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Are these not your words?

---> "I just don't agree with it."

Because I don't agree with something does not mean I denigrate Mary. I started out this entire conversation by saying that I love her and respect her. I happen to have images of the Holy Family all over my home. You shouldn't assume to know me beyond what I say.


Hence my question: So you don't agree that Mary gave flesh to the Second Person of the Trinity? (That was her role in salvation economy.

Of course I believe this. But, as you well know, the belief that she had MORE to do with the doctrine of God's economy salvation is prevalent in the church. As you well know, even the fact the she was at the foot of the cross is always mentioned. Her role at the Wedding of Cana is always mentioned.


God does have a mother. Either Christ is God or He is not. If He is, then Mary can be called the Mother of God. The incarnation, by definition, requires a mother.

You cannot divide Christ into separate parts, quantities and portions. He is one Person and Mary is His mother.

"And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him." (Matthew 2:11)

You seem to be confusing God Father with God Son.
God Father is the Almighty God that existed BEFORE anything was ever created.

God the Word or God the 2nd person or God Son (as He became known) was a PART OF GOD FATHER...He was the Word....
This WORD is what became incarnated 2,000 years ago...
JESUS was born 2,000 years ago...
Not God Father.

Mary was the Mother of Jesus....
This debate was had already with the ECFs, we don't need to repeat it. You know the Nicene Creed, I'm not even going to post it. Please consider it again. Our Lord was conceived...NOT GOD ALMIGHTY.

Matthew 2:11
They worshipped the incarnated WORD...The Son of God.
Jesus is indeed God. But Jesus was BORN...GOD Father was NEVER born.


If you deny her role in the economy of salvation like you do below, then you are denigrating her.

You just answered your own question. (She provided the "Seed".) Christ took His human nature from her. Again, the incarnation, by definition, requires a mother.
I'm sorry you feel that not considering Mary to be a co-redeemer is denigration. And I've explained the incarnation.

You believe Mary is not venerated enough....
I believe she's venerated too much....
I don't think we'll be able to get beyond this.
 
One can only hope...
Well, last time I was right.
That was about 4 years ago and we got Amoris Laetitia with the famous pargraph 8 and the asterisk down at the bottom.

This time I'm not certain if it's a local change or a church-wide change...but it's coming. I might get more info as time goes on.
 
Ok, we'll end it then. Best wishes to you and God bless.
Agreed.
I think the horse is dead.
I'm a lot friendlier to the CC than you can imagine.
It's just that I don't agree with all the doctrine....
My feelings DO NOT go beyond this disagreement.
Blessings.
 
Jeff,

Thanks for the post. I apologize if I have come off argumentative. This thread got off the rails pretty early. I simply was asking a question that I was having trouble logically understanding.

One of the posters asked me to stop discussing with her so that should end it.
W,
Just to be clear...
We were just discussing...No problem.
I just wish you'd see me as an individual.
I think every church has its problems.
I love Mary, I read and respect the ECFs....
I DO NOT dislike the CC...and agree with it in many ways.
I DO hope to have more discussions with you....

I firmly believe that all persons that love Jesus are brothers IN HIM...maybe we need to let go of denominations a little bit and concentrate on that?

And as to the creed...
The CC is the true church....
why discard what is correct about it?
Luther knew the troubles the church went
through to allow it to remain pure at the beginning...
all the heresies that had to be fought.

I often say that if it were not for the CC, there would be
no Christianity by now.
 
To wondering and Walpole.

Thank you both for answering my question. There are a few things that are off still, (at least for me and my understanding). I don't have much arguments for or against anything regarding the pope as a station of the church, but there are several things that without any knowledge of church history as a foundation creates a feeling that something is off.

The first part is about the Pope acting as a protector of correct doctrine and theology. You both mention hope regarding the next Pope, and of the small bits on Catholic stuff I've heard it sound like depending on who's taken office as pope some theology and doctrine are favored and others rejected to the point that it seems at least to me that the position isn't about protecting correct doctrine, but to encourage their own theological stance. This might have nothing to do with the station of being pope, as much as just being Human and not being perfect, but it is an observation none the less from an outsider to the CC.

One other part that I don't know about is the relationship between the Pope and the magistrate. Is it that the Pope heads the magistrate or takes part in the magistrate? The difference being that if consoles of bishops, cardinals, or elders has much of a say when it comes to discussing issues in faith or in ministry, or if the magistrate are there to send out the message from the pope instead of come together and work out the issues.

There's a few other things but I think if I say too much it'll seem like I have an issue with the Catholic Church and want to vent them all out here. The truth is that I don't have anything to correct or confirm the ideas for the CC or ideas against them. It's all fair game which makes it all just as unreliable for tending what is true or even what is accurate. With that in mind I've one more question to present. That is: why is the seat of Rome in Rome? Why isn't the seat of the Pope in the Middle East?

Recently I read a book titled "A Biography of Bethlehem." The book was a history of the town as much as the author could find and discuss. Because of the nature of the town having very little record of it's history throughout history, a big part of the book was also about big events that affected Israel. One of these events described was a conflict between western Christianity and Middle Eastern Christianity. And the seat of the Church wasn't always in Rome. As the author puts it the seat of the pope moved to Rome. Which caused a rift between two groups of Christians. Those that started and stayed in the Middle East (with their leaders, theology, and political influences) against those who were far away (with their own leaders, theology, and political influences. According to the book that change in where the decisions and consoles were made changed outlooks and favored one theology over another, as well as grew more and more distant from Israel/Palestine leaving their troubles and concerns behind. Possible being a factor in the split between the Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox.

The author, I found by reading the book, is a Palestinian historian. He isn't Catholic, and might not even be Christian. And some of what he said regarding other historians has lead me to question historians as a whole, him included. But regardless not favoring his conclusions or favoring the Catholic Church's history conclusions leaves a vacuume of questions without a reliable answer on my own.

One of those questions that I gained from that book is why the position of Pope moved to Rome. (Or if it was moved at all).

Sorry for the long explanation and question. But I thought the explanation was needed for questioning further the answer that Rome was selected because of Peter ending up in Rome.
 
To wondering and Walpole.

Thank you both for answering my question. There are a few things that are off still, (at least for me and my understanding). I don't have much arguments for or against anything regarding the pope as a station of the church, but there are several things that without any knowledge of church history as a foundation creates a feeling that something is off.

The first part is about the Pope acting as a protector of correct doctrine and theology. You both mention hope regarding the next Pope, and of the small bits on Catholic stuff I've heard it sound like depending on who's taken office as pope some theology and doctrine are favored and others rejected to the point that it seems at least to me that the position isn't about protecting correct doctrine, but to encourage their own theological stance. This might have nothing to do with the station of being pope, as much as just being Human and not being perfect, but it is an observation none the less from an outsider to the CC.

One other part that I don't know about is the relationship between the Pope and the magistrate. Is it that the Pope heads the magistrate or takes part in the magistrate? The difference being that if consoles of bishops, cardinals, or elders has much of a say when it comes to discussing issues in faith or in ministry, or if the magistrate are there to send out the message from the pope instead of come together and work out the issues.

There's a few other things but I think if I say too much it'll seem like I have an issue with the Catholic Church and want to vent them all out here. The truth is that I don't have anything to correct or confirm the ideas for the CC or ideas against them. It's all fair game which makes it all just as unreliable for tending what is true or even what is accurate. With that in mind I've one more question to present. That is: why is the seat of Rome in Rome? Why isn't the seat of the Pope in the Middle East?

Recently I read a book titled "A Biography of Bethlehem." The book was a history of the town as much as the author could find and discuss. Because of the nature of the town having very little record of it's history throughout history, a big part of the book was also about big events that affected Israel. One of these events described was a conflict between western Christianity and Middle Eastern Christianity. And the seat of the Church wasn't always in Rome. As the author puts it the seat of the pope moved to Rome. Which caused a rift between two groups of Christians. Those that started and stayed in the Middle East (with their leaders, theology, and political influences) against those who were far away (with their own leaders, theology, and political influences. According to the book that change in where the decisions and consoles were made changed outlooks and favored one theology over another, as well as grew more and more distant from Israel/Palestine leaving their troubles and concerns behind. Possible being a factor in the split between the Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox.

The author, I found by reading the book, is a Palestinian historian. He isn't Catholic, and might not even be Christian. And some of what he said regarding other historians has lead me to question historians as a whole, him included. But regardless not favoring his conclusions or favoring the Catholic Church's history conclusions leaves a vacuume of questions without a reliable answer on my own.

One of those questions that I gained from that book is why the position of Pope moved to Rome. (Or if it was moved at all).

Sorry for the long explanation and question. But I thought the explanation was needed for questioning further the answer that Rome was selected because of Peter ending up in Rome.
Hi NNS...
Just so you know, I've just read the above.
No problem..all could be answered.

It's still dinner clean up time here-
Catch you later....
 
To wondering and Walpole.

Thank you both for answering my question. There are a few things that are off still, (at least for me and my understanding). I don't have much arguments for or against anything regarding the pope as a station of the church, but there are several things that without any knowledge of church history as a foundation creates a feeling that something is off.

The first part is about the Pope acting as a protector of correct doctrine and theology. You both mention hope regarding the next Pope, and of the small bits on Catholic stuff I've heard it sound like depending on who's taken office as pope some theology and doctrine are favored and others rejected to the point that it seems at least to me that the position isn't about protecting correct doctrine, but to encourage their own theological stance. This might have nothing to do with the station of being pope, as much as just being Human and not being perfect, but it is an observation none the less from an outsider to the CC.
Hi NNS...
Sorry for delay.

You're right. Every Pope brings with him what HE believes.
This is rather difficult to explain.....He sets the stage. Much like the American President does.
He is not SUPPOSED to change doctrine...however this does happen.

For instance, THIS pope has change a doctrine of the church but he will not state so and has left much confusion in the church. In his papal exortation Amoris Laetitia, from 2016, after the Synod of 2015 (I might be off by a year) he states that it is NOW acceptable for certain remarrieds to receive communion. This has caused quite a stir and has been challenged by many bishops...which, if you remember, make up the Magesterum.
Also, some Popes have CONFIRMED what had been, to that point, only discussed in the church. For instance, In 1954 the Pope of that time made it church doc trine that Mary went bodily into heaven....the assumption.

One other part that I don't know about is the relationship between the Pope and the magistrate. Is it that the Pope heads the magistrate or takes part in the magistrate? The difference being that if consoles of bishops, cardinals, or elders has much of a say when it comes to discussing issues in faith or in ministry, or if the magistrate are there to send out the message from the pope instead of come together and work out the issues.
They're supposed to come together and work out the issues.
However, as we've seen above,,,the Pope has much power behind him. It is indeed like the Presidency.

This whole issue with remarrieds has been interesting to watch and shows the power the Pope has even though he is only a PART of the Magesterum.

There's a few other things but I think if I say too much it'll seem like I have an issue with the Catholic Church and want to vent them all out here. The truth is that I don't have anything to correct or confirm the ideas for the CC or ideas against them. It's all fair game which makes it all just as unreliable for tending what is true or even what is accurate. With that in mind I've one more question to present. That is: why is the seat of Rome in Rome? Why isn't the seat of the Pope in the Middle East?
This goes to history and you can learn much from online.
After the fall of Jerusalem, that part of the world lost much of its tranditions...as you must surely know. For instance, the temple was destroyed and there were no more sacrifices.

Also at that time, the "Christians" were no longer welcomed by the "Jews" of the O.T. A split had become real and they were no longer welcomed in the synagogues --- which until then they had been.

The power was in Rome because the Roman Empire was in force.

It's interesting that you mentioned the Middle East, becasuse in about the year 1,000, as you might know...the orthodox church split from the catholic church due to issues with the papacy.
Quite simply, the power was in Rome...Peter had been in Rome...Clement then became "Pope"...and so forth.

Recently I read a book titled "A Biography of Bethlehem." The book was a history of the town as much as the author could find and discuss. Because of the nature of the town having very little record of it's history throughout history, a big part of the book was also about big events that affected Israel. One of these events described was a conflict between western Christianity and Middle Eastern Christianity. And the seat of the Church wasn't always in Rome. As the author puts it the seat of the pope moved to Rome. Which caused a rift between two groups of Christians. Those that started and stayed in the Middle East (with their leaders, theology, and political influences) against those who were far away (with their own leaders, theology, and political influences. According to the book that change in where the decisions and consoles were made changed outlooks and favored one theology over another, as well as grew more and more distant from Israel/Palestine leaving their troubles and concerns behind. Possible being a factor in the split between the Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox.
I have no reason to doubt a scholar,,,I just do not remember the CENTER OF CHRISTIANITY being anywhere else.
There were other IMPORTANT BISHOPS, as I've stated...
in Antioch, Alexandria, jerusalem, Rome and Constantinople.
Does he mention that the first official pope was declared in the 600's??

The author, I found by reading the book, is a Palestinian historian. He isn't Catholic, and might not even be Christian. And some of what he said regarding other historians has lead me to question historians as a whole, him included. But regardless not favoring his conclusions or favoring the Catholic Church's history conclusions leaves a vacuume of questions without a reliable answer on my own.
What is the vacuum?
If you read the history of the CC, it'll clearly say that the first Pope was Peter...but this is not true historically...
Read history that is not biased.

One of those questions that I gained from that book is why the position of Pope moved to Rome. (Or if it was moved at all).

Sorry for the long explanation and question. But I thought the explanation was needed for questioning further the answer that Rome was selected because of Peter ending up in Rome.

Again, I just have never read about this.
The papacy was centered in Avignon in Southern France, but that was in the middle ages and not what we're discussing.

Let me see if I could find something....


See Byzantine Papacy---but it does not seem it was cenetered there.



 
Tell me what rules they follow.
Are they not the rules of Muhammad?
Do YOU follow the rules of a man for your salvation...
or the rules of God?

Muslims do not consider Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be the Exalted...nor do they worship him. He is a prophet of God (Exalted is He); as was Abraham, Moses, David, Issac, and Yeshua (may peace be upon them all). Muslims follow what they consider to be the Exalted's message, as revealed in the Qur'an, and in the Scriptures given to the prophets who came before their own. I do not expect you to believe as they do - as I do - after all, you are not a Muslim. It is what it is.

May the Exalted bless you - and all you love - and bring all to Himself.
 
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Muslims do not consider Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be the Exalted...nor do they worship him. He is a prophet of God (Exalted is He); as was Abraham, Moses, David, Issac, and Yeshua (may peace be upon them all). Muslims follow what they consider to be the Exalted's message, as revealed in the Qur'an, and in the Scriptures given to the prophets who came before their own. I do not expect you to believe as they do - as I do - after all, you are not a Muslim. It is what it is.

May the Exalted bless you - and all you love - and bring all to Himself.
Of course I don't believe as they do...I'm Christian.

Jesus did not say He was a prophet...it seems to me that He was a representation of God on earth...as God's Son, who existed forever with God the Almighty.

So we Christians follow Christ...we feel we are following God Himself.

You, on the other hand, are following the written rules of Muhammad.....IF you are truly Muslim, you know very well that I'm speaking the truth.

IF you respected the New Testament then you would have believed the Apostle John when he stated that no words could bed added or taken away from the book of Revelation.

NO NEW revelation should be expected from God.
Since Muhammad was born 600 years after John and Jesus died...
I would call that new revelation.

Please tell me who the INFIDEL are?
Please quote the Qur'an.

Thanks.
 
.......................

You write:

‘Please tell me who the INFIDEL are? Please quote the Qur'an.’

The word ‘infidel’ was coined in the mid-15th century. It is derived from the Middle French ‘infidèle’, or Latin ‘īnfidēlis’; meaning ‘not faithful’; and was used by Christians to denote anyone who was not of that Faith (in practice, Jews and Muslims). The word does not exist in classical Arabic, and is not found in the Qur’an.

‘Infidel’ is sometimes used (incorrectly) to render the Qur’anic word ‘kafir’; a word derived from the root K-F-R (kafara); one meaning of which is ‘to cover’ or ‘to conceal’:

'Bear in mind that the present life is just a game, a diversion, an attraction, a cause of boasting among you, of rivalry in wealth and children. It is like plants that spring up after the rain: their growth at first delights the sowers (‘l-kufāra’), but then you see them wither away, turn yellow, and become stubble. There is terrible punishment in the next life as well as forgiveness and approval from God; the life of this world is only an illusory pleasure.’ (Al-Hadid: 20).

A sower covers the seed at planting time; and because of this may be called (without any pejorative implication) a ‘kafir’ – ‘one who covers’.

Kufr becomes a sin when a believer (Jew, Christian or Muslim) deliberately buries – in her heart – what she knows to be true, in order to disobey. ‘I know I shouldn’t do this, but I’m going to do it anyway….just for now……it’ll be alright.’

John Calvin captures the meaning of ‘kufr’ (in this context) when he writes:

‘I say, therefore, that he sins against the Holy Spirit who, while so constrained by the power of divine truth that he cannot plead ignorance, yet deliberately resists, and that merely for the sake of resisting.’ (‘Institutes of the Christian Religion; Book 3; Chapter 3; Section 22).

The word ‘kafir’ is also used to denote one who is ungrateful; one who refuses to acknowledge favours given by their Lord:

‘And so Moses said to his people, ‘Remember God’s blessing on you when He saved you from Pharaoh’s people, who were inflicting terrible suffering on you, slaughtering your sons and sparing only your women – that was a severe test from your Lord! Remember that He promised, “If you are grateful, I will give you more, but if you are ungrateful (‘kafartum’), My punishment is terrible indeed.” ’ And Moses said, ‘Even if you, together with everybody else on earth, are ungrateful, God is self-sufficient, worthy of all praise.’ (Ibrahim: 6-8).

Puritan Muslims use ‘kafir’ as a term of abuse; applying it especially to Christians and Jews. This is not correct. Indeed, according to the Encyclopedia of Islam, a Muslim commits an offence if he accuses a Christian or a Jew of unbelief (cf. Encyclopedia of Islam: second edition).

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) refers to Christian and Jews as ‘Ahl al-kitab’ (the ‘People of the Book’ – an honorific title). This is what He has to say about them:

‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. God is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8).

Puritans claim that these verses have been abrogated by the following:

‘If anyone seeks a religion other than complete devotion to God, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’ (Al‘Imran: 85).

The words ‘complete devotion’ are a rendition of ‘islam’; a word that is never capitalised in Arabic. This word can also be rendered ‘submission’.

Puritans take the word ‘religion’, and then capitalise ‘islam’; giving the impression that the verse refers to that particular Faith alone. They argue that Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). At the same time, they claim (correctly) that Islam is not merely a ‘religion’, but a way of life. But so are Christianity and Judaism (and all other religions, too, of course). And the best ‘way of life’ is one spent in complete devotion to God.

Al‘Imran: 85 can safely be rendered: ‘If anyone seeks a way of life other than complete devotion to God it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’

Consider again:

‘Those (Christians and Jews) who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever.’ This is Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s solemn promise. It has not been abrogated, since He does not renege on His promises.

One who knows little or nothing of Islam; or who has only a distorted understanding of that religion; or who – in all good conscience – cannot accept its teachings, may not be called a ‘kafir’. They are not rejecting Islam merely for the sake of rejecting.

Those who refer to Christians or Jews as ‘disbelievers’ are confronted by this:

A Muslim man is not permitted to marry a disbeliever. He is, however, permitted to marry a Christian or Jewish woman; moreover, she has the absolute – and unbreakable – right, not only to retain her Faith, but to practise it. My wife, for example, is a Catholic.

I hope this answers your question.

May the Exalted continue to bless you.
 
You write:

‘Please tell me who the INFIDEL are? Please quote the Qur'an.’

The word ‘infidel’ was coined in the mid-15th century. It is derived from the Middle French ‘infidèle’, or Latin ‘īnfidēlis’; meaning ‘not faithful’; and was used by Christians to denote anyone who was not of that Faith (in practice, Jews and Muslims). The word does not exist in classical Arabic, and is not found in the Qur’an.

‘Infidel’ is sometimes used (incorrectly) to render the Qur’anic word ‘kafir’; a word derived from the root K-F-R (kafara); one meaning of which is ‘to cover’ or ‘to conceal’:

'Bear in mind that the present life is just a game, a diversion, an attraction, a cause of boasting among you, of rivalry in wealth and children. It is like plants that spring up after the rain: their growth at first delights the sowers (‘l-kufāra’), but then you see them wither away, turn yellow, and become stubble. There is terrible punishment in the next life as well as forgiveness and approval from God; the life of this world is only an illusory pleasure.’ (Al-Hadid: 20).

A sower covers the seed at planting time; and because of this may be called (without any pejorative implication) a ‘kafir’ – ‘one who covers’.

Kufr becomes a sin when a believer (Jew, Christian or Muslim) deliberately buries – in her heart – what she knows to be true, in order to disobey. ‘I know I shouldn’t do this, but I’m going to do it anyway….just for now……it’ll be alright.’

John Calvin captures the meaning of ‘kufr’ (in this context) when he writes:

‘I say, therefore, that he sins against the Holy Spirit who, while so constrained by the power of divine truth that he cannot plead ignorance, yet deliberately resists, and that merely for the sake of resisting.’ (‘Institutes of the Christian Religion; Book 3; Chapter 3; Section 22).

The word ‘kafir’ is also used to denote one who is ungrateful; one who refuses to acknowledge favours given by their Lord:

‘And so Moses said to his people, ‘Remember God’s blessing on you when He saved you from Pharaoh’s people, who were inflicting terrible suffering on you, slaughtering your sons and sparing only your women – that was a severe test from your Lord! Remember that He promised, “If you are grateful, I will give you more, but if you are ungrateful (‘kafartum’), My punishment is terrible indeed.” ’ And Moses said, ‘Even if you, together with everybody else on earth, are ungrateful, God is self-sufficient, worthy of all praise.’ (Ibrahim: 6-8).

Puritan Muslims use ‘kafir’ as a term of abuse; applying it especially to Christians and Jews. This is not correct. Indeed, according to the Encyclopedia of Islam, a Muslim commits an offence if he accuses a Christian or a Jew of unbelief (cf. Encyclopedia of Islam: second edition).

Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) refers to Christian and Jews as ‘Ahl al-kitab’ (the ‘People of the Book’ – an honorific title). This is what He has to say about them:

‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. God is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8).

Puritans claim that these verses have been abrogated by the following:

‘If anyone seeks a religion other than complete devotion to God, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’ (Al‘Imran: 85).

The words ‘complete devotion’ are a rendition of ‘islam’; a word that is never capitalised in Arabic. This word can also be rendered ‘submission’.

Puritans take the word ‘religion’, and then capitalise ‘islam’; giving the impression that the verse refers to that particular Faith alone. They argue that Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla). At the same time, they claim (correctly) that Islam is not merely a ‘religion’, but a way of life. But so are Christianity and Judaism (and all other religions, too, of course). And the best ‘way of life’ is one spent in complete devotion to God.

Al‘Imran: 85 can safely be rendered: ‘If anyone seeks a way of life other than complete devotion to God it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter.’

Consider again:

‘Those (Christians and Jews) who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever.’ This is Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s solemn promise. It has not been abrogated, since He does not renege on His promises.

One who knows little or nothing of Islam; or who has only a distorted understanding of that religion; or who – in all good conscience – cannot accept its teachings, may not be called a ‘kafir’. They are not rejecting Islam merely for the sake of rejecting.

Those who refer to Christians or Jews as ‘disbelievers’ are confronted by this:

A Muslim man is not permitted to marry a disbeliever. He is, however, permitted to marry a Christian or Jewish woman; moreover, she has the absolute – and unbreakable – right, not only to retain her Faith, but to practise it. My wife, for example, is a Catholic.

I hope this answers your question.

May the Exalted continue to bless you.
I didn't have a question.
I was making a statement.

The statement was that Islam teaches that the infidel re to be killed. Who are the infidel was my rhetorical questions.

Unbelievers and idolaters. And who would these be: Those against Islam.

Following are some articles from Google that explain what infidels are...it seems to vary from what you say, althought this does not mean that you are not correct...just that you would need to post some support for your view.







Regarding the first article,,,the very fact alone that Muhammad wanted all NON - BELIEVERS and non supporters of Islam killed shows that it is a violent religion, as was Muhammad a violent person.

I believe the above links are very fair and explain the Qur'an verses very well.
 
..........................

Hello again.

I refer to the first article you cited; the one that – according to you – shows that ‘Muhammad wanted all NON - BELIEVERS and non supporters of Islam killed’. It is entitled ‘Does the Quran Really Sacntion Violence Against “Unbelievers”’; and was written by Kabir Helminski, a ‘Sufi Teacher, author, activist’. I reproduce it here (my emphasis throughout):

‘Recently some prominent talk-show hosts, Sean Hannity among them, have been referring to certain verses in the Quran that appear to call for Muslims to kill non-Muslims. These verses have too often been quoted with what appears to be a willful disregard for the context in which they occur, thus inflaming the emotions of listeners, perpetuating grave misunderstandings, and contributing to the potential for violence on all sides.

‘Though we may not be able to influence those who are hell-bent on hatred, an explanation is owed to all reasonable people who are interested in the truth of the matter and are not looking to create enemies. The vast majority of Muslims deserve to be seen as allies in a common quest for social justice and human dignity — assuming, of course, that we as Americans have the same goals in mind.

‘A careful and unbiased study of these and other verses, in their proper context, will reveal that the exhortations to fight “idolaters” and “unbelievers” are specific in nature and are not general injunctions for the murder of all those who refuse to accept Islam as their way of life.

‘Among the most often cited verses is this one: “Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and capture them, and blockade them, and watch for them at every lookout...” (Quran 9:5).’

‘According to Islamic belief, the Quran was “revealed” to Muhammad in a process of dialog with the Divine, and some parts of the Quran refer to specific situations, while other parts offer universal spiritual principles. To understand this passage, we must take into account the historical circumstances at the time of its revelation.

‘The “idolaters” (Arabic: mushrikeen) were those Meccan “pagans” who had declared war against Muhammad and his community. The Meccan oligarchs fought against the Prophet’s message from the very beginning. When they realized that the flow of converts to Islam was increasing, they resorted to violent oppression and torture of the Prophet and his followers. The Prophet himself survived several assassination attempts, and it became so dangerous for the Muslims in Mecca that Muhammad sent some of his companions who lacked tribal protection to take asylum in the Christian kingdom of Abyssinia. After 13 years of violence, he himself was compelled to take refuge in the city of Medina, and even then the Meccans did not relent in their hostilities. Eventually, various hostile Arab tribes joined in the fight against the Muslims, culminating in the Battle of the Trench, when 10,000 soldiers from many Arab tribes gathered to wipe out the Muslim community once and for all. As we know, the Muslims survived these challenges and eventually went on to establish a vast civilization.

‘At the time Verse 9:5 was revealed, Muhammad and his followers had begun to establish themselves securely. They had returned triumphantly to Mecca without violence, most Meccans themselves had become Muslims, and many of the surrounding pagan Arab tribes had also accepted Islam and sent delegations to the Prophet pledging their allegiance to him. Those that did not establish peace with the Muslims were the bitterest of enemies, and it was against these remaining hostile forces that the verse commands the Prophet to fight.

‘The verses that come immediately before 9:5 state, “Those with whom you have treaties are immune from attack.” It further states, “Fulfill your treaties with them to the end of their term, for God loves the conscientious.” Now, in its proper context, verse 9:5 can be properly understood.

‘This was a guidance to the Prophet at that specific time to fight those idolaters who, as 9:4 mentions, violated their treaty obligations and helped others fight against the Muslims. It is not a general command to attack all non-Muslims, and it has never signified this to the overwhelming majority of Muslims throughout history.
Had it been so, then every year, after the “sacred months are past,” (The “sacred months” are four months out of the year during which fighting is not allowed) history would have witnessed Muslims attacking every non-Muslim in sight. This yearly slaughter never occurred. Though the present verse is only one example, none of the Quranic verses that mention fighting justify aggression nor propose attacking anyone because of their religious beliefs. Nor were forced conversions recognized as valid under Islamic law.

‘The fundamental Quranic principle is that fighting is allowed only in self-defense, and it is only against those who actively fight against you. Indeed, Islam is a religion that seeks to maximize peace and reconciliation. Yet, Islam is not a pacifist religion; it does accept the premise that, from time to time and as a last resort, arms must be taken up in a just war.

‘If the enemy inclines toward peace, however, Muslims must follow suit: “But if they stop, God is most forgiving, most merciful” (2:192). Also read: “Now if they incline toward peace, then incline to it, and place your trust in God, for God is the all-hearing, the all-knowing” (8:61).'

Comment:

Verse 9:5 is the so-called ‘Sword Verse’ (an ironic title, since the word ‘sword’ does not occur in the Qur’an).

Since the tenth century certain Islamic scholars have claimed that this verse abrogated many Qur’anic verses, including all those that permit Muslims to deal fairly towards non-Muslims, and to live peacefully with them.

Salah Al-Ansari and Usama Hasan write:

‘The Shafi’i school; certain Hanbali jurists; and Ibn Hazm argued that Muslims are permitted to initiate war against unbelievers if they refuse to accept Islam or surrender to Muslim rule by paying the poll-tax (jizyah).

‘The majority of the jurists, including Ibn Taymiyya and Ibn al-Qayyim, criticized Shāfi‛ī’s claim that the Qur’ānic texts 9:5 and 9:29 abrogated all other Islamic texts on war. Ibn Taymiyya based his criticism on textual and rational arguments. He stated that the abrogation of a passage can only take place when there is text to support the claim, and as long as there is no evidence to suggest that passages 9:5 and 9:29 abrogated Qur’an 2:190, it cannot be deemed to be true. This is further supported by the view of Umar b. 'Abd al‘Aziz and Ikrima. Rationally, Ibn Taymiyya argued that Qur’an 2:190 advocated an everlasting Qur’anic principle regarding the prohibition of performing acts of injustice and aggression, and these meanings cannot be claimed to be abrogated.’ (‘Tackling Terror – A Response to Takfiri Terrorist Theology’).

This is not the place to discuss the topic of abrogation itself; but it is necessary to highlight the fundamental problems that arise when applying this concept to verse 5.

Are we to believe that verse 5 has abrogated the verses that came immediately before it, and the ones that came immediately after it? Utter twaddle!

Louay Fatoohi writes:

‘Muslims were commanded to forgive the polytheists, live with them in peace if the latter honored peace, and forgive and consider them brothers if they convert to Islam (9.11). God then emphasizes that the aim of fighting the heads of disbelief is to make them desist and establish peace (9.12).

‘Finally, verse 9.13 urges the Muslims to fight aggression, reminding them of the background of the conflict with the disbelievers. First, it was the polytheists who broke the treaty they had with the Muslims. Second, like the Meccans who forced the Prophet to immigrate to Medina, the polytheists were trying to expel him from Medina. Third, it was the polytheists who attacked the Muslims first.’ (‘Abrogation in the Qur'an and Islamic Law’).

Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘Any revelation We cause to be superseded…..We replace with something better or similar. Do you (Prophet) not know that Allāh has power over everything?’ (Al-Baqara 106).

Those who argue that Al-Tawba 5 has abrogated all verses that require Muslims to refrain from aggressive violence (terrorism), and to live peacefully with those who live peacefully with them, must answer the question: In what way is murder better than co-operation; war better than peace; love better than hate?

The article continues:

‘How then do we explain the early spread of Islam through military conquest? In the two decades following the death of Muhammad, Muslim armies challenged and largely overcame the world’s two greatest powers, the Persian and Byzantine empires. Were these conquests truly justifiable according to the Quranic principles outlined above? It is a complex question and not one to be readily answered within the limits of a blog post such as this.’

Comment: It is my belief that these conquests were not ‘truly justifiable according to Quranic principles’, since the Qur’an forbids aggressive warfare. Only defensive warfare is permissible; and only then according to well defined constraints.
 
The article continues:

‘It deserves to be understood, however, that the Muslims fought imperial armies, not civilians, and were forbidden to harm non-combatants or destroy property. Islam guaranteed religious freedom for Christians, Jews, and other minority sects, even while they obliged these “protected” minorities to pay a small tax in exchange for being absolved from military service.’

Comment: This is a reference to the so-called ‘Jizya Verse’.

It is important to note that the following non-Muslims were exempted from paying the tax (around 1 dinar a year): women; children; the elderly; the handicapped; the sick; monks; hermits; slaves; and the insane. Non-Muslim foreigners, whose residence in a Muslim State was temporary, were also exempt. Non-Muslims who elected to join the State’s armed forces were also exempt.

This verse does not address all Jews and Christians, but only their young men of military age.

Continued:

‘Now 14 centuries have passed, and it needs to be recognized that the Quran does not have an inherent, built-in agenda for aggression or domination. The vast majority of Muslims are content to live and let live. In fact, that is part of their religion. Relations with other religious communities are based on acceptance and encouragement to follow the best of your own religion:

‘To each community among you has been prescribed a Law and a way of life. If God had so willed He would have made you a single people, but His plan is to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you differ. (5:48)’

‘And Muslims believe that the God of Islam is not other than the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus and that the diversity of religions is according to Divine plan:

“Truly those who keep the faith, and the Jews, and the
Christians, and the Sabaeans — whoever believes in God and the Last Day and performs virtuous deeds — surely their reward is with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, neither shall they grieve.” (2:62)

‘Perhaps these verses help to explain why in the city of Jerusalem, which has been ruled by Muslims for most of the last 13 centuries, the sacred sites of Jews and Christians have been protected, and those communities themselves have for the most part been able to live in peace together with Muslims. The assertion that Islam or the Quran inherently call for a “war on unbelievers” is sheer fallacy and fantasy. Peace be with you.’

That you have cited – and condemned – an article that clearly does not support your argument is very telling. I wonder if you truly understand what I – and the author of this article – have written?

If you continue to insist that the Qur'an calls for the killing of non-Muslims simply for being non-Muslims, then all you need do is cite the verses that - in your opinion - support your argument. God willing, I will do my best to show that they do not. Others can decide for themselves where the truth lies.

Peace.
 
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To Niblo,

Thank you for expaining some of these issues with us concerning Islamic views on violence. However there is one more issue I have on these things. They aren't with Qur'an verses (I don't know any) but with what we see in the world by violent Muslims.

Not long ago I heard about a study claiming that world wide Christians are the most perscuted population. And on reading the article though persecution existed in non Muslim countries, the numbers for violence and persecution were the highest in Islamic countries. This follows some other news I've heard regarding Islamic persecution directed towards my father's faith (he is a Baha'i), which shows in practice Islam is not kind or fair to other religions. But instead leans towards persecution and violence. Even among it's own there is great amounts of violence. Otherwise what can be said of the Syrian civil war that continues on, and the issues with violence in countries that accepted refugees from Islamic war torn countries.

The last observation is one that I just don't understand. For many years now the violence I see among different religions has some kind of reaction by those in that religion. A sorrow for the violence that is done in that religion's name and a condemned message for that kind of violence. However through the years, hearing different extreemists in Islam kill in the name of Islam does not have the same reaction from Muslims to condemn the acts and speak out against them. Instead there is usually silence from the Muslim communities in the world about the events, or there is praise for those acts of murder and terrorism.

In practice I don't see Islam as peaceful, but instead it becomes something to remain watchful towards, like a panther that lives in the woods. Keep an eye on it for your own safety kind of thing.
 
The article continues:

‘It deserves to be understood, however, that the Muslims fought imperial armies, not civilians, and were forbidden to harm non-combatants or destroy property. Islam guaranteed religious freedom for Christians, Jews, and other minority sects, even while they obliged these “protected” minorities to pay a small tax in exchange for being absolved from military service.’

Comment: This is a reference to the so-called ‘Jizya Verse’.

It is important to note that the following non-Muslims were exempted from paying the tax (around 1 dinar a year): women; children; the elderly; the handicapped; the sick; monks; hermits; slaves; and the insane. Non-Muslim foreigners, whose residence in a Muslim State was temporary, were also exempt. Non-Muslims who elected to join the State’s armed forces were also exempt.

This verse does not address all Jews and Christians, but only their young men of military age.

Continued:

‘Now 14 centuries have passed, and it needs to be recognized that the Quran does not have an inherent, built-in agenda for aggression or domination. The vast majority of Muslims are content to live and let live. In fact, that is part of their religion. Relations with other religious communities are based on acceptance and encouragement to follow the best of your own religion:

‘To each community among you has been prescribed a Law and a way of life. If God had so willed He would have made you a single people, but His plan is to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you differ. (5:48)’

‘And Muslims believe that the God of Islam is not other than the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus and that the diversity of religions is according to Divine plan:

“Truly those who keep the faith, and the Jews, and the
Christians, and the Sabaeans — whoever believes in God and the Last Day and performs virtuous deeds — surely their reward is with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, neither shall they grieve.” (2:62)

‘Perhaps these verses help to explain why in the city of Jerusalem, which has been ruled by Muslims for most of the last 13 centuries, the sacred sites of Jews and Christians have been protected, and those communities themselves have for the most part been able to live in peace together with Muslims. The assertion that Islam or the Quran inherently call for a “war on unbelievers” is sheer fallacy and fantasy. Peace be with you.’

That you have cited – and condemned – an article that clearly does not support your argument is very telling. I wonder if you truly understand what I – and the author of this article – have written?

If you continue to insist that the Qur'an calls for the killing of non-Muslims simply for being non-Muslims, then all you need do is cite the verses that - in your opinion - support your argument. God willing, I will do my best to show that they do not. Others can decide for themselves where the truth lies.

Peace.
Why are your posts so long?
Does it take that much to convince someone?

The article states that non-believers and idolaters are to be killed.
Since America has been called SATAN by those who practice Islam,,,I'd say that this would mean that we are UNBELIEVERS of Muhammad.

Since there is ONLY ONE GOD,,,,and muslims do not feel they are my brothers,,,I'd say they are worshipping a DIFFERENT GOD...and possibly they are idolizing Muhammad...yes, that is my belief.

Since Muhammad was a violent man,,,he wrote a violent book.

And you can say peace be to me many times...but the truth is that Muslims are KILLING Christians every day in different parts of the world and it is because of ISLAM that there is NO PEACE.

If you want to discuss further, you'll have to take it in bits because I don't have hours to be on this forum.

I would like to bring to YOUR attention that CHRISTIANS are not killing anyone.....they are not cutting any throats...they are not throwing anyone off roofs, they are not crucifying children.

If you are not blind...you should be trying to convince your brethren...not us since we are doing nothing against our God.
 

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