Calvinism and the Nicene Creed

[atpollard]

Help me understand the logic of this statement. Why then would you claim to profess the creed of a Church with which you do not belong?

Many of the decrees and canons declared at the Council of Nicea (which composed the Nicene Creed) are incompatible with Calvinism. You statement would be like a Catholic professing the creed of Mormonism.

Please explain.

Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

• I believe in one God.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.

• I believe Jesus is God incarnate, second person of the Triune Godhead.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.

• I believe in the incarnation and Virgin Birth.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.

• I believe in the crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.

• I believe in the ascension, the second coming and the eternal kingdom of Christ.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.

• I believe in the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Triune Godhead.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.

• I believe the church founded by Christ is HOLY. I believe that the church founded by Christ is UNIVERSAL (catholic) and contains all of the children of God from all times and all denominations united by the blood of Christ. I believe that the church founded by Christ is APOSTOLIC ... built upon the teachings of the apostles appointed by Christ Himself and recorded in our Holy Bible.

We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

• I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. As a Reformed Baptist, I believe that it is the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit that removes sins, and the immersion in water performed by human hands is an outward expression of affirmation for an inner change already wrought by God.

We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.

• I believe in the literal resurrection of the dead and that God will make good on his promise of eternal life for His sheep in Heaven.

So what part of the Nicene Creed did you find incompatible with Calvinism:

1. (T) Man is totally unable to save himself
2. (U) God chooses men to be saved based on no innate merit in those chosen.
3. (L) Christ’s death on the cross removed only the sins of those that God had chosen (the Elect) to be saved and His blood completely and effectively removed all of their sins.
4. (I) God irresistibly draws to Christ those that God has chosen for salvation.
5. (P) God is able to finish what he starts and those “predestined” will ultimately be “glorified”.

 

[Walpole]

Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

• I believe in one God.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.

• I believe Jesus is God incarnate, second person of the Triune Godhead.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.

• I believe in the incarnation and Virgin Birth.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.

• I believe in the crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.

• I believe in the ascension, the second coming and the eternal kingdom of Christ.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.

• I believe in the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Triune Godhead.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.

• I believe the church founded by Christ is HOLY. I believe that the church founded by Christ is UNIVERSAL (catholic) and contains all of the children of God from all times and all denominations united by the blood of Christ. I believe that the church founded by Christ is APOSTOLIC ... built upon the teachings of the apostles appointed by Christ Himself and recorded in our Holy Bible.

We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

• I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. As a Reformed Baptist, I believe that it is the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit that removes sins, and the immersion in water performed by human hands is an outward expression of affirmation for an inner change already wrought by God.

We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.

• I believe in the literal resurrection of the dead and that God will make good on his promise of eternal life for His sheep in Heaven.

So what part of the Nicene Creed did you find incompatible with Calvinism:

1. (T) Man is totally unable to save himself
2. (U) God chooses men to be saved based on no innate merit in those chosen.
3. (L) Christ’s death on the cross removed only the sins of those that God had chosen (the Elect) to be saved and His blood completely and effectively removed all of their sins.
4. (I) God irresistibly draws to Christ those that God has chosen for salvation.
5. (P) God is able to finish what he starts and those “predestined” will ultimately be “glorified”.

The very Church described by the words of the Creed is the Church Protestants positively reject. The Nicene Creed was composed by Catholic bishops defending the faith of the Catholic Church. A few of the things the Catholic Church did at the same Council in which it composed it's creed you claim to profess include:

- Declared Christ as the same substance (ὁμοούσιον, consubstantialem) of the Father - contra sola Scriptura (Ecthesis of the Council) - contrary to sola Scriptura
- Supported the discipline of celibacy and clerical continence (Canon 3)
- Instructed on preserving valid Apostolic succession by requiring three bishops present for the consecration of subsequent bishops (Canon 4)
- Declaring Rome as the authority to grant jurisdiction to other Churches (Canon 6)
- Ruled on ordaining men to the priesthood (Canons 9 & 10)
- Instructed on giving viaticum to the dying (Canon 13)
- Instructed regarding catechumens (Canon 14)
- Affirmed the ordained episcopate, priesthood and deaconate (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the Eucharist as the literal “Body of Christ" (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the priests and bishops as they who "offer" the Eucharistic sacrifice. (Canon 18)

These are but a few examples, all of which are rejected by Calvinists.

I am just trying to understand the logic in using a Creed composed by a Church with which one protests. For the very Creed composed by the bishops of the Church describes itself and professes a belief in it:

"...I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church."

The very Church described by the words of the Creed is the Church Calvinists (and Protestants) positively reject. Using my previous analogy, would you not think it illogical for a Catholic to profess a Mormon Creed or Statement of Faith, despite the fact that the Catholic religions incompatible with the Mormon religion?

 

[Christ_empowered]

i dont see the contradiction. honestly, the whole church chanting the Nicene Creed together is one of my fondest memories of a PCUSA childhood.

 

[Walpole]

i dont see the contradiction. honestly, the whole church chanting the Nicene Creed together is one of my fondest memories of a PCUSA childhood.

Here's the contradiction:

Unless you are Catholic or Orthodox, when you chanted the Nicene Creed, you professed belief in something you don't actually believe in.

 

[Christ_empowered]

no, no, no. see...

the invisible church, the real body of christ...

by and large, defies denominational divisions. God's grace saves The Elect, whoever they are, wherever they are...--nothing-- can nullify God's will in bringing about the salvation of His children. His Word and His Will --cannot-- and --do not-- and of course --will not-- return void.

 

[Walpole]

no, no, no. see...

the invisible church, the real body of christ...

by and large, defies denominational divisions. God's grace saves The Elect, whoever they are, wherever they are...--nothing-- can nullify God's will in bringing about the salvation of His children. His Word and His Will --cannot-- and --do not-- and of course --will not-- return void.

That's exactly my point. The Nicene Creed was composed by Catholic bishops defending the faith of the Catholic Church. It is not describing an invisible, pneumatological church comprised of people with conflicting and contradictory beliefs. Rather, it is describing a visible Church with the authority to declare what is or is not the faith. This Church it professes a belief in is rejected by Calvinists and all other Protestants.

Hence my question: Why then would you claim to profess the creed of a Church with which you do not belong?

 

[Christ_empowered]

aren't Presbys and other Protestants 'separate brethren,' these days? I think Vatican II softened things up, right?

 

[Walpole]

aren't Presbys and other Protestants 'separate brethren,' these days? I think Vatican II softened things up, right?

Yes, I even see "Presbys and other Protestants" even playing in friendly softball leagues with the Catholics and Orthodox these days.

Now back to my question again: Why would "Presbys and other Protestants" claim to profess the creed of a Church with which they do not belong?

 

[Christ_empowered]

--i-- do not belong to the rcc because i do not believe it is the one, true church. i do not believe it is the beacon of light to a dark and dying world.

Presbyterians and other old school Protestants just wanted to take as much truth from the rcc as possible. then, they built their own traditions...

of course, many of them are dying, which happens when whole churches throw out Scripture in favor of man's wisdom. i'll give you this much; the authority structure of the rcc makes it very, very hard to turn genuinely apostate. and yet...

better division in the --visible body of Christ-- than unity in false doctrine and heresy.

 

[Walpole]

--i-- do not belong to the rcc because i do not believe it is the one, true church. i do not believe it is the beacon of light to a dark and dying world.

Presbyterians and other old school Protestants just wanted to take as much truth from the rcc as possible. then, they built their own traditions...

of course, many of them are dying, which happens when whole churches throw out Scripture in favor of man's wisdom. i'll give you this much; the authority structure of the rcc makes it very, very hard to turn genuinely apostate. and yet...

better division in the --visible body of Christ-- than unity in false doctrine and heresy.

You are making my point. If you don't belong to the RCC because you do not believe it is the one, true church, then why are you professing belief in it?

The Nicene Creed was composed by Catholic bishops defending the faith of the Catholic Church. The Church the creed professes belief in is the Catholic Church!

Help me understand the logic.

 

[Christ_empowered]

catholic simply means universal in this context. i do believe in a universal, invisible body of Christ, chosen by God. they're known as the elect, and they're all over the place. and...

the creed may have been composed by RCC officials way back when, but it expresses the core truths of -real Christianity- . this is where...

Presbys, etc. can pick and choose from the RCC's vast repertoire what they consider truth and what they consider falsehood. the whole point of the reformation was to get to the core truth of Christianity, what it means to follow Christ, etc...

while casting off the heresy and falsehoods. that's my take on it, anyway.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

To Walpole.

Who do you thing defines who is a Christian and who isn't a Christian? It isn't denominations. It's God. If we are Christian then we are part of the body of Christ which makes up the church. Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Nondemonatiinal, are the same in terms of 1 Corinthians 1:10-15, when Paul addresses divisions in the church at that time, one saying they follow Peter, one saying they follow Paul, and others identifying someone else as if Jesus was divided by the apostles. So it is with us today when we say we are from any denomination instead of saying we follow Jesus.

What I've heard about the Christian creeds throughout history, is that they were made to be a tool for us when diverging heresies came and set to divide Christian from the truth to several wrong doctrines. A creed was made to help people recognize what defined their faith and made them Christian, compared to what was false teachings.

Does that make more sense? I've heard it reasoned that back before there were divisions in the church making splits between Catholic and Orthodox and the many protestant splits. Before then it was just counted as The Church. Meaning all Christians.

 

[Walpole]

catholic simply means universal in this context. i do believe in a universal, invisible body of Christ, chosen by God. they're known as the elect, and they're all over the place. and...

the creed may have been composed by RCC officials way back when, but it expresses the core truths of -real Christianity- . this is where...

Presbys, etc. can pick and choose from the RCC's vast repertoire what they consider truth and what they consider falsehood. the whole point of the reformation was to get to the core truth of Christianity, what it means to follow Christ, etc...

while casting off the heresy and falsehoods. that's my take on it, anyway.

The context is the point, as once again, the Nicene Creed was composed by Catholic bishops defending the faith of the Catholic Church. In other words, the creed was composed in the context of the Church's understanding of herself.

So once again, help me understand the logic of professing a belief in a Church which you reject?

Do you pick and choose things from the vast repertoire of other religions, such as Mormonism or Islam and use their creeds or statements of faith?

 

[Walpole]

To Walpole.

Who do you thing defines who is a Christian and who isn't a Christian? It isn't denominations. It's God. If we are Christian then we are part of the body of Christ which makes up the church. Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Nondemonatiinal, are the same in terms of 1 Corinthians 1:10-15, when Paul addresses divisions in the church at that time, one saying they follow Peter, one saying they follow Paul, and others identifying someone else as if Jesus was divided by the apostles. So it is with us today when we say we are from any denomination instead of saying we follow Jesus.

What I've heard about the Christian creeds throughout history, is that they were made to be a tool for us when diverging heresies came and set to divide Christian from the truth to several wrong doctrines. A creed was made to help people recognize what defined their faith and made them Christian, compared to what was false teachings.

Does that make more sense? I've heard it reasoned that back before there were divisions in the church making splits between Catholic and Orthodox and the many protestant splits. Before then it was just counted as The Church. Meaning all Christians.

What defines a Christian is their baptism (1 Cor 12:13).

What defines what is or is not the Christian faith is the Church.

The Creed we are discussing was composed by Catholic bishops to defend the Catholic faith and the Catholic Church. My question is for those to claim to profess the Nicene Creed, why would someone claim to profess a belief in a Church which they actually reject?

 

[Knotical]

I think you are getting hung up on the word "catholic." Having grown up in a reformed church, and currently attend a reformed church I have recited not only the nicene, but the apostles, and athanasean creeds (among others), where the word "catholic" simply means "universal", not specifically referencing the Roman Catholic church. So, it is absolutely possible, and permissable for a church that falls under the umbrella of protestantism to recite these creeds.

Something else to consider is to not put so much importance on the creeds themselves, as they are human inventions to summarize what we believe the bible teaches. The same goes for confessions. Having briefly left reformed theology for a more non-denominational approach I have found how useful the creeds and confessions are when explaining what I believe.

So, why not use something that was put so succinctly by arguably wise men more than 1500 years ago?

 

[Walpole]

I think you are getting hung up on the word "catholic." Having grown up in a reformed church, and currently attend a reformed church I have recited not only the nicene, but the apostles, and athanasean creeds (among others), where the word "catholic" simply means "universal", not specifically referencing the Roman Catholic church. So, it is absolutely possible, and permissable for a church that falls under the umbrella of protestantism to recite these creeds.

Something else to consider is to not put so much importance on the creeds themselves, as they are human inventions to summarize what we believe the bible teaches. The same goes for confessions. Having briefly left reformed theology for a more non-denominational approach I have found how useful the creeds and confessions are when explaining what I believe.

So, why not use something that was put so succinctly by arguably wise men more than 1500 years ago?

No, I am getting "hung up" on someone professing a belief in a creed describing a Church they actually reject.

Here again are some of the things this very Church which composed the Creed also did at the very same Council at Nicea...

- Declared Christ as the same substance (ὁμοούσιον, consubstantialem) of the Father - contra sola Scriptura (Ecthesis of the Council)
- Supported the discipline of celibacy and clerical continence (Canon 3)
- Instructed on preserving valid Apostolic succession by requiring three bishops present for the consecration of subsequent bishops (Canon 4)
- Declaring Rome as the authority to grant jurisdiction to other Churches (Canon 6)
- Ruled on ordaining men to the priesthood (Canons 9 & 10)
- Instructed on giving viaticum to the dying (Canon 13)
- Instructed regarding catechumens (Canon 14)
- Affirmed the ordained episcopate, priesthood and deaconate (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the Eucharist as the literal “Body of Christ" (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the priests and bishops as they who "offer" the Eucharistic sacrifice. (Canon 18)

These are but a few examples, all of which are rejected by Protestants. Protestants reject the authority of Rome over the Church universal. Protestants reject the Eucharist as the actual body of Christ. Protestants reject the Catholic priesthood. Protestants reject a celibate priesthood. Protestants reject Apostolic succession via the episcopacy, etc.

If you don't accept these things, you reject the Church that composed the Creed you recite, which is the "Roman" Catholic Church.

I am just trying to understand the logic in using a Creed composed by a Church which one rejects.

 

[Knotical]

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest you may be of the pentacostal variety. Am I right?

 

[Walpole]

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest you may be of the pentacostal variety. Am I right?

No, I am not of the Pentecostal [sic] variety.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I am just trying to understand the logic in using a Creed composed by a Church which one rejects.

That's not what it sounds like. The reasons are given. Basically the same reasons reworded a few different ways. As it reads it sounds like what you're asking is why weren't the creeds rejected when a person is not Catholic themselves. The reasons for that are likely the same or very simular to the ones for why they accept and believe the words in those creeds. You don't have to like it, or even agree with it, but the reasons are the same as what has already been explained.

What defines a Christian is their baptism (1 Cor 12:13).

What defines what is or is not the Christian faith is the Church.

Nope. Sorry but your wrong. When Jesus came He scolded and critized the religous leaders in Israel. They rejected Jesus, as well as practiced continued hypocracy, then instead of seeing their error, and repenting, they got angry at Jesus's teachings and direct critisms, so they planed on how to kill Him. Later Jesus showed Himself to John in a vision and told him to record what John say and heard. The first few chapters of this was Jesus dictating a message to the churches in different cities. Some with a harsh warning that if they did not correct their error then Jesus would remove them from their place among the churches (among the lamp stands).

Elsewhere Jesus said that no one comes to the Father except therother Jesus, and they don't come to Jesus unless the Father draws them to Him. Jesus also said that without God's help it would be impossible for us to remain in Him. And lastly Jesus warned that not everyone who calls Him "Lord" is really saved.

These are trying issues to sort through, but in the end it comes to this. We can strive to be Christian, but without God's help we will fail. (Thank God for His help). And we can try to define what it means to be a Christian but God will be the ultimate judge. And many who are lost or who are saved will suprise us.

Therefore while it is good for us to be in unity in our faith and be strengthened by our community among eachother, we should not forget Jesus's words to not call anyone teacher, because we all have one teacher. Jesus.

 

[Knotical]

No, I am getting "hung up" on someone professing a belief in a creed describing a Church they actually reject.

Here again are some of the things this very Church which composed the Creed also did at the very same Council at Nicea...

- Declared Christ as the same substance (ὁμοούσιον, consubstantialem) of the Father - contra sola Scriptura (Ecthesis of the Council)
- Supported the discipline of celibacy and clerical continence (Canon 3)
- Instructed on preserving valid Apostolic succession by requiring three bishops present for the consecration of subsequent bishops (Canon 4)
- Declaring Rome as the authority to grant jurisdiction to other Churches (Canon 6)
- Ruled on ordaining men to the priesthood (Canons 9 & 10)
- Instructed on giving viaticum to the dying (Canon 13)
- Instructed regarding catechumens (Canon 14)
- Affirmed the ordained episcopate, priesthood and deaconate (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the Eucharist as the literal “Body of Christ" (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the priests and bishops as they who "offer" the Eucharistic sacrifice. (Canon 18)

These are but a few examples, all of which are rejected by Protestants. Protestants reject the authority of Rome over the Church universal. Protestants reject the Eucharist as the actual body of Christ. Protestants reject the Catholic priesthood. Protestants reject a celibate priesthood. Protestants reject Apostolic succession via the episcopacy, etc.

If you don't accept these things, you reject the Church that composed the Creed you recite, which is the "Roman" Catholic Church.

I am just trying to understand the logic in using a Creed composed by a Church which one rejects.

Of course there are plenty of things we disagree with the Roman Catholic church about, but that does not mean we should completely reject everything. After all, where do you think we got most of our theology in the first place. Even though Martin Luther broke away from the RC because of some rather profound doctrinal issues, he still clung to many truths that even the RC believes in.