CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

[Iconoclast]

OK Iconoclast
I went to the 3rd link.
Again, it's reformed.

I don't agree with reformed theology.

There's no such Covenant as the one of Redemption or Grace or that 3rd one I can't remember.

Of course this Covenant was made BEFORE TIME BEGAN, as is the rule with the reformed.

I don't know what you'd like me to say.

The Covenant of Redemption....a big idea with the reformed.
The Covenant of Grace.................a big idea with the reformed.

But redemption is FOR ANYONE that so desires it....not just for "the chosen".
Grace if FOR ANYONE that wishes to take advantage of it....not just for "the chosen".

This will be it for me unless you have a specific question.

What did you mean by the term Holy Eucharist?
What is that, and what does it mean to you?

So, turn to Galatians 1:6 and posts #1167, #1138 for starters.

And please do not ask people to read the thoughts and ideas of men.
.

So I should not read the thoughts of godly men that God has given to the church but rather have everyone read your thoughts instead???
This defective thought is dead on arrival

 

[Cooper]

What did you mean by the term Holy Eucharist?
What is that, and what does it mean to you?

So I should not read the thoughts of godly men that God has given to the church but rather have everyone read your thoughts instead???
This defective thought is dead on arrival

Go to the source, the fountain head. The old testament prophets, and those they wrote about who came within living memory, instead of reading the dregs in the bottom of the tea cup from the false teachers of the 1500's who had no first hand knowledge and like the dregs in the bottom of a tea cup their writings need throwing away and discarded as being not fit for purpose.

As a historian, I need to go to the originals.
.

 

[jasonc]

Did you say that H20 exists simultaneously as ice, liquid, gas?

It's not simultaneous.
If it's liquid it's not ice/solid...and so on.
But is it still H20?

Water ,evaporates at any temperature,it does it slowly .,it also can be like the ocean at it's bottom early frozen .

 

[GodsGrace]

What did you mean by the term Holy Eucharist?
What is that, and what does it mean to you?

So I should not read the thoughts of godly men that God has given to the church but rather have everyone read your thoughts instead???
This defective thought is dead on arrival

I use the term Holy Eucharist because when I was "teaching" the covenants it was in the CC.
Eucharist means thanks, or to be thankful. It has to do with thankfulness.
I associate it with being thankful for Jesus' sacrifice.
What it means to me has to do with the Last Supper...
Jesus took the bread, gave thanks...
A lot to get into.
Some Christian denominations believe that Communion is only for remembering what Jesus did.
He said: Do this in memory of Me.
Some believe in the Real Presence, like the Lutheran denomination - and others.
The CC believes in transubstantiation: The wafer turns into the actual body and blood of Christ.
THIS IS MY BODY...

I'm Protestant however.
But I also know and understand the Catholic side.

 

[GodsGrace]

Water ,evaporates at any temperature,it does it slowly .,it also can be like the ocean at it's bottom early frozen .

No.
Free was right.
There's a certain point when water can be a liquid, solid, and gas all at the same time.
He sent a link if you care to go back and look it up.

 

[jasonc]

No.
Free was right.
There's a certain point when water can be a liquid, solid, and gas all at the same time.
He sent a link if you care to go back and look it up.

Uhm water ,I would know about water since I work for a utility grid .

It changes states but not it's chemistry .

 

[GodsGrace]

Uhm water ,I would know about water since I work for a utility grid .

It changes states but not it's chemistry .

If I find the link, I'll post it.
All 3 states were present AT THE SAME TIME.
I thought this was impossible too.

 

[jasonc]

You can observe a gas change in ac work .

 

[jasonc]

If I find the link, I'll post it.
All 3 states were present AT THE SAME TIME.
I thought this was impossible too.

I know it does.the ocean doesn't boil .while it's not pure water ,water actually has interesting qualities with the ocean as it has what is called deuterium,and evaporate without boiling and it's bottom nearly freezes and currents at each level and the ice bergs are floating in the ocean

Water is a solvent ,it eats what ever it touches in pure form yet also will heat and cool .

We have schools that don't use ac but water cooling that has ice that is made and then heated by air that makes the air around cooler then chilled again .water is lost in that process and also antifreeze is induced in it .

 

[Niblo]

If I find the link, I'll post it.
All 3 states were present AT THE SAME TIME.
I thought this was impossible too.

Consider a glass of ice water on a hot summer day; a drink made up of three coexisting phases of H2O: water (liquid), ice (solid), and vapor (gaseous).

Free has offered a very clever analogy, but it fails as a description of the Trinity. On the contrary, it is a form of tritheism; a heresy.

Returning to our drink:

The liquid does not exist as liquid within the ice; nor within the vapor. The ice does not exist as ice within the liquid, nor within the vapour. The vapour does not exist as gas within the liquid, nor within the ice.

What we have are three distinct entities – with different characteristics – coexisting, side by side. Hence ‘tritheism’; the teaching that the Godhead is really three separate beings, forming three separate gods.

As you know, according to the dogma of the ‘Trinity:

There is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Within the Godhead, the Father is entirely within the Son and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Son is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Son. In other words, the three Persons form a single unity, indivisible and permanent. They are not three persons (gods) coexisting side by side, so to speak. This is monotheism.

Blessings.

 

[GodsGrace]

Consider a glass of ice water on a hot summer day; a drink made up of three coexisting phases of H2O: water (liquid), ice (solid), and vapor (gaseous).

Free has offered a very clever analogy, but it fails as a description of the Trinity. On the contrary, it is a form of tritheism; a heresy.

Returning to our drink:

The liquid does not exist as liquid within the ice; nor within the vapor. The ice does not exist as ice within the liquid, nor within the vapour. The vapour does not exist as gas within the liquid, nor within the ice.

What we have are three distinct entities – with different characteristics – coexisting, side by side. Hence ‘tritheism’; the teaching that the Godhead is really three separate beings, forming three separate gods.

As you know, according to the dogma of the ‘Trinity:

There is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Within the Godhead, the Father is entirely within the Son and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Son is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is entirely within the Father and entirely within the Son. In other words, the three Persons form a single unity, indivisible and permanent. They are not three persons (gods) coexisting side by side, so to speak. This is monotheism.

Blessings.

Agreed Niblo,
We were saying how any explanation really falls apart.
I used to use the water when explaining but it was a bit heretical, just as you said.
It wasn't tritheism though, can't remember right now.

I mean, I used to teach catechism,,,it does need to be explained to kids somehow.
I never found the perfect way, and it has to be visual in nature.
How about the triangle?

 

[Niblo]

Agreed Niblo,
We were saying how any explanation really falls apart.
I used to use the water when explaining but it was a bit heretical, just as you said.
It wasn't tritheism though, can't remember right now.

I mean, I used to teach catechism,,,it does need to be explained to kids somehow.
I never found the perfect way, and it has to be visual in nature.
How about the triangle?

Hi Fran.

Probably modalism....the claim that as H2O can have different modes (liquid, solid or gas), so the Beloved - who is essentially one - has revealed Himself in different forms - or modes- as Father, as Son and as Holy Spirit. This, too, is deemed a heresy, of course.

Is there a perfect way to explain the Beloved's nature? 'Hear, O Isreal, the Lord thy God, the Lord is One!' I have used the triangle. It can work, provided that the Beloved's essential oneness is emphasised.

Blessings.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Fran.

Probably modalism....the claim that as H2O can have different modes (liquid, solid or gas), so the Beloved - who is essentially one - has revealed Himself in different forms - or modes- as Father, as Son and as Holy Spirit. This, too, is deemed a heresy, of course.

Is there a perfect way to explain the Beloved's nature? 'Hear, O Isreal, the Lord thy God, the Lord is One!' I have used the triangle. It can work, provided that the Beloved's essential oneness is emphasised.

Blessings.

Yes!
Modulism!

And Deuteronomy would be disasterous for a kid!

Try explaining Jesus after that...
LOL

I also used the idea of one person.
But he can be father, husband, son.
That's modulism too.

Rainy and grey.

 

[rogerg]

We are kept by the power of God through our faith.
The problem is that I believe we could forfeit that faith and you do not.
The NT is replete with verses about the idea of loss of faith, not going to post them again.

I also do want to say that I've learned from 3 different denominations and all 3 believe in loss of salvation...
the reformed CANNOT believe this because that would be the end of the P in TULIP....take one concept out and it all crashes.

God keeps us as long as we wish Him to.
I posted what Jesus said in John 15:5-6
I can't do more than that.

Part 1.

If you're correct, then Christ's offering did not save to the uttermost, as we have been told (see Heb 7:25 below). But you are not correct. His offering does save perfectly and to the uttermost, otherwise our salvation would be dependent upon ourselves, thereby negating the efficacy of Christ - you do believe Christ the Saviour, don't you? We are saved solely by what He did and not by anything we may or may not do. That is why He has the title of Saviour and we do not.
Regarding John 15:5-6, those who are saved learn from the Bible and will follow its admonitions. If they weren’t taught by the Bible, then they wouldn't become edified. That they do learn, is not to bring them salvation but because they already have salvation. For the unsaved, they will misunderstand and interpret it into something they must do for salvation. Also, you neglected to include verses 7 - 8 which relates to 5-6. Those saved have Christ's words abiding in them - but they abide in them as a fruit of the Holy Spirit from salvation.
The reason the Father is glorified is that by having been saved by God, they bring forth much fruit

[Heb 7:24-25, 27 KJV]
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. ...
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

[Jhn 15:7-8 KJV]
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Faith is given by the Holy Spirit?
I don't recognize this as one of His works.
I thought it was a gift from God as Eph 2:8-9 states.

And faith comes in many forms.
I had a thread some time ago about the idea that there is a recipe for receiving faith.
I don't believe there is a recipe.
You believe in the sovereignty of God and yet you limit Him in every way.
God will save as He so wills it.

Yes, true faith is a fruit of the Spirit (see Gal 5:22 below) and as such, a gift. The Holy Spirit is Himself God. One obtains true faith only from becoming born again (from salvation) which cannot be self-imparted. Many claim to have faith, but unless given by the Holy Spirit, that faith must be of their work, not God's -- true faith is given of the Holy Spirit with Christ as its centerpiece – by whom is everything else relating to salvation, to include that faith, given – and because it is given, it is free and eternal. A false faith does not have Christ as its centerpiece but requires work - to include that faith itself, because it was not given but manufactured is false.
That which brought salvation to us was Christ's faith(fulness) and His obedience not ours. From and because of that, those saved have His faith imputed unto them, and by that, come faith and righteousness.
Regarding your recipe comment, I do not understand what you mean.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Eph 2:8 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

[Gal 2:20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[Rom 3:22 KJV]
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

 

[rogerg]

Faith is given by the Holy Spirit?
I don't recognize this as one of His works.
I thought it was a gift from God as Eph 2:8-9 states.

And faith comes in many forms.
I had a thread some time ago about the idea that there is a recipe for receiving faith.
I don't believe there is a recipe.
You believe in the sovereignty of God and yet you limit Him in every way.
God will save as He so wills it.

Part 2 (I'm not real good at cutting and pasting so I may have messed it up. If so, please let me know)

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit (see Gal 5;22 below). The Holy Spirit is Himself God. One obtains true faith only from becoming born again (from salvation) and it cannot be self-imparted. Many claim to have faith, but unless given by the Holy Spirit, that faith is their work, not God's -- true faith is given of the Holy Spirit and has Christ as its centerpiece – by whom is everything else relating to salvation to include that faith, given – and because it is given, it is eternal. A false faith does not have Christ as its centerpiece but requires work - to include that faith itself as a work because it was not given.
That which brought salvation to us was Christ's faith(fulness) and His obedience not ours. From and because of that, those saved have His faith imputed unto them, and from that, are given their faith and righteousness.
Regarding your recipe comment, I do not understand what you mean.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[Eph 2:8 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

[Gal 2:20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[Rom 3:22 KJV]
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

[1Pe 1:21 KJV]
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
The rest of that particular post above, I don't understand.

Now faith is given by God.
OK, but be consistent.

So what you're saying is that God gives faith to those that are saved.
So you have to be saved first in order to be saved.
This is so silly I just refuse to answer it anymore.
One scripture is sufficient: Eph 2:8-9, or Romans 10:17 FAITH COMES BY HEARING
And yes, we all have ears and we can hear with them. (my apologies to the deaf).

There are two manifestations of faith: 1) Christ's faith which brought salvation to the elect, and from that, 2) faith given to those saved. Faith given to those who become saved, grows over time in the hearing of the gospel and growth in the excellency of the knowledge of Christ. This faith, however, is not the one that saves, only Christ's faith does that.
Read closely the parts of 2:16 that are underscored. To paraphrase: by Christ's faith we believe, and by His faith we are saved – it is all by Christ, not ourselves.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We may all have human ears, but no one can hear spiritually with them. To truly hear the gospel requires spiritual ears not physical, therefore not all hear - only the saved can.

[Jhn 8:42-43 & 47 KJV]
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.
(hat tip to brightfame52 for v47)

[Mat 13:16 KJV]
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

I don't read the bible by lines.
I read chapters usually.

Verse 3 states that God gives us the grace of the gift of faith, as per Eph 2:8-9. Agreed on this.

Could you put 1 Peter 1:3-5 into your own words?
Or, start and end where you please...
I'd really like to know what you understand these verses to mean.

I already included that in my prior post to you, but here it is again:
Look at the verses preceding 1 Pet 1:5 - it is easier to understand if taken in context:
V3 informs that it is God Himself who has begotten again (has made born again) those who are kept in v5; v4 informs that their inheritance is already reserved, awaiting them in heaven - and in being reserved by God for them, they cannot fall from it neither can it be lost to them; v5 informs that to receive the inheritance as promised by God in v4, they are kept by the power of God.
By the way, the "unto salvation" of v5, is the final manifestation of salvation on the last day - the final rejuvenation.

[1Pe 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Phl 1:6 tells us essentially the same thing – that God has made Himself guarantor of the salvation of those saved

[Phl 1:6 KJV] 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

In your verse 4, I don't think you included that it had been "reserved in heaven for them". Because it is "their inheritance" from God, that inheritance is reserved in heaven. Since the elect alone are the beneficiaries of the will of God, when the testator (Christ) died, that will came into full force and effect, is frozen, and unchangeable. Therefore, whomever was in it then, they, and they alone, will be in it forever (and no one else can be), and thereby receives the inheritance of God and eternal life.

[Gal 3:15 KJV] 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

[Heb 9:16-17 KJV]
16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Think about that. If God reserved an inheritance in heaven for them, then that inheritance must be received by them and only by them, and in being reserved, cannot be lost. So, going back to 1Pet 1:5, those given faith, through the power of God, will remain in faith unto the end.

 

[Niblo]

I also used the idea of one person.
But he can be father, husband, son.
That's modulism too.

Indeed!

 

[Cooper]

Yes!
Modulism!

And Deuteronomy would be disasterous for a kid!

Try explaining Jesus after that...
LOL

I also used the idea of one person.
But he can be father, husband, son.
That's modulism too.

Rainy and grey.

The deity of Jesus is seen throughout the whole Bible and as we know, there is only one God, so let the TV program Undercover Boss show how this can be.

Going back a long time to the beginning of the motor car and Henry Ford’s factory, a new starter called John Doe began work there. He wore a boiler suit, swept the floor, and did whatever was required of him. His devotion to his work spread across the whole shop floor, he was well-liked and a good storyteller, but gradually a rumour spread around the factory that this new starter was really Henry Ford, but unsurprisingly, hardly anyone believed the one they ate and drank with was Henry Ford in person. The evidence was there, but they either did not pick up on it, or if they did, they thought it extremely unlikely, but as we know, there was only one Henry Ford in the company and there is only one omnipresent God in the universe, who is, and was, both visible and invisible.

What John Doe did, Henry Ford did. He was in constant communication with his Head Office and after approximately three years he left the factory. It was not until Henry Ford invited some of those people to head office that he revealed who he really was.

Some discovered the truth about John Doe the same as people did about Jesus, while others continue to doubt it. But those who believed will find their doubts and fears fading away as they walk and talk, not with the creator of cars, but with the creator of heaven and earth. John Doe did great work and provided sustenance for those who knew him and worked for him. Jesus did much more than John Doe and it is to our eternal advantage that we follow Him all the days of our life. May God bless.

 

[GodsGrace]

The deity of Jesus is seen throughout the whole Bible and as we know, there is only one God, so let the TV program Undercover Boss show how this can be.

Going back a long time to the beginning of the motor car and Henry Ford’s factory, a new starter called John Doe began work there. He wore a boiler suit, swept the floor, and did whatever was required of him. His devotion to his work spread across the whole shop floor, he was well-liked and a good storyteller, but gradually a rumour spread around the factory that this new starter was really Henry Ford, but unsurprisingly, hardly anyone believed the one they ate and drank with was Henry Ford in person. The evidence was there, but they either did not pick up on it, or if they did, they thought it extremely unlikely, but as we know, there was only one Henry Ford in the company and there is only one omnipresent God in the universe, who is, and was, both visible and invisible.

What John Doe did, Henry Ford did. He was in constant communication with his Head Office and after approximately three years he left the factory. It was not until Henry Ford invited some of those people to head office that he revealed who he really was.

Some discovered the truth about John Doe the same as people did about Jesus, while others continue to doubt it. But those who believed will find their doubts and fears fading away as they walk and talk, not with the creator of cars, but with the creator of heaven and earth. John Doe did great work and provided sustenance for those who knew him and worked for him. Jesus did much more than John Doe and it is to our eternal advantage that we follow Him all the days of our life. May God bless.

I don't watch much TV and don't even live over there, so no Undercover Boss.

But wouldn't you say that the above method is the same as the
ONE MAN but he's
FATHER
SON
HUSBAND

It's still modulism.
It's really difficult to explain the Trinity.
I understand it in my own way and I think that's the best we can do.

 

[Cooper]

I don't watch much TV and don't even live over there, so no Undercover Boss.

But wouldn't you say that the above method is the same as the
ONE MAN but he's
FATHER
SON
HUSBAND

It's still modulism.
It's really difficult to explain the Trinity.
I understand it in my own way and I think that's the best we can do.

I thought I understood modulism, but it seems you will have to explain it to me. Isn't it one mode one after the other, but not at the same time?
Any married man can be a father, son and husband at one and the same time can they not?
After all you and I are tripart beings, comprising body, soul and spirit and we are in the image of God except we are not eternal or omnipresent.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

I thought I understood modulism, but it seems you will have to explain it to me. Isn't it one mode one after the other, but not at the same time?
Any married man can be a father, son and husband at one and the same time can they not?
After all you and I are tripart beings, comprising body, soul and spirit and we are in the image of God except we are not eternal or omnipresent.
.

I'll tell you the truth Cooper,
I understand modulism more.
It doesn't even seem wrong to me, but we don't have the brain power the early theologians did.

The below is from Wikipedia.
Modulism and the Trinity, Trinitariansim, are at odds with each other.

If you find anything easier to understand, you could post it.
I'd start a thread on this but there have been so many and nothing ever gets accomplished.

Modalistic Monarchianism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org