By God’s law it’s impossible … it’s only possible by God’s grace!

[Deborah13]

I have known for years that the great and venerable and anointed KJV is far from perfect.
Just think of all of the great missionaries and evangelists, etc. who used it all over the world.

I agree, there are times when the KJV is not perfect. But the YLT also says "of Christ". Care to investigate the Koine to determine the translation? Have you done this? The determination of an objective or subjective genitive very often can only be determined by exegesis,(per Moulton)
So in this case, does Jesus receive our faith?
"the love of Christ" is that objective genitive or subjective genitive?

@Deborah13 :

Young's is very formal, and it goes for form over interpretation, so often, so I would expect it to do what it does, really.

Just to mention that objective refers to the grammatical object, rather than to the objective/subjective paradigm. (I've just been around seminary folk who have explained it this way.)

Blessings.

YLT means literal translation. Yes, he used the formal language like the King James but in this case we don't have to deal with old English, there isn't any that I see. YLT actually does not follow the KJV, quite often the wording is different both in form and arrangement.

So what is your understanding of "grammatical object". The object of the prepositional phrase?

blessing to you, too.

 

[Deborah13]

PS: Though subjective genitive does exist as a term, I see. (If you google: "faith of Christ objective genitive", a number of articles will come up.) Blessings.

Thanks farouk, I'll do that.

 

[Deborah13]

Galatians 2:16 KJV I am changing to give the translation if we change the genitive to 'in'

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

There is something Very weird about this interpretation, in my opinion. The GK, says all of this, the phrase 'even we have believed in Jesus Christ' was not added. So are we saying the Paul was just being redundant?

 

[John Zain]

Php_3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law,
but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God of faith:

Perhaps the key is the U/L ...
our righteousness comes from God ... because of our faith.

 

[farouk]

I have known for years that the great and venerable and anointed KJV is far from perfect.
Just think of all of the great missionaries and evangelists, etc. who used it all over the world.

I agree, there are times when the KJV is not perfect. But the YLT also says "of Christ". Care to investigate the Koine to determine the translation? Have you done this? The determination of an objective or subjective genitive very often can only be determined by exegesis,(per Moulton)
So in this case, does Jesus receive our faith?
"the love of Christ" is that objective genitive or subjective genitive?

@Deborah13 :

Young's is very formal, and it goes for form over interpretation, so often, so I would expect it to do what it does, really.

Just to mention that objective refers to the grammatical object, rather than to the objective/subjective paradigm. (I've just been around seminary folk who have explained it this way.)

Blessings.

YLT means literal translation. Yes, he used the formal language like the King James but in this case we don't have to deal with old English, there isn't any that I see. YLT actually does not follow the KJV, quite often the wording is different both in form and arrangement.

So what is your understanding of "grammatical object". The object of the prepositional phrase?

blessing to you, too.

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

Yes, I guess so.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

Galatians 2:16 KJV I am changing to give the translation if we change the genitive to 'in'

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

There is something Very weird about this interpretation, in my opinion. The GK, says all of this, the phrase 'even we have believed in Jesus Christ' was not added. So are we saying the Paul was just being redundant?

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

I guess also the article 'the' could idiomatically be omitted from 'by the faith in Jesus Christ', as in 'by faith in Jesus Christ'; I know that in some languages such as French and Spanish it's idiomatic to retain the article here, but anyway in English maybe it's not strictly necessary.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Galatians 2:16 KJV I am changing to give the translation if we change the genitive to 'in'

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

There is something Very weird about this interpretation, in my opinion. The GK, says all of this, the phrase 'even we have believed in Jesus Christ' was not added. So are we saying the Paul was just being redundant?

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

I guess also the article 'the' could idiomatically be omitted from 'by the faith in Jesus Christ', as in 'by faith in Jesus Christ'; I know that in some languages such as French and Spanish it's idiomatic to retain the article here, but anyway in English maybe it's not strictly necessary.

Blessings.

Oh, good point! 'the' is not in the GK.


16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

That's better but still ...? Don't know..

 

[farouk]

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

I've heard it said, anyway, that translating the Greek article can be one of the most tricky aspects of KOINE Greek. For myself, I guess I approach it more from the modern languages with which I'm familiar.

(But I mustn't get off topic.)

Blessings.

 

[Guest]

Are you born again John? Are you a born again believer as the bible describes one must be?

lol.

 

[Deborah13]

Php_3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law,
but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God of faith:

Perhaps the key is the U/L ...
our righteousness comes from God ... because of our faith.

Now that sounds closer and I know that's true. I feel like our part of it is the phrase "even we have believed (faith) in Christ". So if we plug in "faith" in place of believed, which is the same, it becomes even more redundant. Does that make sense to you?
That's why by context, I think, the correct translation is "of Christ", subjective genitive case.
This translation does not in anyway take away our obligation to obey Christ's Royal Law of love. In fact, to me, it makes me 'in my heart' even more resolved to obey because of His goodness. It also makes me feel confident that He will provide the way for me to do that. I'm not always faithful but He is. He's not going to get lazy or sloppy about teaching me how to walking in righteousness which will change me from a slug to a holy butterfly.
Sorry for the girly terms, been like that lately don't know why. Please bear with me.

 

[John Zain]

That's why by context, I think, the correct translation is "of Christ", subjective genitive case. This translation does not in anyway take away our obligation to obey Christ's Royal Law of love. In fact, to me, it makes me 'in my heart' even more resolved to obey because of His goodness. It also makes me feel confident that He will provide the way for me to do that. I'm not always faithful but He is. He's not going to get lazy or sloppy about teaching me how to walking in righteousness which will change me from a slug to a holy butterfly.

Of course, you are right ... but, we're NOT talking about you!
And this is where everyone is blind.

We're talking about those few who have made a decision UNLIKE yours ...
... to ditch the whole thing, and go back to what they miss terribly.
Not exactly like Lot's wife because she had no holy Spirit.

And we're talking about those many throughout the ages who were brainwashed
into OSAS, and simply did not take their walk with Christ seriously!
They walked in the flesh mostly ... they mostly did not walk in the Spirit.
IMO, the NT says they lost their salvation, period.

Do you have any idea at all what I'm talking about, or cannot you get past your own self?

Last call ... the train's leaving!
On or off? ... In or out?

 

[Guest]

View attachment 3387

 

[Deborah13]

That's why by context, I think, the correct translation is "of Christ", subjective genitive case. This translation does not in anyway take away our obligation to obey Christ's Royal Law of love. In fact, to me, it makes me 'in my heart' even more resolved to obey because of His goodness. It also makes me feel confident that He will provide the way for me to do that. I'm not always faithful but He is. He's not going to get lazy or sloppy about teaching me how to walking in righteousness which will change me from a slug to a holy butterfly.

Of course, you are right ... but, we're NOT talking about you!
And this is where everyone is blind.

We're talking about those few who have made a decision UNLIKE yours ...
... to ditch the whole thing, and go back to what they miss terribly.
Not exactly like Lot's wife because she had no holy Spirit.

And we're talking about those many throughout the ages who were brainwashed
into OSAS, and simply did not take their walk with Christ seriously!
They walked in the flesh mostly ... they mostly did not walk in the Spirit.
IMO, the NT says they lost their salvation, period.

Do you have any idea at all what I'm talking about, or cannot you get past your own self?

Last call ... the train's leaving!
On or off? ... In or out?

You know John, you are right it's not about me. It's ALL about Jesus and how much God loves us. How much He loves all men. So when I post I try not to tell other people how they should feel. But through my experiences with God I try to be a witness of His love, mercy, and grace,
"It is the Goodness of God, that brings one to repentance."

As far as the people in this forum, I am not aware of any OSAS people who believe that they can just do anything that is against the Law of Love.

So maybe, if your problem is that you don't like the doctrine of OSAS and you really want to reach others in wisdom and love, you could take the scriptures that OSAS doctrine uses to prove it and by exegesis break them down, and disprove it that way. I don't see how your current approach has achieved your desired results. Usually people just cling even harder to what they know, if they are attacked.

Blessings to you and your wife, hope you are both is happy, blessed, and well.

 

[John Zain]

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love,
just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Translation of the above ...

Jesus' true disciples are Christians who abide in Him and bear much fruit.
Christians who do not abide in Jesus are taken away and thrown into the fire.
Christians who do not bear fruit are cast out and thrown into the fire.

 

[John Zain]

I don't see how your current approach has achieved your desired results.

Jesus told His disciples to present the gospel,
and if they reject it ... well, you know the rest.
Same with evangelists today.
They come in and say what the pastors dare NOT say, and leave.
I was called to be an evangelist.
I present the Scriptures which were designed to convict.
It's up to the people and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Guest]

I was called to be an evangelist.

Yeah, but you're preaching to people who are already saved. You need to spread your gospel to non-believers.

 

[Danus]

we're talking about those many throughout the ages who were brainwashed into OSAS, and simply did not take their walk with Christ seriously! They walked in the flesh mostly ... they mostly did not walk in the Spirit. IMO, the NT says they lost their salvation, period.

Last call ... the train's leaving! On or off? ... In or out?

Enjoy your train ride on the meritorious salvation, maybe saved, may not, who knows express. Hope you're good enough for God in the end, but I know there is no way you can know. But, if you are, perhaps you, Jesus, the Holly Spirit and God can partner up like the "Supper Friends" and combine your powers to fight evil .

 

[Deborah13]

I don't see how your current approach has achieved your desired results.

Jesus told His disciples to present the gospel,
and if they reject it ... well, you know the rest.
Same with evangelists today.
They come in and say what the pastors dare NOT say, and leave.
I was called to be an evangelist.
I present the Scriptures which were designed to convict.
It's up to the people and the Holy Spirit.

Well, I must say that the apostles were evangelists and they presented the Gospel of Christ. But when they presented it they also gave encouragement to their brothers in Christ. John would say things like, paraphrase.."But I have confidence in you..."
They didn't condemn and walk away, they edified the body of Christ and they learned to do this, from Jesus Himself. They were filled with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Danus]

I was called to be an evangelist.

Matthew 22:14King James Version (KJV)

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Deborah13]

I present the Scriptures which were designed to convict.

1 John 1 and 2 KJV
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John, truly care for them. He told them the truth, with love.