Born Again?

[ezra]

i have read every thing you posted i just happen to disagree i really dont care born again born from above ..would you say the writer of peter was wrong also . i dont have the tools you do to do a forensic research. i will stand by born again we dont know exactly the words jesus spoke other than what is recorded . men was burnt at the stake for getting bibles to read. .

 

[Randy]

Nicodemus comments were about how he didn't believe in himself. Jesus was saying that what Nicodemus was stating about Jesus (as a saint, as I described earlier, a person who was sent by God) was actually true about Nicodemus. Nicodemus' birth had not been prophesied about before he was born and his life had been ordinary.
So Nicodemus was stating that what Jesus was saying could not possibly be true.

What Nicodemus slowly was catching on to was that Jesus was God himself and that he had just asked to be friends with God. (Because of what Jesus was doing and saying and how he was saying it)
Jesus granted his request.
Nicodemus was now friends with God. The same as Abraham.
That's kinda scary for those, like Nicodemus, who understand what that means.

Whether Nicodemus believed Jesus was God I don't know. What I do read is that Nicodemus believed Jesus was from God. So Jesus's words concerned Him
So when Jesus stated this, "Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again(or born from above)

Nicodemus asked this in regard to himself for he didn't understand the meaning of Jesus's born from above.
“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Then Jesus explained how one is born from above as in born a 2nd time or born again or as some might state born anew.
Born of the Spirit as in Christ in us is how I read this. Those born of God are the children of God as John wrote in his testimony about Jesus.

Born again or born from above explained as in a 2nd time(born again)
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

 

[Randy]

This to me is a better fit than born again.
You must be born anew.
But using born again to me takes nothing away from the testimony and the meaning can be seen in the text as Jesus explained His meaning "born of the Spirit" as John used in describing who God states are His children
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God

 

[JLB]

This to me is a better fit than born again.
You must be born anew.
But using born again to me takes nothing away from the testimony and the meaning can be seen in the text as Jesus explained His meaning "born of the Spirit" as John used in describing who God states are His children
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God

Born of God, Born from above, born again, born of the Spirit, all refer to the new birth.



JLB

 

[Randy]

Born of God, Born from above, born again, born of the Spirit, all refer to the new birth.



JLB

I agree, but born anew rather than born again seems a better fit to such understanding. As in the new creation.

 

[JLB]

I agree, but born anew rather than born again seems a better fit to such understanding. As in the new creation.

Ok.


Some may also find it easier to understand born anew, or
born of God, or born of the Spirit.


I hope we can agree that we are not born anew or born again because we go down into some natural water for baptism.




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I hope we can agree that we are not born anew or born again because we go down into some natural water for baptism.

JLB

Hi JLB,
We understand that Jesus grew up in Jewish culture and Nicodemus was highly educated in Jewish thought which was to live out their spirituality. We see Jesus express this sentiment within the Lord's prayer when he teaches us to pray, "Your will be done, in earth as it is in heaven".

I realize you and I live in a culture radically different than the ancient of days. Also, you and I were not raised, nor are either of us fully aware of the teachings of Hillel to which Nicodemus, Paul, and Jesus were acutely aware of. As such, we enter into this conversation not fully understanding the backdrop to the discussion we are entering into.

Scripture states that Jews seek signs, gentiles seek knowledge. Because we seek different 'facts' than Jews, it is easy to see things the Jews put very little weight in.

From a Jewish mindset, you cannot separate the spiritual from the physical. Both work in harmony to paint a picture. Gentiles look at 'Or' statements such as spiritual or physical. Jews use 'and' statements such as spiritual and physical.

In regard to water baptism, Jews see it as both a spiritual and physical event and as JohnDB has shown, the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus is much broader than a single, modern day doctrine.

I understand you will disagree with this, and it is within the grace God has provided you to do so. I do not seek disagreement with you, but what I do ask is that we give each other enough space to share what we have learned without opposing one another.

 

[Randy]

Ok.


Some may also find it easier to understand born anew, or
born of God, or born of the Spirit.


I hope we can agree that we are not born anew or born again because we go down into some natural water for baptism.




JLB

Jesus gives life as it pleases Him not by set of rules. He has that authority. The criminal on the cross next to him is a example. But that man called Jesus Lord and believed in Jesus's Kingdom. He humbled himself before Jesus and went from impending death to eternal life in that very moment by Jesus's will. Likewise Jesus told His disciples, before Pentecost, that they were already clean because of the word He had spoken to them.
But usually its repent and be baptized and you will be saved. Not just getting dipped. Prayer is offered up to God as well. A pledge of a good conscience to God.

I don't speak against baptizing into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but I would state if you have the Spirit of Christ in you that you have everything you need for you are literally one with Jesus and the Father. You were washed and sanctified by the Spirit of God.

In regard to my own testimony I was baptized as a infant. I perceived the outward presence of the Spirit but not the inward. So I asked Jesus in prayer, as I believed in Him, with great zeal for the gift of the Holy Spirit and like Jacob I wasn't going to let go of Jesus until He blessed me.
It was a short time later after all that prayer that I first felt the presence of the Spirit in me. I then rejoiced. So as I state I believe the Holy Spirit was with me before it was in me. And add it was Jesus who sent it. No one enters the Kingdom of God except by Him.

 

[for_his_glory]

The more I think about "born again" Nicodemus had no understanding as even many today would ask the same question "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

Jesus goes on to tell him "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Paul understood it was not by water baptism (BTW baptism is not mentioned in John 3:5), but by the word of God that we are sanctified, which means set apart and made holy. We being the church of God have been made clean by His word as we are washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Again Paul and also Peter gives us the understanding that being born again/born from above is not by actual water which would be a work of our own righteousness, but regeneration (new Spiritual life) that comes by God's mercy through His spoken word and Spirit (Holy Spirit).

IMO it doesn't matter if we say born again or born from above, but that we understand it is by God's grace through faith,which is Christ Jesus and His finished works on the cross that we are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb and our spirit renewed by the very Spirit of God, (Holy Spirit)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[ezra]

IMO it doesn't matter if we say born again or born from above, but that we understand it is by God's grace through faith,which is Christ Jesus and His finished works on the cross that we are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb and our spirit renewed by the very Spirit of God, (Holy Spirit)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

pretty much so from here anything thing else would be gnat straining right after we all most puked trying to swallow the camel

 

[JohnDB]

Ok look guys,
I have presented facts and evidence.

Not one of you yet have produced anything that refutes anything I have presented.

Well you have presented your thoughts and feelings about the passages...but no facts. No hermeneutics, no anthropological evidence, no history, no grammatical analysis, and no logic has been produced to refute what I have showed.
Nothing but, "I just don't want to believe that".

 

[JLB]

Ok look guys,
I have presented facts and evidence.

Not one of you yet have produced anything that refutes anything I have presented.

Well you have presented your thoughts and feelings about the passages...but no facts. No hermeneutics, no anthropological evidence, no history, no grammatical analysis, and no logic has been produced to refute what I have showed.
Nothing but, "I just don't want to believe that".

What facts and evidence have you produced John.


I for one have not tried to refute what you said.


The main point I made was born of water does not refer to water baptism.


Do you believe a person is born again because they are baptized in natural water?


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


John explains verse 5, in verse 6.


Born of water refers to natural child birth - That which is born of the flesh is flesh



Born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth - that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



That’s really the only point I have made so far.




JLB

 

[JLB]

The more I think about "born again" Nicodemus had no understanding as even many today would ask the same question "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

I agree.


What is alarming, that no one discusses, is the fact that Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand about spiritual birth, to the point that He was shocked that Nicodemus didn’t know.


Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? John 3:10




JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus gives life as it pleases Him not by set of rules. He has that authority. The criminal on the cross next to him is a example. But that man called Jesus Lord and believed in Jesus's Kingdom. He humbled himself before Jesus and went from impending death to eternal life in that very moment by Jesus's will. Likewise Jesus told His disciples, before Pentecost, that they were already clean because of the word He had spoken to them.
But usually its repent and be baptized and you will be saved. Not just getting dipped. Prayer is offered up to God as well. A pledge of a good conscience to God.

I don't speak against baptizing into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit but I would state if you have the Spirit of Christ in you that you have everything you need for you are literally one with Jesus and the Father. You were washed and sanctified by the Spirit of God.

In regard to my own testimony I was baptized as a infant. I perceived the outward presence of the Spirit but not the inward. So I asked Jesus in prayer, as I believed in Him, with great zeal for the gift of the Holy Spirit and like Jacob I wasn't going to let go of Jesus until He blessed me.
It was a short time later after all that prayer that I first felt the presence of the Spirit in me. I then rejoiced. So as I state I believe the Holy Spirit was with me before it was in me. And add it was Jesus who sent it. No one enters the Kingdom of God except by Him.

Thanks for sharing your testimony with us.


Awesome.


You are blessed.



JLB

 

[ezra]

i have said i disagree and i do sounds like your taking it personal .

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB,
We understand that Jesus grew up in Jewish culture and Nicodemus was highly educated in Jewish thought which was to live out their spirituality. We see Jesus express this sentiment within the Lord's prayer when he teaches us to pray, "Your will be done, in earth as it is in heaven".

I realize you and I live in a culture radically different than the ancient of days. Also, you and I were not raised, nor are either of us fully aware of the teachings of Hillel to which Nicodemus, Paul, and Jesus were acutely aware of. As such, we enter into this conversation not fully understanding the backdrop to the discussion we are entering into.

Scripture states that Jews seek signs, gentiles seek knowledge. Because we seek different 'facts' than Jews, it is easy to see things the Jews put very little weight in.

From a Jewish mindset, you cannot separate the spiritual from the physical. Both work in harmony to paint a picture. Gentiles look at 'Or' statements such as spiritual or physical. Jews use 'and' statements such as spiritual and physical.

In regard to water baptism, Jews see it as both a spiritual and physical event and as JohnDB has shown, the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus is much broader than a single, modern day doctrine.

I understand you will disagree with this, and it is within the grace God has provided you to do so. I do not seek disagreement with you, but what I do ask is that we give each other enough space to share what we have learned without opposing one another.

I don’t oppose anyone here, though I may disagree with their doctrine.


Since, as you say, “you and I were not raised, nor are either of us fully aware of the teachings of Hillel to which Nicodemus, Paul, and Jesus were acutely aware of”, why not discuss the scripture itself and what it plainly says?


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Do you believe born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth?


Do you believe born of water refers to natural birth?



To me, verse 5, explains verse 6.


Born of water refers to “that which is born of the flesh is flesh”.


Born of the Spirit refers to “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”.


To me, it seems simple.



How about you?




JLB

 

[ezra]

i for one am through with this post.. it is getting personal . i have brother that has been in the ministry my guess close to over 30 years maybe close to 40 . there are things i dont agree with him ..we do just fine

 

[stovebolts]

I don’t oppose anyone here, though I may disagree with their doctrine.


Since, as you say, “you and I were not raised, nor are either of us fully aware of the teachings of Hillel to which Nicodemus, Paul, and Jesus were acutely aware of”, why not discuss the scripture itself and what it plainly says?


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Do you believe born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth?


Do you believe born of water refers to natural birth?



To me, verse 5, explains verse 6.


Born of water refers to “that which is born of the flesh is flesh”.


Born of the Spirit refers to “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”.


To me, it seems simple.



How about you?




JLB

I think I'm interested in asking different questions than you are. Questions you won't be able to answer because you don't hold the wisdom Nicodemus held.
Have you ever studied Hillel? I've done a little, but I want to learn more.

I have an appreciation for the culture and I'm not so interested in discussing modern day doctrines or surface level readings, but thanks anyway.

 

[JohnDB]

What facts and evidence have you produced John.


I for one have not tried to refute what you said.


The main point I made was born of water does not refer to water baptism.


Do you believe a person is born again because they are baptized in natural water?


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


John explains verse 5, in verse 6.


Born of water refers to natural child birth - That which is born of the flesh is flesh



Born of the Spirit refers to spiritual birth - that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



That’s really the only point I have made so far.




JLB

I put up two posts of facts showing precisely why "born again" is not an acceptable translation of the manuscripts and why. That the conversation was radically different from the most preached. (Which you apparently support)

I used the original language and translation, cultural anthropological evidence, and quotes from those who knew better than to perpetuate the fallacy, and explained why the footnote is accurate and how the conversation actually went and what it meant from a thematic, grammatical, and logical point of view. Meanwhile explaining that the commonly held view of that section was covered by Paul as it was a thought applied to Gentiles converted to Judaism and didn't apply to this conversation. Paul did borrow this thought and applied it to Gentiles joining "The Way" in several passages. But John's Gospel doesn't touch this theme. He has other themes he is interested in explaining.

It's not personal, it's just that I thought that you guys might try to actually use some proofs and facts to refute what I have explained other than personal feelings and claiming that "it's the same" when it's anything but the same.

 

[stovebolts]

JohnDB,
You were saying something earlier that Nicodemus would have heard Jesus saying something about being predestined as a saint. Can you explain where that understanding came from? Was it just known and if so, shouldn't there be hints of it in the Talmud?