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CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

Iconoclast said:
I interacted with him for four years. I do not say he is lying. he went to a reformed church, but he never really grasped the teaching. He might have thought he was a Cal, but he most surely was not.
I found him to be a nice guy. He could take critical remarks, and offer his own back at you.
Click to expand...
Oh. Well this is totally different than your last post.
It seems to me that he's got the meaning grasped pretty well.

Would you be willing to let me in on WHAT he doesn't understand properly?

I mean, JESUS MADE CHRISTIANITY SO EASY...
And you guys make it SO DIFFICULT.

So, what does Flowers say that isn't taught in reformed churches?
 
rogerg said:
Only with, and by, the Holy Spirit is His fruit is it given. He only gives the Holy Spirit at becoming born-again,
and only becoming born again with salvation. So, one has to be saved to be given true faith from God.
Therefore, it is not given to everyone - and the only language I need to know is the language of God
in the Bible, of which, we can only gain an understanding of from the Bible.
Click to expand...
But other languages would help you too Roger.

And one HEARS
and then he ACCEPTS
and then HE IS BORN AGAIN
Romans
Paul
Any language.

And I'd say that it is given to anyone...

What did Jesus mean when He told the parable of the builder?
Luke 14:28-30
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’

Someone wants to start something.
We sit down and figure out the cost.
Jesus said that if we're to follow Him, we must pick up our daily cross.

Following Him has a cost.
If we must COUNT THE COST, doesn't this mean that we have to think on what we're going to undertake,
decide if we really want to do this, and then pick up our cross and go.

This does not fare well for predestination.
 
rogerg said:
Really? Did you miss this or just not believe it?

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Click to expand...

Can you post a different verse that claims that the Holy Spirit gives us faith?

Basic theology, I should say hermeneutics/exegesis states that no doctrine can be made with the authority of just one verse.
 
wondering said:
But other languages would help you too Roger.

And one HEARS
and then he ACCEPTS
and then HE IS BORN AGAIN
Romans
Paul
Any language.
Click to expand...
Definitely not! The Bible is its own dictionary and glossary of terms - it needs nothing outside of itself
to be complete. That is the exact reason God tells us the following about the Bible, from the Bible.
Bible first - definitions outside of it, second - hence the "thoroughly furnished" in v17 below

[2Ti 3:16,17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
rogerg said:
Definitely not! The Bible is its own dictionary and glossary of terms - it needs nothing outside of itself
to be complete. That is the exact reason God tells us the following about the Bible, from the Bible.
Bible first - definitions outside of it, second - hence the "thoroughly furnished" in v17 below

[2Ti 3:16,17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Click to expand...
RIGHT!

That's why you think it says FAITH
And I'm telling you it says FAITHFULNESS.

Oh boy.
 
rogerg said:
Why do you need a different one? That one was written by God. Doesn't it count?
Click to expand...
I stated why...

No doctrine can be based ON ONE VERSE.
It must be in line with THE REST OF THE SCRIPTURES.

This is why.
Galatians 5:22 is questionable as to what the last gift is...

so we need to find some other verses that state that the HOLY SPIRIT
1. Gives faith and not God Father
2. That the Holy Spirit is giving the gift of faith in Gal 5:22
 
I'll see your oh boy and raise you a head-slap. You read the verse, you saw the definition of the word, to disagree
is to change the verse from what God had written. It isn't that complicated.
Read this and tell me what you think it means, and based upon it, how would it be possible for unsaved person to produce their own faith - so it has to be as a fruit of the Spirit. If you think about it closely enough, you will see that those verses satisfy your request for a second verse.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
 
wondering said:
RIGHT!

That's why you think it says FAITH
And I'm telling you it says FAITHFULNESS.

Oh boy.
Click to expand...
Didn't have you tagged in my prior reply so I reposted.

I'll see your oh boy and raise you a head-slap. You read the verse, you saw the definition of the word, to disagree
is to change the verse from what God had written. It isn't that complicated.
Read this and tell me what you think it means, and based upon it, how would it be possible for unsaved person to produce their own faith - so it has to be as a fruit of the Spirit. If you think about it closely enough, you will see that those verses satisfy your request for a second verse.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
 
rogerg said:
Didn't have you tagged in my prior reply so I reposted.

I'll see your oh boy and raise you a head-slap. You read the verse, you saw the definition of the word, to disagree
is to change the verse from what God had written. It isn't that complicated.
Read this and tell me what you think it means, and based upon it, how would it be possible for unsaved person to produce their own faith - so it has to be as a fruit of the Spirit. If you think about it closely enough, you will see that those verses satisfy your request for a second verse.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Click to expand...
No Roger!
You're playing verse tag.

First you reply to the parable of the tower builder.
Then I'll reply to your two posts above.

I'm sick and will be home all evening.
The rest of the flock went out to celebrate.
So I'll be coming and going.
 
rogerg said:
Didn't have you tagged in my prior reply so I reposted.

I'll see your oh boy and raise you a head-slap. You read the verse, you saw the definition of the word, to disagree
is to change the verse from what God had written. It isn't that complicated.
Read this and tell me what you think it means, and based upon it, how would it be possible for unsaved person to produce their own faith - so it has to be as a fruit of the Spirit. If you think about it closely enough, you will see that those verses satisfy your request for a second verse.

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Click to expand...
Oh my.
I think that's poker and I don't play!
The Holy Spirit teaches...that's one of HIs works!

1 Cor 2:14
The normal person that doesn't believe in God can't understand spiritual stuff.
OF COURSE!

The problem is.
HOW do they get saved...
ORDO SALUTIS....
That's the problem.

God's grace and mercy falls on all.
Some hear with the heart, and some don't.
After salvation they understand.

The guy that wants to build a tower...
later.
 
rogerg said:
I don't know what you mean. Give me verses, please
Click to expand...
Luke 14:28-30 NASB
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’

I also had made a comment, no problem.
It was about how Jesus said we are to pick up our cross if we follow Him.
We must count the cost to follow Him.
It means it's our choice.
Not Gods.
 
wondering said:
Oh my.
I think that's poker and I don't play!
The Holy Spirit teaches...that's one of HIs works!

1 Cor 2:14
The normal person that doesn't believe in God can't understand spiritual stuff.
OF COURSE!

The problem is.
HOW do they get saved...
ORDO SALUTIS....
That's the problem.

God's grace and mercy falls on all.
Some hear with the heart, and some don't.
After salvation they understand.

The guy that wants to build a tower...
later.
Click to expand...

The Holy Spirit doesn't teach everyone - only the elect so you obviously didn't read the verses I posted.
Those verses are referencing "natural man", the unsaved. Natural man CANNOT hear with the heart, that was whole the point.
How do they get saved? They get saved because before the foundation of the world, God chose to save them, and because He did, He, and He alone, does so.

No, grace and mercy do NOT fall on all, or all would become saved.
[Eph 1:4 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Notice the "us". Those are only the elect, not everyone. Look back at Eph 1:4, preceding - same "us".

[Eph 2:4 KJV]
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. See 2:8
[Eph 2:8 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Wait - did you just say, "after salvation they understand"? Okay, now I'm really confused. So,
you are now agreeing with me, or am I having a stroke?
 
wondering said:
I also had made a comment, no problem.
It was about how Jesus said we are to pick up our cross if we follow Him.
We must count the cost to follow Him.
It means it's our choice.
Not Gods.
Click to expand...
No, it doesn't mean our choice. It means that we CAN"T build it.
Jesus was informing that if we accurately estimate
the cost, it will be too high for any man (beside himself) to build
- it is outside of man's power to do so.
 
wondering said:
Calvinists believe in Perseverance of the Saints.
This means that once God has chosen a person to save,
that person cannot fall away from faith or God's grace,
or their relationship with God.

Since the NT speaks of situations where saved persons DO fall away,
does this mean that calvinism incorrect in teaching about perseverance?


This is for rogerg , brightfame52 , Jethro Bodine ,
2nd Timothy Group
Click to expand...
I believe that a Calvinist can fall away from faith in Calvinism and believe the Gospel and be saved.
 
Robert Pate said:
I believe that a Calvinist can fall away from faith in Calvinism and believe the Gospel and be saved.
Click to expand...
Be very careful. Reformed theology and Calvinism both very much have the gospel and to state otherwise and suggest those who are Reformed or Calvinist aren’t saved, would be against the ToS.
 
rogerg said:
The Holy Spirit doesn't teach everyone - only the elect so you obviously didn't read the verses I posted.
Click to expand...
I agree.
Those that don't believe don't care about the Holy Spirit.

rogerg said:
Those verses are referencing "natural man", the unsaved. Natural man CANNOT hear with the heart, that was whole the point.
How do they get saved? They get saved because before the foundation of the world, God chose to save them, and because He did, He, and He alone, does so.
Click to expand...

I can't find where the NT states that God CHOSE whom He will save before the foundation of the world.
I read many verses that state we are to make a choice, but of course, you don't see those verses.
What could be easier than:
Romans 10:9
9Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:17
17Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
and
Acts 16:31
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
rogerg said:
No, grace and mercy do NOT fall on all, or all would become saved.
Click to expand...

All would not become saved just because God's grace and mercy fall on all.
You only believe that because you believe in Irresistible grace.
God's mercy falls on all.
It is possible to resist that mercy because we have free will. You don't believe we have free will.

Luke 6:46
46Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. (God cannot be separated from His nature)

Lamentations 3:22-23
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.
Psalm 145:9
The Lord is good to all, and his mercy is over all that he has made.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
God's grace and mercy can be resisted:

John 5:39-40
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.


rogerg said:
[Eph 1:4 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Notice the "us". Those are only the elect, not everyone. Look back at Eph 1:4, preceding - same "us".
Click to expand...

God has certainly chosen us -- but not for salvation. It's never WHO but HOW...

Eph 1:4
God has chosen us IN HIM, that we should be holy and without blame.
What was predestinated is that we would be saved IN CHRIST, to be holy and without blame.

Yes, God is referring to us from verse 1...

rogerg said:
[Eph 2:4 KJV]
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Click to expand...

I don't understand why you posted this verse.

rogerg said:
Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. See 2:8
[Eph 2:8 KJV]
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Click to expand...

When the NT speaks of GOD,,,it refers to God Father,
not God Holy Spirit, in which case it specifically states Holy Spirit.

rogerg said:
Wait - did you just say, "after salvation they understand"? Okay, now I'm really confused. So,
you are now agreeing with me, or am I having a stroke?
Click to expand...
LOL

Of course.
Only AFTER our salvation can we understand the things of God.
People that study the bible in universities as literature, don't understand it the way we do.
 
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