Jesus. Jesus is that lifeline that through Him being our mediator before the Father we are delivered from our past sins.

According to Matthew 24:13 which reads, But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. No one is saved, let me repeat that, no one is saved at the time of refreshing or being Spiritually born again from above, but are saved from eternal damnation "if" we endure all those things Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:4-21. Theses are the trials, temptations and tribulations even now in our day and especially that of the future abomination, Daniel 7, that will cause many to fall away from truth and lead them to desolation, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, as many will fall away and take the mark of the beast, Rev 13.

Unless we students of the original Aramaic or Greek all we have is our English language written in the Bible and the Holy Spirit that teaches us all things God wants us to learn.

 

[for_his_glory]

LOL... this is why my software and computer (where I can completely express myself) were taken away the first time.

In the years I've been here I've stuck to my phone and occasionally a tablet. Where I have to be brief due to typing difficulties.

Now I have kinda revealed a side of myself that has been hidden from everyone. (except Jeff who calls)

Kinda shocking for most people.

I don't want to make this about water baptism so please everyone, let's not go there as that is another topic. This is about what Jesus said in John 3:5 about being born of water and of the Spirit. I do agree with that long, but important post you wrote as I went back and read it. It is about being born from above, which I have always believed that and that comes by the word of God as in His living water/word.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word) that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

Baptism is not mentioned in John 3:5 so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

 

[JohnDB]

I don't want to make this about water baptism so please everyone, let's not go there as that is another topic. This is about what Jesus said in John 3:5 about being born of water and of the Spirit. I do agree with that long, but important post you wrote as I went back and read it. It is about being born from above, which I have always believed that and that comes by the word of God as in His living water/word.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word) that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

Baptism is not mentioned in John 3:5 so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

The Jerusalem Bible is a Catholic Bible. 2

ROFL...but it is a fine translation as most are. I'm just surprised you have one.
All English translation of scriptures are going to be flawed in some fashion... mostly because English doesn't have the parts of speech and grammar rules as other languages do.

Living Water or Living Law... like Jesus is accommodates every possible situation.

The Old Law and Covenant was good but it doesn't have the same power as the New Living Covenant.

I know that "Born Again" has been taught for 5 centuries...since the start of the Reformation. But it is not correct. Good intentions behind it but it isn't the truth.

Good intentions write commentaries and commentaries on commentaries...but those aren't scriptures as Luther found chained up in a library one day.

 

[JohnDB]

Oops...
Forgot...

The letter of the Law kills but the spirit brings life...

 

[ezra]

but the spirit brings life..

it does at that a new life born again the spiritual birth o will continue to advocate being born again luther had a lot of great points and helped open eyes .but he is just a man

 

[JohnDB]

it does at that a new life born again the spiritual birth o will continue to advocate being born again luther had a lot of great points and helped open eyes .but he is just a man

There is nothing said about being born anew or born again here. Only born from above.
Born anew is a term the Jews used when Gentiles converted to Judaism...
But that isn't what either one of them was talking about.
Nicodemus followed the Law and believed in Jesus. He had nothing to repent of.