Calvinism and Arminianism are both wrong!

[childeye]

Arminianism:
Free Will or Human Ability


I look forward to being educated on how both positions are wrong ...
... are they both wrong on every point?

I think it's mostly an argument in semantics. I believe that the unmoveable implication of determinism and the illusive and fluid definition of the term free will is at the center of the divide, and that it is generally identified as some form of recognition of the existence of good and evil. Ah yes, the knowledge of good and evil, which the serpent wanted us to have, Genesis 3:5, and God did not. Genesis 2:17.

The amoral semantics usually occur by conflating choice/option/determinism with choice/decision/freewill. In the mind of an average person, the fact that an option exists of evil and good, is often mistakenly asserted as proof to conclude, that people have the freedom to decide for themselves which one they will choose, without ever establishing that they actually do.
Inevitably, this debate digresses into one side claiming the other side is either denying they can stop sinning by their own volition, or claiming they can be righteous by their own volition.

And this brings us to the issue of higher powers in regards to deception and revelation. Deception is the art of making good appear to be evil and evil appear to be good. I believe that deception is a usurping through unfaith of an Eternal Truth, which such usurping proposes through subtlety, that a negative must be disproven. To claim that every man has the ability to decide for themselves is shortsighted, when not addressing the issue that a person can be manipulated through deception to believe that good is evil and evil is good; Yet pertinent, when a deceived person is enlightened through revelation of Truth, and yet still retains the presumptive option to decide what is actually true. Hence semantically driven confusion occurs.

Moreover, sin's temptation is based on appealing to a person's vanity. And therefore the proposition that mankind is without any disability that would inhibit their ability to choose for themselves what is good or evil, is a presumptive form of ignorance that is its self a form of vanity.

Hence, there are also moral/immoral semantics that also go unrealized as they confound the mind and blur what is good and what is evil. For God is Holy, and all evil is defined in contrast to His Holy Character. The learned know that evil has two contrary directions through which to defile God's Image, and which necessarily creates semantically driven opposite meanings of words and phrases that are able to cause confusion. One direction is to take away from what is Holy so as presume to improve upon it, and the other is to add to what is Holy so as to presume to improve upon it. Both change and defile what is Holy through presumption, and yet both are contrary to one another in inference and connotation. Therefore, deception is formed by using contrary meanings of the same word or words to confuse the victim through subterfuge.

Neither Arminian nor Calvinist doctrine appear to deal with the actual mechanics of how the powers of Light and darkness exist in form or operation, simply because they frame the issue of salvation as freewill vs. determinism.

 

[chessman]

Here are Calvin's own words on the devil/devils, which he admittedly pays little attentions to in his theology:

"Some persons grumble ...

The quote you posted is what he said about some people's grumbling... about the devil's fall, not so much about all his views on the devil/devils themselves and study thereof. He most certainly does have a lot to say on devils as adversaries to man.

His point there (in that quote) was that the Scriptures 'pay little attention' to the details of the fall of the Devil (Satan) and his angels, not that the Scriptures or his theology work do not speak of the Devil and his messengers as our adversaries often and extensively. Which, he's right, Scripture does not have a lot to say about the how/when/where/why of Satan's creation or his fall.

You seem to know/post a lot about the devil and his messengers. So why not start a thread and what Scripture(s) exactly teaches you when the Devil was created and fell, for example? Or when/where/why was the devil created for another example. (And yes, I'm aware of the fact that God created 'all things'. So was Calvin as he did speak about it in his work(s).

He's not saying that devils are not important to study in that quote (as you implied) and in fact he has a lot to say about our war (and Paul's) against the Devil and his messengers.

I'd suggest that Calvin's claim above is the claim of a blind man

I'd suggest you've not really read any of Calvin's theology. Have you actually read his theology?

Plus, given your POV, what man is not blinded by adversarial war and have a messenger of Satan in his/her flesh? But all that probably belongs in another topic/thread rather than this one.

 

[atpollard]

As does my first Pastor, I have labeled myself a a Biblicist because my view is "If the Bible says it, I believe it! God inspired/wrote the entire book and in Deuteronomy 4:2 and at the end of chapter 22 of The Revelation we find God promising that not a single word will ever be added to nor subtracted from His Written Word. Oh, and there are no conflicting passages in the Bible to any man filled with the Holy Spirit for the Spirit teaches us how to reconcile them to one another.

You do realize that this is largely empty rhetoric. I mean, virtually every Calvinist and Arminian and Catholic (Roman, Eastern Orthodox, etc.) would in complete honesty say exactly the same thing. A Protestant (Calvinist or Arminian) would differ on how they see the parables and metaphors interpreted and applied [some Lutherans would just embrace 'mystery' and not attempt to reconcile apparent contradictory verses, just applying each as the situation warranted.] Catholics (of all flavors) would trust to the hierarchy of the church and the writings of the church fathers to correctly interpret scripture, but they would also claim that they believe what they believe because the Bible says it.

So, in verses Jer. 23:24, Prov 15:3, 1Kings 8:27 we learn that God is Omnipresent. He is literally everywhere but wait a second, I really mean everywhere. The LORD is right this moment everywhere there is on the planet and He is still seated in the Throne Room. Where am I going? God created, out of nothing but His will, this Time/Space Continuum and every person, bird, animal, lake, just everything you see or touch is a product from the hand of God.

We find that a day in Heaven is like unto a thousand years of our time. So there is nothing here like God or Heaven. Our minds put our Omnipotent. Omniscient, and Omnipresent God all over the Earth and maybe in Heaven at this moment but we must learn to cease putting God in some sort of container, there is not one He fits into anyway. No, God is, right now, in the past, in the present, and He is in the future right now!

In Rev. 17:8 and in thirteen we learn that the Book of Life is not being written but is finished and closed. How could men made like unto the image of God do that because they, like God, have a free will? God was there before it happened, He is Omnipotent and with no limits, He is Omnipresent!

I pray this helps.

I don't know of any Christian who is not in awe of the incomprehensible nature of God. That he exists beyond our time and space is freely granted. That he has no limits, except those imposed by his own nature (God cannot be contrary to his divine nature), is also freely granted.

I do not see how this impacts salvation or any of the points of Calvinism or Arminianism. Let me probe with a question to try and understand.

Romans 10:9-10 [NIV] If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

I don't want to get into lots of arguments, so let's keep this simple and something we can all agree on. Let's define "START" for this conversation as the moment when someone first declares with their mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believes in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. No Christian should have a problem with the existence of such a moment in the life of any person who will ultimately spend eternity in heaven. Looking just at the issue of Human Ability vs Total Inability (see the OP if you want to read more details, but it is not necessary).

Human Ability says that people choose to cooperate or resist and decide for themselves to believe or to not believe.
Total Inability says that people are unable to believe, so belief is God's gift to the sinner.
THE QUESTION: Does "START" belief come from man or God? (Or are both wrong and the 'Biblicist' answer is ...)

 

[atpollard]

Neither Arminian nor Calvinism doctrine appear to deal with the actual mechanics of how the powers of Light and darkness exist in form or operation, simply because they frame the issue of salvation as freewill vs. determinism.

Bravo. I will need to think a lot more about what you said before I am ready to agree or disagree, but it was very well articulated and insightful.
Thank you.

 

[th1b.taylor]

You do realize that this is largely empty rhetoric. I mean, virtually every Calvinist and Arminian and Catholic (Roman, Eastern Orthodox, etc.) would in complete honesty say exactly the same thing. A Protestant (Calvinist or Arminian) would differ on how they see the parables and metaphors interpreted and applied [some Lutherans would just embrace 'mystery' and not attempt to reconcile apparent contradictory verses, just applying each as the situation warranted.] Catholics (of all flavors) would trust to the hierarchy of the church and the writings of the church fathers to correctly interpret scripture, but they would also claim that they believe what they believe because the Bible says it.

To go to the point you elusively draw my attention to; hes, I do realize that better than 98% of the Churches membership is not indwelt with the Holy Spirit and thus, are noy saved.
[/quote]
I don't know of any Christian who is not in awe of the incomprehensible nature of God. That he exists beyond our time and space is freely granted. That he has no limits, except those imposed by his own nature (God cannot be contrary to his divine nature), is also freely granted.

I do not see how this impacts salvation or any of the points of Calvinism or Arminianism. Let me probe with a question to try and understand.

Romans 10:9-10 [NIV] If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

I don't want to get into lots of arguments, so let's keep this simple and something we can all agree on. Let's define "START" for this conversation as the moment when someone first declares with their mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believes in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. No Christian should have a problem with the existence of such a moment in the life of any person who will ultimately spend eternity in heaven. Looking just at the issue of Human Ability vs Total Inability (see the OP if you want to read more details, but it is not necessary).

Human Ability says that people choose to cooperate or resist and decide for themselves to believe or to not believe.
Total Inability says that people are unable to believe, so belief is God's gift to the sinner.
THE QUESTION: Does "START" belief come from man or God? (Or are both wrong and the 'Biblicist' answer is ...)[/QUOTE]
The answer is, "God gives man the faith to believe but most of mankind is so enamored with Self Aggrandizement of the Human Race that they take that Measure of Faith they receive from God and pllace it in the knowledge of the Men Of Science."

 

[Mike S]

The thing people choose not to ignore is that both of the popular positions and the much less popular position of being a Biblicist are, all three, well within the Pail Of Orthodox within the Christian Faith. And try, though the might, they will never convince a Holy God that this is a Salvation Issue.

I agree, Bill, and for the life of me can't see how knowing the answer to which is theologically correct would make an iota of difference in how I lead my life dedicated to Christ.

 

[atpollard]

I agree, Bill, and for the life of me can't see how knowing the answer to which is theologically correct would make an iota of difference in how I lead my life dedicated to Christ.

Do you know what happened in the life of Martin Luther when he discovered that his salvation was based on grace rather than the merit of his works?

The answer mattered to how he led his life dedicated to Christ.
Our salvation may not hang in the balance, but I think that Theological Truth is worth pursuing.

 

[atpollard]

The answer is, "God gives man the faith to believe but most of mankind is so enamored with Self Aggrandizement of the Human Race that they take that Measure of Faith they receive from God and place it in the knowledge of the Men Of Science."

That would be Weslyan Arminianism (the root of the Methodist Church and Church of God). God covers original sin with a universal grace that gives men the freedom to choose. So for the first point, the Biblicist position matches the Arminian position.

Would you like to continue exploring the other points?
Let's look at Universal Redemption and Particular Redemption.

Universal Redemption claims Christ died for every sin of every person, but the sin is only actually forgiven if the specific person chooses to accept it.
Particular Redemption claims that Christ's death infallibly obtained complete forgiveness of every sin but only for those who will ultimately be saved.

THE QUESTION: Did Christ die to gain every person only a chance at salvation, or did Christ die to guarantee the salvation of some people? (Or are both wrong and the 'Biblicist' answer is ...)

 

[th1b.taylor]

Do you know what happened in the life of Martin Luther when he discovered that his salvation was based on grace rather than the merit of his works?

The answer mattered to how he led his life dedicated to Christ.
Our salvation may not hang in the balance, but I think that Theological Truth is worth pursuing.

and your answer to MikeS is marked down as Knee Jerk Rhetoric. Neither he nor I said a word relative to this ¿rabbit trail? MikeS was answering my post but neither of the three short posts addressed the quality of life issue.

 

[th1b.taylor]

That would be Weslyan Arminianism (the root of the Methodist Church and Church of God). God covers original sin with a universal grace that gives men the freedom to choose. So for the first point, the Biblicist position matches the Arminian position.

Would you like to continue exploring the other points?

No, your wrong and no, I will not help you being rude and hijacking this thread! If you had been paying attention in our exchanges you coulda/woulda known there are elements of both major position that need to be discarded and most ofboth are biblical and must be kept, I am a very, very, old Biblicist, period.

 

[atpollard]

No, your wrong and no, I will not help you being rude and hijacking this thread! If you had been paying attention in our exchanges you coulda/woulda known there are elements of both major position that need to be discarded and most ofboth are biblical and must be kept, I am a very, very, old Biblicist, period.

I apologize for giving offense.
I created this thread specifically to avoid hijacking another thread while examining the claim that both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong. I thought that was what we were doing, I am sorry if you view this as somehow hijacking anything.

I will not bother you and your mysterious 'non-Calvinist or Arminian' Biblicist views any further.

 

[Mike S]

Do you know what happened in the life of Martin Luther when he discovered that his salvation was based on grace rather than the merit of his works?

The answer mattered to how he led his life dedicated to Christ.
Our salvation may not hang in the balance, but I think that Theological Truth is worth pursuing.

I agree it's worth pursuing as an intellectual exercise. I just don't think having an answer makes any difference to day to day Christian living.

 

[childeye]

The Light of the Holy Spirit is working in every true believer to find their way in the dark. Hence we are led by the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:14.
Therefore Truth/Light, and the absence of Truth/Light, is what makes all the difference in all moral/immoral decisions.

 

[atpollard]

I agree it's worth pursuing as an intellectual exercise. I just don't think having an answer makes any difference to day to day Christian living.

I was not being flippant, and I offer some words from Martin Luther himself on the impact that right vs wrong theology had on his day to day Christian living:

"Verily I was a devout monk, and followed the rules of my order so strictly that I cannot tell you all. If ever a monk entered into heaven by his monkish merits, certainly I should have obtained an entrance there. The doctors and theologians told me to do good works and thus to satisfy divine justice. But what good works can proceed out of a heart like mine, a heart full of evil thoughts and desires?"

"Although I was a holy and irreproachable monk, my conscience was full of trouble and anguish. I could not bear the words, 'Justice of God.' I loved not the just and the holy God who punishes sinners. I was filled with secret rage against Him, and hated Him, because, not satisfied with terrifying us, His miserable creatures, already lost by original sin, with His law and the miseries of life, He still further increased our torment by the gospel ... But when, by the Spirit of God, I comprehended these words; when I learned how the sinner's justification proceeds from the pure mercy of the Lord by means of faith, then I felt myself revived like a new man, and entered at open doors into the very paradise of God. From that time, also, I beheld the precious sacred volume with new eyes. I went over all the Bible, and collected a great number of passages which taught me what the work of God was. And as I had previously, with all my heart, hated the words, 'Justice of God,' so from that time I began to esteem and love them, as words most sweet and most consoling. In truth, these words were to me the true gate of paradise."

I can only add that it mattered a great deal to my life.
God Bless,
Arthur

 

[smaller]

The quote you posted is what he said about some people's grumbling... about the devil's fall, not so much about all his views on the devil/devils themselves and study thereof. He most certainly does have a lot to say on devils as adversaries to man.

Calvin generally avoided the subject matter because it was at the time an arena of a tremendous amount of superstitions.

His point there (in that quote) was that the Scriptures 'pay little attention' to the details of the fall of the Devil (Satan) and his angels, not that the Scriptures or his theology work do not speak of the Devil and his messengers as our adversaries often and extensively. Which, he's right, Scripture does not have a lot to say about the how/when/where/why of Satan's creation or his fall.

That's because there was no fall to start with. John 8:44.

But yes, scripture actually does have a super abundance of information about the devil and his messengers, evil, sin, etc. all of which are related matters. It's not that I'm against a LOT of what Calvin brought forth. He did well on some subjects that freewill orthodoxy stumbled on. With some minor tweaking Calvin would be spot on, SUCH AS when claiming "Total Depravity" at LEAST get the devil into that picture and not just man. 1 John 3:8.

People who teach Calvin are so obsessed with man and sin and they leave the devil out of the equations or maybe just as a minor footnote to the matters when in fact the bulk of the scriptural observations of Total Depravity should be focused in the direction of the devil and NOT to the devils blinded captives. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

You seem to know/post a lot about the devil and his messengers. So why not start a thread and what Scripture(s) exactly teaches you when the Devil was created and fell, for example?

I know what scriptures have to say about these things and it's been discussed here many times. The scriptural facts do tend to throw wrenches in any positions that overlook the scriptural facts, such as noted above. A similar set of scriptural critique's applies to Arminianism as well.

And even in the perpetual back and forth about OSAS or non, when scriptural reality sets in, it's really not a one or the other deal. It's both. People who want to make claims about "believers" only being OSAS are completely ignoring the scriptural depictions of the construct of man. IF they did NOT ignore the scriptural construct of man, they'd know better and wouldn't try to make such stupid one sided arguments.

Calvin's determinism gave birth to OSAS, but Calvin's positions don't allow for OSAS.

Or when/where/why was the devil created for another example. (And yes, I'm aware of the fact that God created 'all things'. So was Calvin as he did speak about it in his work(s).

He's not saying that devils are not important to study in that quote (as you implied) and in fact he has a lot to say about our war (and Paul's) against the Devil and his messengers.

My single biggest complaint about Calvin is in his understandings of the contruct of man, which, if factored in, would change his TULIP synopsis, considerably. I'd call his sights one eyed for the most part when two are required.

I'd suggest you've not really read any of Calvin's theology. Have you actually read his theology?

Plus, given your POV, what man is not blinded by adversarial war and have a messenger of Satan in his/her flesh? But all that probably belongs in another topic/thread rather than this one.

I can only stand to read one eyed sight for a limited time, as the bulk of it tends to be irrelevant and immaterial sight. But yes, I've read a sufficient amount of Calvin to understand where he's coming from i.e. to understand his points, which for half a loaf sights, are not bad.

and FWIW, when I read Calvin's works, I'd respond to them with various counter observations or add more confirmation scriptural light, no differently than when responding to posters claims here.

 

[smaller]

The Light of the Holy Spirit is working in every true believer to find their way in the dark. Hence we are led by the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:14.
Therefore Truth/Light, and the absence of Truth/Light, is what makes all the difference in all moral/immoral decisions.

That's the fun part of theology ain't it childeye? It's always both. Whenever we try to get entirely into one side or the other we'll have problems.

The discussions of Christian scripture are quite unique, as it requires a 3 dimensional mindset that we're not used to handling by our surface/flesh nature.

2 Corinthians 4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

Tough gig.

2 Corinthians 2:16
To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

What pours forth from the Spirit is BOTH, simultaneously. Which is what makes scripture so utterly fascinating.

 

[childeye]

That's the fun part of theology ain't it childeye? It's always both. Whenever we try to get entirely into one side or the other we'll have problems.

The discussions of Christian scripture are quite unique, as it requires a 3 dimensional mindset that we're not used to handling by our surface/flesh nature.

2 Corinthians 4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

Tough gig.

2 Corinthians 2:16
To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

What pours forth from the Spirit is BOTH, simultaneously. Which is what makes scripture so utterly fascinating.

The fun part? I will gladly admit, that as I marvel at God, I am sometimes forced to snicker at myself. We are utterly blind lest He speak to us. And even though I know this, vanity yet materializes in my reasoning even as I conveniently forget to apply such knowledge when measuring others. Subsequently, His reproof and angst at my lack of grace, becomes worth more to me than any person's praise unto my righteousness.

 

[smaller]

The fun part? I will gladly admit, that as I marvel at God, I am sometimes forced to snicker at myself. We are utterly blind lest He speak to us. And even though I know this, vanity yet materializes in my reasoning even as I conveniently forget to apply such knowledge when measuring others. Subsequently, His reproof and angst at my lack of grace, becomes worth more to me than any person's praise unto my righteousness.

Brilliant deductions. We often fail to see that our "turning" comes at His Reproof:

Proverbs 1:23
Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

I might term it facing our fears to hear.

I'd suggest Mr's. Calvin and Arminius had identical problems. Thinking they didn't is part of the same deceptions/problems in their respective adherents.

 

[childeye]

Brilliant deductions. We often fail to see that our "turning" comes at His Reproof:

Proverbs 1:23
Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

I might term it facing our fears to hear.

Since we are pondering two things at once, I must wonder if in this instance we are patting each other on the back while kicking each other in the butt.

 

[smaller]

Since we are pondering two things at once, I must wonder if in this instance we are patting each other on the back while kicking each other in the butt.

You are soo smart I'm sending a holy kiss yer way.

Romans 16:16
1 Cor. 16:20
2 Cor. 13:12
1 Thes. 5:26