Calvinism and the Nicene Creed

[Walpole]

On the other hand, Walpole, maybe it's your turn to defend your position. Do you agree with the points in the Nicean Creed? If so, then there is no issue here. If not, then what parts of the creed do you disagree with?

This is a chance to defend yourself for this much arguing before the thread is closed because of the growing arguments leading nowhere. (Not sure if this thread will close or not, but I've seen this kind of thing close after a while of bickering and arguing). (atpollard this comment is for you too. This thread might close because of the growing bitterness and bickering between you two).

For the record, I am not trying to be argumentative. I am just trying to understand the logic behind using the creed of a Church / religion which one positively rejects. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer so I am just having trouble understanding the logic in this.

For example, why don't Calvinists use Islamic creeds? The Calvinist version of God is very similar to the Islamic understanding of God. (Both act with pure will; contra-Logos, etc.). The reason they don't is because they reject the religion itself. So, why do they use the Creed of Catholics / Orthodox when they reject those religions?

See my confusion?

 

[Knotical]

For the record, I am not trying to be argumentative. I am just trying to understand the logic behind using the creed of a Church / religion which one positively rejects. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer so I am just having trouble understanding the logic in this.

For example, why don't Calvinists use Islamic creeds? The Calvinist version of God is very similar to the Islamic understanding of God. (Both act with pure will; contra-Logos, etc.). The reason they don't is because they reject the religion itself. So, why do they use the Creed of Catholics / Orthodox when they reject those religions?

See my confusion?

To suggest that the Calvinist version of God is similar to Allah (the Islamic God) shows that you don't understand Calvinism at all. Islam does not support a triune god, Calvinism does.

It seems you would benefit from actually reading through the confessions of the mainstream, but more conservative, denominations within the protestant side of Christianity. There is a lot you seem to be ignorant about on that front. Once you have done that then come back to have a more meaningful discussion rather than continue to rant and rave about something you are confused about.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes.

"For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slavesor free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit." - 1 Cor 12:13

"...having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead." - Col 2:12



Yes.

"...because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." - 1 Peter 3:20-21


(Since Luther has been introduced, he also taught baptism saves.)

Well, this makes me very happy.
My husband, who is not a believer, will be saved after all since he was baptized in the CC !

But, seriously now...
IF baptism saves,,,WHY did the ECFs wait as long as possible to be batpized?

Perhaps because the baptism washed away their sins, THEN they sinned again and there was no resolution for this at the early stages of the church --- confession ensued.

Also, this means that EVERY catholic I know will be going to heaven.

Well, that is NOT what the priests I know believe.
So are they right or are you right.

This is why the CC has such problems....

 

[GodsGrace]

For the record, I am not trying to be argumentative. I am just trying to understand the logic behind using the creed of a Church / religion which one positively rejects. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer so I am just having trouble understanding the logic in this.

For example, why don't Calvinists use Islamic creeds? The Calvinist version of God is very similar to the Islamic understanding of God. (Both act with pure will; contra-Logos, etc.). The reason they don't is because they reject the religion itself. So, why do they use the Creed of Catholics / Orthodox when they reject those religions?

See my confusion?

Maybe because they reject the religion because of reasons such as
baptism saves a person....

HOWEVER, they believe in the creed.

We also use the bible that the ECFs put together...
using your reasoning...the protestants should reject THAT bible and come up with their own.

 

[GodsGrace]

To suggest that the Calvinist version of God is similar to Allah (the Islamic God) shows that you don't understand Calvinism at all. Islam does not support a triune god, Calvinism does.

It seems you would benefit from actually reading through the confessions of the mainstream, but more conservative, denominations within the protestant side of Christianity. There is a lot you seem to be ignorant about on that front. Once you have done that then come back to have a more meaningful discussion rather than continue to rant and rave about something you are confused about.

You're right.
BUT
Islam believes in a God that predetermines everything.
That removes free will....
This is an important attribute of God that they both seem to believe in.

 

[Knotical]

You're right.
BUT
Islam believes in a God that predetermines everything.
That removes free will....
This is an important attribute of God that they both seem to believe in.

But we don't believe that Allah, is the God of the Universe, which is an important distinction between the Quran and the Bible.

 

[Walpole]

To suggest that the Calvinist version of God is similar to Allah (the Islamic God) shows that you don't understand Calvinism at all. Islam does not support a triune god, Calvinism does.

It seems you would benefit from actually reading through the confessions of the mainstream, but more conservative, denominations within the protestant side of Christianity. There is a lot you seem to be ignorant about on that front. Once you have done that then come back to have a more meaningful discussion rather than continue to rant and rave about something you are confused about.

Of course Islam does not support the Trinity, for if they did, they would be Christians. What I am referring to are specific attributes of God that Islam and the God of Calvinism have in common. For example, both believe God can and does act with pure will; both believe in God's determinism; both believe in God's fatalism; both believe God can and does deceive; both believe God is an iconoclast; both believe in divine dictation; both believe in sola Scriptura. These are just a few examples.

 

[Walpole]

Maybe because they reject the religion because of reasons such as
baptism saves a person....

It wasn't until the anabaptists came on the scene did Protestants turn on baptism. For here are the words of Protestantism's progenitor:

"This is the simplest way to put it: the power, effect, benefit, fruit and purpose of baptism is that it saves. For no one is baptized in order to become a prince, but as the words say, 'to be saved.' To be saved, as everyone knows, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death and the devil, to enter into Christ's kingdom, and to live with him forever." - Martin Luther, Large Catechism

The anabaptists, led by Zwingli, stated that the Apostles and Fathers were actually wrong about baptism and that he (Zwingli) was right. (cf. Zwingli, De Baptismo, 1525)

Anti-sacramentalism began with attacking baptism, then the Eucharist and everything else that flows from it. However, in Christianity, matter...matters.

HOWEVER, they believe in the creed.

We also use the bible that the ECFs put together...
using your reasoning...the protestants should reject THAT bible and come up with their own.

There is NO ECF or Church in all of history that has a canon matching the Protestant 66-book canon. So yes, they (Protestants) made that up too along with their theology and religion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Luther's teachings were rejected, as they were novel and erroneous. He rejected the Church and her teachings in favor of his own new doctrines and theology.

I don't want this to turn into a thread on Luther, but just to tie it back to the OP, Luther (and his progeny) will tell you they accept the Nicene Creed and as many as seven of the fist Councils of the Catholic Church. Yet I have demonstrated this is not true, as even the very first Council, that of Nicea, taught things all rejected by Protestants, such as the priesthood, celibacy, Apostolic succession via the episcopacy, the Eucharistic sacrifice, etc.

I agree with 90%.
I DO believe Luther was correct about some catholic practices.
What started it all was the sale of indulgences. These are still available today although they are not sold. It's inconceivable to me that a person in the church could come up with such an idea...How would God have proposed such an idea?

The CC is nowhere near close to declaring Mary as the co-redemptrix. Here is Pope Benedict...

"I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand [to declare Mary as the Co-redemptrix], which in the meantime is being supported several million people, within the foreseeable future. The response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly that what is signified by this already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula 'Co-redemptrix' departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings.

"What is true here? Well, it is true that Christ does not remain outside us or to one side of us, but builds a profound and new community with us. Everything that is his becomes ours, and everything that is ours he has taken upon himself, so that it become his: this great exchange is the actual content of redemption, the removal of limitations from our self and its extension into the community with God. Because Mary is the prototype of the Church as such and is, so to say, the Church in person, this being 'with' is realized in her in exemplary fashion. But this 'with' must not lead us to forget the 'first' of Christ. Everything comes from him as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary too, is everything that she is through him.

"The word 'Co-redemptrix' would obscure this origin. A correct intention is being expressed in the wrong way. For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language."

- Peter Seewald, God and the World, pg. 306

Mr. Seewald can say what he will and of course his is only an opinion.

What counts is not what HE says but what the magesterum says.
And what the Pope says,,,be it excathedra or not.

The following is from Lumen Gentium,,,,an official Papal Document:

56. The Father of mercies willed that the incarnation should be preceded by the acceptance of her who was predestined to be the mother of His Son, so that just as a woman contributed to death, so also a woman should contribute to life. That is true in outstanding fashion of the mother of Jesus, who gave to the world Him who is Life itself and who renews all things, and who was enriched by God with the gifts which befit such a role. It is no wonder therefore that the usage prevailed among the Fathers whereby they called the mother of God entirely holy and free from all stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature.(5*) Adorned from the first instant of her conception with the radiance of an entirely unique holiness, the Virgin of Nazareth is greeted, on God's command, by an angel messenger as "full of grace",(286) and to the heavenly messenger she replies: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word".(287) Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam, consenting to the divine Word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only Mediator. Embracing God's salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she "being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."(6*) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith."(7*) Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her "the Mother of the living,"(8*) and still more often they say: "death through Eve, life through Mary."(9*)

57. This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to His death it is shown first of all when Mary, arising in haste to go to visit Elizabeth, is greeted by her as blessed because of her belief in the promise of salvation and the precursor leaped with joy in the womb of his mother.(288) This union is manifest also at the birth of Our Lord, who did not diminish His mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it,(10*) when the Mother of God joyfully showed her firstborn Son to the shepherds and Magi. When she presented Him to the Lord in the temple, making the offering of the poor, she heard Simeon foretelling at the same time that her Son would be a sign of contradiction and that a sword would pierce the mother's soul, that out of many hearts thoughts might be revealed.(289) When the Child Jesus was lost and they had sought Him sorrowing, His parents found Him in the temple, taken up with the things that were His Father's business; and they did not understand the word of their Son. His Mother indeed kept these things to be pondered over in her heart.(290)

58. In the public life of Jesus, Mary makes significant appearances. This is so even at the very beginning, when at the marriage feast of Cana, moved with pity, she brought about by her intercession the beginning of miracles of Jesus the Messiah.(291) In the course of her Son's preaching she received the words whereby in extolling a kingdom beyond the calculations and bonds of flesh and blood, He declared blessed(292) those who heard and kept the word of God, as she was faithfully doing.(293) After this manner the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan,(294) grieving exceedingly with her only begotten Son, uniting herself with a maternal heart with His sacrifice, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth. Finally, she was given by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross as a mother to His disciple with these words: "Woman, behold thy son".(295) (11*)

59. But since it has pleased God not to manifest solemnly the mystery of the salvation of the human race before He would pour forth the Spirit promised by Christ, we see the apostles before the day of Pentecost "persevering with one mind in prayer with the women and Mary the Mother of Jesus, and with His brethren",(296) and Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation. Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all guilt of original sin,(12*) on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,(13*) and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe, that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords(297) and the conqueror of sin and death.(l4*)

part 1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

part 2 of 2


III. On the Blessed Virgin and the Church

60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, "for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all".(298) The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.

61. Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was on this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. She presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.

62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.

63. By reason of the gift and role of divine maternity, by which she is united with her Son, the Redeemer, and with His singular graces and functions, the Blessed Virgin is also intimately united with the Church. As St. Ambrose taught, the Mother of God is a type of the Church in the order of faith, charity and perfect union with Christ.(18*) For in the mystery of the Church, which is itself rightly called mother and virgin, the Blessed Virgin stands out in eminent and singular fashion as exemplar both of virgin and mother. (19*) By her belief and obedience, not knowing man but overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, as the new Eve she brought forth on earth the very Son of the Father, showing an undefiled faith, not in the word of the ancient serpent, but in that of God's messenger. The Son whom she brought forth is He whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren,(299) namely the faithful, in whose birth and education she cooperates with a maternal love.

64. The Church indeed, contemplating her hidden sanctity, imitating her charity and faithfully fulfilling the Father's will, by receiving the word of God in faith becomes herself a mother. By her preaching she brings forth to a new and immortal life the sons who are born to her in baptism, conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of God. She herself is a virgin, who keeps the faith given to her by her Spouse whole and entire. Imitating the mother of her Lord, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, she keeps with virginal purity an entire faith, a firm hope and a sincere charity.(20*)

65. But while in the most holy Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she is without spot or wrinkle, the followers of Christ still strive to increase in holiness by conquering sin.(300) And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Piously meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church with reverence enters more intimately into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her Spouse. For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated, calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her exalted Type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. Hence the Church, in her apostolic work also, justly looks to her, who, conceived of the Holy Spirit, brought forth Christ, who was born of the Virgin that through the Church He may be born and may increase in the hearts of the faithful also. The Virgin in her own life lived an example of that maternal love, by which it behooves that all should be animated who cooperate in the apostolic mission of the Church for the regeneration of men.

IV. The Cult of the Blessed Virgin in the Church

66. Placed by the grace of God, as God's Mother, next to her Son, and exalted above all angels and men, Mary intervened in the mysteries of Christ and is justly honored by a special cult in the Church. Clearly from earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities.(21*) Hence after the Synod of Ephesus the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: "All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me".(301) This cult, as it always existed, although it is altogether singular, differs essentially from the cult of adoration which is offered to the Incarnate Word, as well to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and it is most favorable to it. The various forms of piety toward the Mother of God, which the Church within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine, according to the conditions of time and place, and the nature and ingenuity of the faithful has approved, bring it about that while the Mother is honored, the Son, through whom all things have their being (302) and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell,(303) is rightly known, loved and glorified and that all His commands are observed.

67. This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.(22*) But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

V. Mary the sign of created hope and solace to the wandering people of God

68. In the interim just as the Mother of Jesus, glorified in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected is the world to come, so too does she shine forth on earth, until the day of the Lord shall come,(304) as a sign of sure hope and solace to the people of God during its sojourn on earth.

source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html


And in the CCC start with paragraph 963 and read on.
The church is very close to calling her co-redemptrix.

 

[GodsGrace]

But we don't believe that Allah, is the God of the Universe, which is an important distinction between the Quran and the Bible.

What do you mean?
Islam believes in the God of the O.T.
Isn't there only One God?

The problem is that THEIR GOD is Muhammad and NOT GOD.

 

[GodsGrace]

It wasn't until the anabaptists came on the scene did Protestants turn on baptism. For here are the words of Protestantism's progenitor:

"This is the simplest way to put it: the power, effect, benefit, fruit and purpose of baptism is that it saves. For no one is baptized in order to become a prince, but as the words say, 'to be saved.' To be saved, as everyone knows, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death and the devil, to enter into Christ's kingdom, and to live with him forever." - Martin Luther, Large Catechism

The anabaptists, led by Zwingli, stated that the Apostles and Fathers were actually wrong about baptism and that he (Zwingli) was right. (cf. Zwingli, De Baptismo, 1525)

Anti-sacramentalism began with attacking baptism, then the Eucharist and everything else that flows from it. However, in Christianity, matter...matters.




There is NO ECF or Church in all of history that has a canon matching the Protestant 66-book canon. So yes, they (Protestants) made that up too along with their theology and religion.

I agree.
I do believe that some books were removed from the bible at the reformation because they did not agree with the new theology.
No more speaking to the dead (MacCabees) etc.

If protestantism believes that the bible was inspired by God...then it should have been left intact. Did God change His mind?

And yes, baptism has changed, communion, confession....
I must say that every sacrament is based on scripture, but it has been treated incorrectly, I think.

For instance...communion is given at too early an age...
Confirmation is lacking the presence of the Holy Spirit.


BTW, I don't really expect an answer on Lumen Gentium...
There are other documents that also practically call Mary a co-redeemer. I think this is unacceptable.

 

[Walpole]

Well, this makes me very happy.
My husband, who is not a believer, will be saved after all since he was baptized in the CC !

But, seriously now...
IF baptism saves,,,WHY did the ECFs wait as long as possible to be batpized?

Perhaps because the baptism washed away their sins, THEN they sinned again and there was no resolution for this at the early stages of the church --- confession ensued.

Many of the Fathers delayed baptism because there was an error in the early Church that many held, that of Novatianism. It taught baptism should be delayed, as most people (especially single people) were more prone to temptation and sin.

Also, this means that EVERY catholic I know will be going to heaven.

Well, that is NOT what the priests I know believe.
So are they right or are you right.

This is why the CC has such problems....

Sorry but not EVERY Catholic will be going to heaven. The Church doesn't teach that. Baptism removes all sin, and if EVERY Catholic died immediately after baptism, you would be correct.

Baptism does not remove future sins, only present and past sins.

 

[Walpole]

What do you mean?
Islam believes in the God of the O.T.
Isn't there only One God?

The problem is that THEIR GOD is Muhammad and NOT GOD.

Islam does not believe Muhammad is God. They believe he is a prophet.

 

[Knotical]

Of course Islam does not support the Trinity, for if they did, they would be Christians. What I am referring to are specific attributes of God that Islam and the God of Calvinism have in common. For example, both believe God can and does act with pure will; both believe in God's determinism; both believe in God's fatalism; both believe God can and does deceive; both believe God is an iconoclast; both believe in divine dictation; both believe in sola Scriptura. These are just a few examples.

Wrong. Now you are attributing to God that which is of Satan, which, unless I miss my guess, is the unpardonable sin.

You may want to study a bit more, as you are coming to some very dangerous conclusions.

 

[Walpole]

part 2 of 2


III. On the Blessed Virgin and the Church

60. There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, "for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all".(298) The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.

61. Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was on this earth the virgin Mother of the Redeemer, and above all others and in a singular way the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. She presented Him to the Father in the temple, and was united with Him by compassion as He died on the Cross. In this singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Saviour in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace.

62. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer.

63. By reason of the gift and role of divine maternity, by which she is united with her Son, the Redeemer, and with His singular graces and functions, the Blessed Virgin is also intimately united with the Church. As St. Ambrose taught, the Mother of God is a type of the Church in the order of faith, charity and perfect union with Christ.(18*) For in the mystery of the Church, which is itself rightly called mother and virgin, the Blessed Virgin stands out in eminent and singular fashion as exemplar both of virgin and mother. (19*) By her belief and obedience, not knowing man but overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, as the new Eve she brought forth on earth the very Son of the Father, showing an undefiled faith, not in the word of the ancient serpent, but in that of God's messenger. The Son whom she brought forth is He whom God placed as the first-born among many brethren,(299) namely the faithful, in whose birth and education she cooperates with a maternal love.

64. The Church indeed, contemplating her hidden sanctity, imitating her charity and faithfully fulfilling the Father's will, by receiving the word of God in faith becomes herself a mother. By her preaching she brings forth to a new and immortal life the sons who are born to her in baptism, conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of God. She herself is a virgin, who keeps the faith given to her by her Spouse whole and entire. Imitating the mother of her Lord, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, she keeps with virginal purity an entire faith, a firm hope and a sincere charity.(20*)

65. But while in the most holy Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she is without spot or wrinkle, the followers of Christ still strive to increase in holiness by conquering sin.(300) And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Piously meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church with reverence enters more intimately into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her Spouse. For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated, calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father. Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her exalted Type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. Hence the Church, in her apostolic work also, justly looks to her, who, conceived of the Holy Spirit, brought forth Christ, who was born of the Virgin that through the Church He may be born and may increase in the hearts of the faithful also. The Virgin in her own life lived an example of that maternal love, by which it behooves that all should be animated who cooperate in the apostolic mission of the Church for the regeneration of men.

IV. The Cult of the Blessed Virgin in the Church

66. Placed by the grace of God, as God's Mother, next to her Son, and exalted above all angels and men, Mary intervened in the mysteries of Christ and is justly honored by a special cult in the Church. Clearly from earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities.(21*) Hence after the Synod of Ephesus the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: "All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me".(301) This cult, as it always existed, although it is altogether singular, differs essentially from the cult of adoration which is offered to the Incarnate Word, as well to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and it is most favorable to it. The various forms of piety toward the Mother of God, which the Church within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine, according to the conditions of time and place, and the nature and ingenuity of the faithful has approved, bring it about that while the Mother is honored, the Son, through whom all things have their being (302) and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell,(303) is rightly known, loved and glorified and that all His commands are observed.

67. This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.(22*) But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

V. Mary the sign of created hope and solace to the wandering people of God

68. In the interim just as the Mother of Jesus, glorified in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected is the world to come, so too does she shine forth on earth, until the day of the Lord shall come,(304) as a sign of sure hope and solace to the people of God during its sojourn on earth.

source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html


And in the CCC start with paragraph 963 and read on.
The church is very close to calling her co-redemptrix.

Please point out where she is called Co-redemptrix. (Also, in Latin, the prefix "co" does not mean equal.)

Also, the words I quoted were from Pope Benedict, not Peter Seewald. The book in which it was quoted (God and the World) was a series of questions that Peter Seewald asked Benedict.

 

[Walpole]

Wrong. Now you are attributing to God that which is of Satan, which, unless I miss my guess, is the unpardonable sin.

You may want to study a bit more, as you are coming to some very dangerous conclusions.

These are attributes of Calvin's version of God as well as Islam's version.

 

[GodsGrace]

Islam does not believe Muhammad is God. They believe he is a prophet.

Right.
I meant Mohammad as an idol...they worship HIM.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please point out where she is called Co-redemptrix. (Also, in Latin, the prefix "co" does not mean equal.)

Also, the words I quoted were from Pope Benedict, not Peter Seewald. The book in which it was quoted (God and the World) was a series of questions that Peter Seewald asked Benedict.

Well, ufortunately for the church, Pope Benedict is no longer in charge. I respected him.

I'm not saying she IS called co-redemptrix, but that the church is coming close to doing this.

I also know that co-has a different meaning in Latin.
I can't remember the definition right now,,,but it COULD mean either equal or not. It WILL be understood to mean equal in person's minds.
A helper in salvation is already attributed to her which is in the doc I posted.

Sorry about the Seewald mistake....

 

[GodsGrace]

Wrong. Now you are attributing to God that which is of Satan, which, unless I miss my guess, is the unpardonable sin.

You may want to study a bit more, as you are coming to some very dangerous conclusions.

Walpole is perfectly correct in his post about how Muslims understand God. It does match with Calvinism.