Calvinism and the Nicene Creed

[Niblo]

.................

If you don't like what I have to say, then all you need do is open my name, and press the button marked 'Ignore'.

Peace!

 

[Niblo]

To Niblo,

The last observation is one that I just don't understand. For many years now the violence I see among different religions has some kind of reaction by those in that religion. A sorrow for the violence that is done in that religion's name and a condemned message for that kind of violence. However through the years, hearing different extremists in Islam kill in the name of Islam does not have the same reaction from Muslims to condemn the acts and speak out against them. Instead there is usually silence from the Muslim communities in the world about the events, or there is praise for those acts of murder and terrorism.

In practice I don't see Islam as peaceful, but instead it becomes something to remain watchful towards, like a panther that lives in the woods. Keep an eye on it for your own safety kind of thing.

Thank you for your input.

I was a Christian for the greater part of my (almost) 74 years. The majority of my family are Christian, including my wife. I abhor the persecution, and murder, of Christians (and of all other human beings, regardless of their Faith – or none). It saddens me (but does not surprise) that your post contains no mention of the ongoing persecution and murder of innocent Muslims; that it carries not a scintilla of regret or compassion for their suffering.

The Crown Prosecution Service (UK) defines ‘terrorism’ as:

‘The use or threat of action, both in and outside of the UK, designed to influence any international government organisation or to intimidate the public. It must also be for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause.’

The CPS offers several examples of what it defines as terrorism; these include serious violence against a person; damage to property; and endangering a person's life (other than that of the person committing the action).

The behaviour of ISIS, of Al-Qaeda and of the Nusrah Front defines, exactly, what I understand by the term ‘terrorism’.

Muhammad Asad (a former Jewish rabbi) writes of the:

‘The thousands upon thousands of Muslim ulema – traditional Islamic scholars – who refer to the (Qur’an) and other Islamic texts to argue against terrorism and wanton violence, who argue against Daesh.’ (‘Jesus, the Fake Jihadis & Evangelical Christians’).

​

In 2017, one hundred and twenty-six Islamic scholars signed an open letter to the leader of ISIS.

The letter states (my emphasis) that:

‘It is not permissible to kill any Muslim, (nor indeed any human being), who is unarmed and a non-combatant. ….Recently, Shaker Wahib – who was affiliated with what was known at the time as the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) – appeared in a YouTube video where he stopped unarmed civilians who said they were Muslims. He then proceeded to ask them the number of prostrations (rak’ahs) in specific prayers. When they answered incorrectly, he killed them. This is absolutely forbidden under Islamic Law and is a heinous crime.’

The letter goes on:

‘Regarding Arab Christians, you gave them three choices: jizyah (poll tax), the sword, or conversion to Islam. You painted their homes red, destroyed their churches, and in some cases, looted their homes and property. You killed some of them and caused many others to flee their homes with nothing but their lives and the clothes on their backs. These Christians are not combatants against Islam or transgressors against it, indeed they are friends, neighbours and co-citizens. From the legal perspective of Shari’ah they all fall under ancient agreements that are around 1400 years old, and the rulings of jihad do not apply to them. Some of their ancestors fought alongside the Prophet’s army against the Byzantines; and thus have been citizens of the State of Medina since that time. Others are under agreements that were guaranteed to them by Omar ibn Al-Khattab, Khalid ibn Al-Walid, the Umayyads, the Abbasids, the Ottomans and their respective states. In short, they are not strangers to these lands, but rather, of the native peoples of these lands from pre-Islamic times; they are not enemies but friends. For the past 1400 years they have defended their countries against the Crusaders, colonialists, Israel and other wars, how, then, can you treat them as enemies?’

The letter then quotes sūrah Al-Mumtahana:

‘Allāh may still bring about affection between you and your present enemies ‘ – Allāh is all powerful, Allāh is most forgiving and merciful – and He does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you for your faith or driven you out of your homes: Allāh loves the just.’ (verses 7-8).

And continues:

‘You fought the Yazidis under the banner of jihad but they neither fought you nor Muslims. You considered them satanists and gave them the choice to either be killed or be forced into Islam. You killed hundreds of them and buried them in mass graves. You caused the death and suffering of hundreds of others. Had it not been for American and Kurdish intervention, tens of thousands of their men, women, children and elderly would have been killed. These are all abominable crimes.’

And yet more:

‘After tying Syrian soldiers of the 17th Division in North-eastern Syria to barbed wire, you cut off their heads with knives and posted a video of this on the internet. In the video you said: “We are your brothers, the soldiers of the Islamic State. God has favoured us with His grace and victory by conquering the 17th Division; a victory and favour through God. We seek refuge in God from our might and power. We seek refuge in God from our weapons and our readiness.”

‘You thus attributed this heinous crime to God, and made as if this were an act of humility to God, by saying that He did it and not you. But God says: “And when they commit any indecency they say, “We found our fathers practising it, and God has enjoined it on us”. Say, “God does not enjoin indecency. Do you say concerning God that which you do not know?” (Al-A’raf: 28).’ (from the ‘Open Letter to Dr. Ibrahim Awwad Al-Badri, alias ‘Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi’).

The Former Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Bin Baz (an ardent Wahhabi) declared that suicide attacks are ‘evil, sinful, immoral, corrupt, oppressive and hostile’; and that those responsible for such crimes do not believe in Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) and the Last Day ‘with correct conviction.’ In his opinion, such people are: ‘Indulged in the lewdness of the spirit, corruption of the self and envy.’ (referenced in ‘ISIS - DAESH a Catastrophe and a Tribulation’; by Syed Hussain bin Osman Madani, and reviewed by Shaykh Abdullah Taha Madani).

Syed Hussain bin Osman Madani writes:

‘Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Ramzan Al-Hajari (may Allah preserve him), Lecturer by Royal Commission Al-Jubail, Eastern Province Saudi Arabia said that Daesh and Nusrah Front are not upon truth.

‘He further said that there are no ‘Ulama (scholars) with this organisation, rather all of them are imprudent and foolish…………a bloodthirsty and savage organisation, which is not only a danger for Muslims, but rather the whole humanity. Furthermore, he said that to warn against the perpetuators of mischief and tribulations and to disgrace them is an extremely high level of Jihad.

‘According to Al-Hajari, approximately one thousand and fifty Indian scholars have issued a Fatwa stating that ISIS is un-Islamic; and that therefore: ‘The scholars from all around the world should disseminate awareness against this terrorist organisation by any possible means.’ This Fatwa was signed by one thousand and seventy religious organisations, and copies sent to fifty countries.’

‘After having known the opinion of the Indian scholars towards Daesh, it is appropriate to get ourselves acquainted with what the Muslim leadership has to say about it too. The senior Barrister, Janab Asad-ud-Deen Owaisi, President of AIMIM, and Member of Parliament in India, gave this message to 180 million Muslims that Daesh are Khawaarij, who are dogs of Hellfire, adulterers, murderers and worthy of condemnation. He also advised the youth to remain close with the ‘Ulama, and prevent themselves from visiting the terrorist websites, and consider seeking knowledge, eradication of poverty and serving one’s parents to be Jihad in the current times.

‘The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh ‘Abdul ‘Azeez Aal Ash-Sheikh (may Allah preserve him) said that organisations like Al-Qaeda and Daesh are Khawaarij, amongst whom extremism, severity, rigidness, mischief and terrorism are found. Moreover, they are the first enemies of Islam, who slaughter the Muslims to begin with. Thus, these organisations have nothing to do with Islam. In fact they are outside the Deen.’ (‘ISIS - DAESH a Catastrophe and a Tribulation’).

(Continued)​

 

[Niblo]

Abdullah Bin Bayyah, arguably the most prominent orthodox Sunni scholar of Islamic jurisprudence (and followed by thousands of scholars around the world) has issued a fatwa against Daesh (cf. ‘This is not the Path to Paradise: Response to ISIS’).

Classical Sunni scholar, Hamza Yusuf, among the most senior American Muslim scholar, speaks in detail against Daesh in his ‘The Crisis of ISIS: A Prophetic Predication.’

Detailed collection of statements against Daesh by Sunni, Shia and Salafi ulema from around the world have been collected by the Wilson Centre. (cf. ‘Muslims Against ISIS, Part 1: Clerics & Scholars’).

Shaykh Muhammad Al-Yaqoubi (a Sufi), among the most prominent classically trained Sunni Muslim scholars, with thousands of followers throughout the globe, has also issued a lengthy Fatwa against ISIS, declaring them to be Khawarij and, as such, outside the fold of Islam. According to the Shaykh, Muslims have a duty to fight ISIS, and to destroy them. (see his book: ‘Refuting ISIS’).

Muhammad Asad writes:

‘Simply put, every Muslim scholar - whether Sunni, Shia, Salafi, Deobandi - has condemned and spoken out against Daesh. Their arguments against Daesh and its acts are derived from traditional Islamic religious texts and based firmly in Islamic jurisprudence.’ (‘Jesus, the Fake Jihadis & Evangelical Christians’).

How come certain folk are ignorant of these condemnations? Is it because the news media that they rely upon has chosen not to select them for broadcast or discussion? Is it because they have made no effort to discover – and to read – these condemnations for themselves? Is it because truth cannot be permitted to stand in the way of a cherished prejudice?

I would ask you to consider the following. They are not mere rules; they are the Laws of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) – and any Muslim who breaks them, or who – being a commander – permits others to break them, will be held accountable on the Day of Judgement:

It is forbidden to start – or to participate in – a war of aggression.

It is forbidden to harm, in any way, non-combatants; women; children; the old; the sick; and those enemy combatants who no longer wish to fight, or who are prisoners of war.

It is forbidden to destroy property; homes; churches; synagogues; mosques; and so on.

It is forbidden to destroy crops or livestock, or to poison water supplies.

Please allow these Laws to soak into you; and then ask yourself: What would the world be like if they were written into the Constitution of every nation state; and into the Standing Orders of every soldier, marine, airman (or woman) and sailor; and not just written down, but complied with….from this very day, and for all time?

Ask yourself: What would the world be like if every person – every person, mind you – refused to act aggressively towards another; refused to harm another in any way whatsoever; refused to steal or destroy the property of another?

May the Exalted continue to bless both you, and your family.

 

[GodsGrace]

Abdullah Bin Bayyah, arguably the most prominent orthodox Sunni scholar of Islamic jurisprudence (and followed by thousands of scholars around the world) has issued a fatwa against Daesh (cf. ‘This is not the Path to Paradise: Response to ISIS’).

Classical Sunni scholar, Hamza Yusuf, among the most senior American Muslim scholar, speaks in detail against Daesh in his ‘The Crisis of ISIS: A Prophetic Predication.’

Detailed collection of statements against Daesh by Sunni, Shia and Salafi ulema from around the world have been collected by the Wilson Centre. (cf. ‘Muslims Against ISIS, Part 1: Clerics & Scholars’).

Shaykh Muhammad Al-Yaqoubi (a Sufi), among the most prominent classically trained Sunni Muslim scholars, with thousands of followers throughout the globe, has also issued a lengthy Fatwa against ISIS, declaring them to be Khawarij and, as such, outside the fold of Islam. According to the Shaykh, Muslims have a duty to fight ISIS, and to destroy them. (see his book: ‘Refuting ISIS’).

Muhammad Asad writes:

‘Simply put, every Muslim scholar - whether Sunni, Shia, Salafi, Deobandi - has condemned and spoken out against Daesh. Their arguments against Daesh and its acts are derived from traditional Islamic religious texts and based firmly in Islamic jurisprudence.’ (‘Jesus, the Fake Jihadis & Evangelical Christians’).

How come certain folk are ignorant of these condemnations? Is it because the news media that they rely upon has chosen not to select them for broadcast or discussion? Is it because they have made no effort to discover – and to read – these condemnations for themselves? Is it because truth cannot be permitted to stand in the way of a cherished prejudice?

I would ask you to consider the following. They are not mere rules; they are the Laws of Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) – and any Muslim who breaks them, or who – being a commander – permits others to break them, will be held accountable on the Day of Judgement:

It is forbidden to start – or to participate in – a war of aggression.

It is forbidden to harm, in any way, non-combatants; women; children; the old; the sick; and those enemy combatants who no longer wish to fight, or who are prisoners of war.

It is forbidden to destroy property; homes; churches; synagogues; mosques; and so on.

It is forbidden to destroy crops or livestock, or to poison water supplies.

Please allow these Laws to soak into you; and then ask yourself: What would the world be like if they were written into the Constitution of every nation state; and into the Standing Orders of every soldier, marine, airman (or woman) and sailor; and not just written down, but complied with….from this very day, and for all time?

Ask yourself: What would the world be like if every person – every person, mind you – refused to act aggressively towards another; refused to harm another in any way whatsoever; refused to steal or destroy the property of another?

1. You really write a lot and this makes it diffiult to reply to you.
2. Your last 2 paragraphs are interesting...unfortunately we are born with the sin nature, which you should know since you were Christian. Are you a Muslim now?

Many Muslims are becoming Christian because they see how imprisoned they are by Islam.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm an adult person and do not need to put you or anybody else on ignore.

I didn't say I didn't wish to speak to you...
I said you post too much and IF you care to continue a conversation with ME (not everyone here is the same) it would be necessary to take bite-size pieces of information.


OTOH, I understand it is difficult to reply to what I've written since it is all true and there is no answer.

 

[Niblo]

I'm an adult person and do not need to put you or anybody else on ignore.

I didn't say I didn't wish to speak to you...
I said you post too much and IF you care to continue a conversation with ME (not everyone here is the same) it would be necessary to take bite-size pieces of information.


OTOH, I understand it is difficult to reply to what I've written since it is all true and there is no answer.

Excellent! Bite sized pieces it shall be , God willing.

By the way, when do you intend to cite those Qur'anic verses that - in your opinion - support terrorism?
Peace.

 

[Niblo]

1. You really write a lot and this makes it diffiult to reply to you.
2. Your last 2 paragraphs are interesting...unfortunately we are born with the sin nature, which you should know since you were Christian. Are you a Muslim now?

Many Muslims are becoming Christian because they see how imprisoned they are by Islam.

Yes, I am now Muslim. Thank you for asking.

Have a great day, and very best regards.

 

[Niblo]

Many Muslims are becoming Christian because they see how imprisoned they are by Islam.

I don't mind if a Muslim becomes a Christian. What matters - above all - is that the Exalted continues to be worshipped. I rejoice in that.

In a three mile strip of the valley in which I live there used to be (in the 1950s) two Anglican churches, nine chapels and one Pentecostal meeting room. There is now only one active place of worship ..my grandfather's chapel...a shadow of its former self. The soul of my community has all but died. God is all but forgotten.

Peace.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm in a unique position at my place of employment because i am caucasian and a Christian. I'm my group, there are two other Caucasians, both Christian yet we all belong to differing ideologies. Two co-workers are from India. One follows traditional Hindu teachings and the other isn't into religion, but has Muslim influence. The others are Chinese and neither of them are religious.

Last year we had two other team members who were both Muslm. One lives in Dearborn Mi. And was a devout follower of Sharia. His family came from Palestine and they visited yearly. He and i would talk often of the OT stories. I would recite stories of Moses and David from the Bible and he would recite their stories.
The other was from Turkey ( I've worked with two Turkish Muslims) and we would share the same stories.

When the two discussed matters of the Quran, they most often decided to agree to disagree as they held opposing views of it.

I bring this up because the middle east does not comprise of the largest population of Muslims and they disagree in Theology as vehemently as I've seen some Christians disagree.

In the same way, those who claim to be Christian are guilty of innocent blood in the name of their own prejudice and zeal. The Crusades are a prime example of this, but on a smaller scale, the USA has it's own dirty laundry by organizations such as the KKK which is now known as white supremacy who proclaim to be Christians, and do so under the "authority of God".

We see this in many religions. As a result, we see this sin nature is universal and propagates within any religion.

Jesus said blessed are the peace makers, and i wonder if he wasn't thinking about King Cyrus who was devoted to Murduck, yet God announced him as a prophet.

 

[Niblo]

I'm in a unique position at my place of employment because i am caucasian and a Christian. I'm my group, there are two other Caucasians, both Christian yet we all belong to differing ideologies. Two co-workers are from India. One follows traditional Hindu teachings and the other isn't into religion, but has Muslim influence. The others are Chinese and neither of them are religious.

Last year we had two other team members who were both Muslm. One lives in Dearborn Mi. And was a devout follower of Sharia. His family came from Palestine and they visited yearly. He and i would talk often of the OT stories. I would recite stories of Moses and David from the Bible and he would recite their stories.
The other was from Turkey ( I've worked with two Turkish Muslims) and we would share the same stories.

When the two discussed matters of the Quran, they most often decided to agree to disagree as they held opposing views of it.

I bring this up because the middle east does not comprise of the largest population of Muslims and they disagree in Theology as vehemently as I've seen some Christians disagree.

In the same way, those who claim to be Christian are guilty of innocent blood in the name of their own prejudice and zeal. The Crusades are a prime example of this, but on a smaller scale, the USA has it's own dirty laundry by organizations such as the KKK which is now known as white supremacy who proclaim to be Christians, and do so under the "authority of God".

We see this in many religions. As a result, we see this sin nature is universal and propagates within any religion.

Please read my latest post....my comments on the spiritual darkness that has descended on my home town. The greatest tragedy...it seems to me....is that God is being forgotten, and faith in Him seen to be an irrelevance. We are meant to be....all of us....beacons of His love; living examples of what He truly is...and what He desires for us. Instead..........How great will be our shame when we stand before Him, and learn of the many who rejected Him because of us!

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

To Niblo

I honestly had no idea about these letters and declarations, and am relieved greatly by them. It has been my impression that Islamic leaders and scholars did nothing against ISIS while their rampage reigned. This is one thing I am very glad to see I was wrong about.

You asked why I didn't know though. My answer would have to be that I had not heard these things in the news and didn't know where to turn to look them up. If I can ask, where did you find these letters and declarations given and agreed on by Islamic leaders andvIslamic scholars? Was it because it was in your news and you heard about it as it was being reported? Or did you have somewhere to look it up? If it was the second, I ask that you let me know how you found this information. That way I can search for it myself when in the future something happens and I neither see nor hear a response from Muslim leaders.

In the past I've seen news reports about violence and vandalism done against Muslims or against a mosque. When I see this I'm ashamed by the people who've done the acts, but I also usually see a statement from local churches and local governors or mayors offering support to the victims of these crimes and speak about a message of tolerance towards Islam. These are usually reported in the news. I have no response to know why Islamic responses against terrorism has not been reported by the news sources that I see. I didn't know there were a negitive responses to terrorism, couldn't answer why they weren't reported.

(Continued)

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

(Continued from before to Niblo)

As for the teachings in Islam that speak against violence against unarmed people or against Christians and Jews. I have a thought on those. It is a simular thought that I have on Christians who act in violence such as the fighting in Ireland between Catholics and Protestants that is apparently still going on just as fircely as it was in years past.

My thought is that there is a danger if Christianity is accepted without Christians also searching the scriptures to know what Jesus taught and to follow Him. After all Jesus went further in his appeal to do no violence by saying to love your enemy, pray for those who persecute you, and to not return evil for evil but conquor evil by doing good. The fighting I think comes from shallow understanding of Jesus's message and to act in violence anyways. Or based on shallow devotion, where they know it's wrong to fight back instead of trusting God to handle the matter but instead are overwhelmed letting themselves get angry at harms that are done to them or said against them.

The danger is not in accepting Christianity but in finding an identity to rise up and fight without knowing that Jesus did not teach that. Perhaps the same factors is true for Islam. That if the world became Muslim and held a sheria like set of laws then those would be used to stir up trouble and cause infighting corruption and violence by those who see that they've been wronged and don't mind doing greater evil in response.

Honestly I don't know much about Islam from it's texts or from the split between Sunni and Shiite. So I can't say much to the traditions or the texts that speak against violence. Neither to confirm nor correct what's said of them to be a peaceful religion. All I know is that these two branches of Islam have a lot of fighting between the two of them against each other. So I have no confidence that a world ruled by Islam would be a peaceful one.

Until Jesus comes back I have no confidence of a nonviolent world, even if all the countries were Christian. It comes down to identifying as a Christian versus striving to follow Jesus. The difference between the two is enough to encourage acts of evil against those someone thinks are harming people they identify with, or against people who've harmed them directly. Perhaps the same logic can be applied to Islam if it was held as the agreed religion throughout the world. That it would not be as well each full as you hope it would be.

 

[stovebolts]

I don't mind if a Muslim becomes a Christian. What matters - above all - is that the Exalted continues to be worshipped. I rejoice in that.

In a three mile strip of the valley in which I live there used to be (in the 1950s) two Anglican churches, nine chapels and one Pentecostal meeting room. There is now only one active place of worship ..my grandfather's chapel...a shadow of its former self. The soul of my community has all but died. God is all but forgotten.

Peace.

There will always be a remnant... I believe ( in part) that the church is shrinking so that the true believers will gather.
For two long, and i can really only speak for America, but for two long has the church been at war with it's brother. Wolves scatter, and they have certainly scattered the flock with their division to where it has become a stench to onlookers. Outside looking in, Christianity has been it's own worst enemy fighting amongst ourselves and calling each other heretics. It's no wonder membership is in decline and the world wants nothing to do with us. In America, it's become political and politics drive the "Christian" believe, not Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Excellent! Just let me know what your attention span happens to be, and I'll tailor my posts to suit.

By the way, when do you intend to cite those Qur'anic verses that - in your opinion - support terrorism?
Peace.

I didn't say they support terrorism...
I said they say to kill the infidel.

Let's try Qur'an 4:101

Ane when you (muslims) travel in the land, there is no sin on you if you shorten your Salat (prayer) if you fear that the disbelievers may attach you, VERILY, the disbelievers are EVER UNTO YOU OPEN ENEMIES.

DISBELIEVERS are enemies of Muslims.
They are the infidel that can be killed...they are the enemies.

 

[JohnDB]

Now I can understand a lot of what Niblo is saying.
But I also am a firm believer in "cleaning our own house".

Moslems do have an uphill battle in front of them if they expect to win the PR war.

Since WWII and the last vestiges of the Ottoman Empire siding with Germany and the Axis Powers their press has not been positive and reflects nothing that Niblo is asserting.

Now I will state that often America has had an unreasonable (at times) alliance with Israel and the rest of the world (France being center stage here with Russia of late getting a pass) of unmeasured retaliation for terrorist/guerilla aggression towards civilian populations.

And everyone looking the other way simply because of a "lack of financial importance" of those who were reprised against.

Then again back in the '70's we had Iran laying seige to an American Embassy and holding American civilian citizens hostage for an ungodly amount of time...all backed by not so much an elected political official but by a religious one....and one of the Hostage Takers is now that country's leader!

And over the years we have had skirmishes all over the world all in the name of Mohammed and the Moslem faith. Embassies and consulates and civilian people being attacked for some perceived wrong...and not just Americans being targeted either.

Now I do agree that Christians have had their atrocities such as the assassinations of doctors and nurses at abortion clinics, Catholic Priests sexually abusing minors, and etc...but in each and every case we punished those guilty of such crimes. But the Moslem faith can't say that. Often those who commit these atrocities are heralded as heroes. (Iran's leadership case in point)

And then there is the whole Sharia Law that Moslem communities try to get enforced here in America. Now I'm all for having cross culturalism...but I don't go to another country after leaving mine (because of their poor economy) and begin to tell them what language to speak and what laws to have.

Now I'll grant you that often the richer countries could do with throwing less money around. But at the same time the Moslem faith could do with an enormous amount of "house cleaning".

 

[stovebolts]

Now I can understand a lot of what Niblo is saying.
But I also am a firm believer in "cleaning our own house".

Moslems do have an uphill battle in front of them if they expect to win the PR war.

Since WWII and the last vestiges of the Ottoman Empire siding with Germany and the Axis Powers their press has not been positive and reflects nothing that Niblo is asserting.

Now I will state that often America has had an unreasonable (at times) alliance with Israel and the rest of the world (France being center stage here with Russia of late getting a pass) of unmeasured retaliation for terrorist/guerilla aggression towards civilian populations.

And everyone looking the other way simply because of a "lack of financial importance" of those who were reprised against.

Then again back in the '70's we had Iran laying seige to an American Embassy and holding American civilian citizens hostage for an ungodly amount of time...all backed by not so much an elected political official but by a religious one....and one of the Hostage Takers is now that country's leader!

And over the years we have had skirmishes all over the world all in the name of Mohammed and the Moslem faith. Embassies and consulates and civilian people being attacked for some perceived wrong...and not just Americans being targeted either.

Now I do agree that Christians have had their atrocities such as the assassinations of doctors and nurses at abortion clinics, Catholic Priests sexually abusing minors, and etc...but in each and every case we punished those guilty of such crimes. But the Moslem faith can't say that. Often those who commit these atrocities are heralded as heroes. (Iran's leadership case in point)

And then there is the whole Sharia Law that Moslem communities try to get enforced here in America. Now I'm all for having cross culturalism...but I don't go to another country after leaving mine (because of their poor economy) and begin to tell them what language to speak and what laws to have.

Now I'll grant you that often the richer countries could do with throwing less money around. But at the same time the Moslem faith could do with an enormous amount of "house cleaning".

Did you notice that most of the Muslim atrocities centered around those in the Middle East? As i tried to say earlier, I've personally known 3 Muslims that I've enjoyed talking face to face with about God. One from Palestine and the other two from Turkey.
The one from Palestine supported Sharia while the other two rejected it.

What I'm trying to show is that if I accused the two from Turkey of supporting Sharia law, they would rightly accuse me of not listening to them as well as falsely accusing them of holding a position they did not hold in the Muslim faith.

As an example, i can show you Christians who say if you are not baptized, you are going to hell. If i accused you of holding this belief, would that be fair? What if you told me you didn't hold to that teaching, but i continued to force the issue upon you?

This is often what happens to the majority of Muslims that i work with. They do not support what the radical Muslims are doing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Now I can understand a lot of what Niblo is saying.
But I also am a firm believer in "cleaning our own house".

Moslems do have an uphill battle in front of them if they expect to win the PR war.

Since WWII and the last vestiges of the Ottoman Empire siding with Germany and the Axis Powers their press has not been positive and reflects nothing that Niblo is asserting.

Now I will state that often America has had an unreasonable (at times) alliance with Israel and the rest of the world (France being center stage here with Russia of late getting a pass) of unmeasured retaliation for terrorist/guerilla aggression towards civilian populations.

And everyone looking the other way simply because of a "lack of financial importance" of those who were reprised against.

Then again back in the '70's we had Iran laying seige to an American Embassy and holding American civilian citizens hostage for an ungodly amount of time...all backed by not so much an elected political official but by a religious one....and one of the Hostage Takers is now that country's leader!

And over the years we have had skirmishes all over the world all in the name of Mohammed and the Moslem faith. Embassies and consulates and civilian people being attacked for some perceived wrong...and not just Americans being targeted either.

Now I do agree that Christians have had their atrocities such as the assassinations of doctors and nurses at abortion clinics, Catholic Priests sexually abusing minors, and etc...but in each and every case we punished those guilty of such crimes. But the Moslem faith can't say that. Often those who commit these atrocities are heralded as heroes. (Iran's leadership case in point)

And then there is the whole Sharia Law that Moslem communities try to get enforced here in America. Now I'm all for having cross culturalism...but I don't go to another country after leaving mine (because of their poor economy) and begin to tell them what language to speak and what laws to have.

Now I'll grant you that often the richer countries could do with throwing less money around. But at the same time the Moslem faith could do with an enormous amount of "house cleaning".

There won't be any house cleaning.
It's the extremists that rule....
Even Muslims are afraid of the extremists.
And all this is due to their doing this FOR GOD...
and because of the Qur'an which is full of violence for the non-believers..which is those that do not believe in Islam.

 

[GodsGrace]

Did you notice that most of the Muslim atrocities centered around those in the Middle East? As i tried to say earlier, I've personally known 3 Muslims that I've enjoyed talking face to face with about God. One from Palestine and the other two from Turkey.
The one from Palestine supported Sharia while the other two rejected it.

What I'm trying to show is that if I accused the two from Turkey of supporting Sharia law, they would rightly accuse me of not listening to them as well as falsely accusing them of holding a position they did not hold in the Muslim faith.

This is very true. I've had a nice Muslim friend a couple of blocks away....so? This is like saying I have a black/Hispanic/homosexual/etc. friend.

Not ALL Muslims are terrorists...but they all agree that the whole world should be like THEM. No tolerance for others...it's just to what degree each individual person is willing to go to achieve this goal.

 

[JohnDB]

Did you notice that most of the Muslim atrocities centered around those in the Middle East? As i tried to say earlier, I've personally known 3 Muslims that I've enjoyed talking face to face with about God. One from Palestine and the other two from Turkey.
The one from Palestine supported Sharia while the other two rejected it.

What I'm trying to show is that if I accused the two from Turkey of supporting Sharia law, they would rightly accuse me of not listening to them as well as falsely accusing them of holding a position they did not hold in the Muslim faith.

Yeah...
But the equivalent is that we usually toss anyone who claims that someone is not a Christian. Most other websites do the same.

Why do Moslems allow such behavior to continue?

 

[JohnDB]

There won't be any house cleaning.
It's the extremists that rule....
Even Muslims are afraid of the extremists.
And all this is due to their doing this FOR GOD...
and because of the Qur'an which is full of violence for the non-believers..which is those that do not believe in Islam.

If this was true (which I don't think it is) then why are they not having more civil wars? Sunni vx Shiite?
Saudi Arabia I happen to know doesn't care who is involved...both sides fighting or inciting violence "disappear".