Can Obedience To God Earn Salvation?

[watchman333]

It seems to me we get salvation mixed-up with living our lives in obedience to God. Obeying God is good, obeying His laws is good, and those who choose to live their lives without obedience have left themselves a serious up-hill climb to find God's outstretched arms. On the other hand, our redemption and salvation from this flesh life is totally dependent on God's grace and mercy.

 

[Eventide]

What our father Abraham hath found pertaining to the FLESH..

Ok I'll give you that one. That is as conditional as me having feet I order to buy shoes. Fair enough.

I know that it sounds silly, but let's put this stake in the ground and hopefully it will help along the way.

You believe that God had to choose you, that is regenerate you.. ie, become born again.. so that you could believe..

Is that correct so far..?

So explain how Abraham believed God, if the Holy Spirit was not given until Penecost.. and after our Lord Jesus Christ was glorified..

Do you believe that Abraham was born again and IN CHRIST like we are today ?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

How dose one earn what they already have? Are you trying to earn your salvation? If so then you are correct.

Are you saying one trusts in Christ because they already have salvation?

If so, how did one get salvation in the first place without trusting in Christ?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It seems to me we get salvation mixed-up with living our lives in obedience to God. Obeying God is good, obeying His laws is good, and those who choose to live their lives without obedience have left themselves a serious up-hill climb to find God's outstretched arms. On the other hand, our redemption and salvation from this flesh life is totally dependent on God's grace and mercy.

If man's obedience has no part in his salvation then how does God decide to whom He will extend grace and mercy and who He will withhold His grace and mercy from?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

In the words of Charles H. Spurgeon, "The strength of our obedience must be gauged by the very point in which it fails." And rest assured, as Spurgeon said many a time, including in the sermon from which I lifted this quote (evening service at the Crystal Palace, April 18, 1867), our strength cannot help be fail. We have no strength of our own, and in our own strength we are also stupid. That is the only explanation I can give for trying the same thing over and over and over again, expecting a different result. That is Chuck Swindoll's definition of insanity.

Man must make several discoveries on his way to salvation. Among them ...

It is important to be justified in the sight of God. A man can claim to be "as good" as anyone else, but justification is not about being made right before man, it is about being made right before God, and that is a very different thing.

In any life, there are serious offenses against God which have marred that life. When God begins working on us from outside, by His Holy Spirit, the light shines into those dank, dark places of our soul that we won't look, and perish the thought we would go in there. But we begin to realize how messed up our life is.

It is utterly impossible to hope that, on our own strength or "doing" we can be just before God. Our past is past and unremittable, our present is hardly better than our past and our future, despite our best intentions, will never look as it should in order to win God's favor.

Because of all the other discoveries, we discover also that we are under God's condemnation, not His favor. The truly sad thing about this discovery is, had any time in the past we were condemned by the courts of our country, we would be outraged, but being told we were condemned before the courts of heaven would have caused a laugh, a sarcastic remark, or complete ignorance of the remark.

Romans 5 NASB
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. [Emphasis added]
​

We have no hope in our "obedience." In fact, we are never "obedient" because we simply desire to be obedient. We are obedient because of the inner work of the Holy Spirit who now indwells us, not because of anything we purpose, propose or do. We are the filth of rags without Christ, and without His influence.

 

[Danus]

It is salvation. Nothing to earn. Even the trust is not earned, it's provided for free to anyone who will come to God.

It sounds to me like you're saying we have to earn the "trusting" by coming to God.

That would be an incorrect interpretation of my meaning when I say; ""anyone who will come to God. It could be taken that way, and doing so would be along the same lines as the meaning is sometimes taken when Paul talks about people seemingly doing things of their on volition, but that's not the meaning.

If God chooses whom will be saved from the foundation of the world, to say that those people are predestined to salvation, then at some point they will come to God. They will answer the call, make the change, hear the word ect, ect, ect; it's what will be, not what they will to do, but what has been written that they do. ...i'm using "written' as a metaphor, or device for meaning.

Hope that clears my meaning up.

 

[Danus]

It seems to me we get salvation mixed-up with living our lives in obedience to God. Obeying God is good, obeying His laws is good, and those who choose to live their lives without obedience have left themselves a serious up-hill climb to find God's outstretched arms. On the other hand, our redemption and salvation from this flesh life is totally dependent on God's grace and mercy.

I like this, and I'd say that's a fair commentary to truth. It also addresses well the accusation that there might not be a reason to care about sin in ones life. Clearly there is.

If man's obedience has no part in his salvation then how does God decide to whom He will extend grace and mercy and who He will withhold His grace and mercy from?

Please keep in mind that the gospel does not describe an ongoing salvation for say, as much as it describes growth from salvation. This is a big part of the debate. But for the sake of this thread, and to answer your question (whatchman333 may want to answer it his own way) we need to start with what's being said of salvation; that it is a one time event in ones life. At least the awareness and revelation to the one saved is. And so your question, a very good one, is how does God decide who will be saved if they can't effect by merit or works, or some condition they meet to be saved.

The answer is longer than the question, but the short of it is disturbing to most. However here it is. By His own pleasure, will and desire to do so not for that man, but for His glory to all men.

Many find this offensive, but that's really all God has said, or even needs to say to us, because while this thing called Christianity as a religion may be for us, salvation is ultimately NOT ABOUT YOU. (when I say YOU I'm being general to all) It's about God.

To those offended by this some will simply ignore the whole idea of God and salvation, finding other religions that focus on them or no religion at all, or they will choose their own understanding to fit themselves. none of that means they are, or aren't, or won't be saved, but the three main arguments out there to answer your question of how God chooses beyond what he has already said are these.

1. The salvation of individuals is ultimately the result of their choice rather than divine appointment (alone). (We often label this as the Armenian view after Arminius, but it fits with the RCC as well.

2. Election is based upon God foreseeing the faith of certain individuals rather than only being in accordance with His pleasure and merciful will. (This is a skewed Protestant view that is not biblical in any way)

3. Election is conditional, based upon the acceptance of Jesus Christ and not the determination of God, even though God's grace is certainly involved in this process. (This is more in line with the RCC)

There are other points people, make and have made just on this thread. God is arbitrary, or God is unfair, or salvation is a crap shoot based on luck, but none of these fit Gods reasoning either, because God has clearly said that anyone can be saved. He's also said not everyone is, or will be, and he has clearly said all are born into sin and doomed to condemnation, but that he will have mercy on whom he bloody well chooses.

Here are four points about what we do know from the character of God about Gods choosing.

1. Election is grounded in God's moral character (i.e., goodness, compassion, empathy, integrity, non-duplicity, non-favoritism, justice, etc.)

2. God does have "causes and reasons" for His choices, though these are "internal" to God (i.e., not found in the creature). We know He is good and therefore can trust that He would make a better choice than we would.

3. He 'does NOTHING without reason' --- He 'does NOTHING rashly’. He has simply not revealed these reasons and causes to us--although they certainly exist. Since they haven’t been revealed, we cannot try to figure them out but since we know the trustworthiness of God we can rejoice in His wisdom. God does not 'lack just reasons’ for His actions. These 'just reasons' are merely hidden from us.

4. Salvation is not conditioned upon anything that God sees in us that makes us worthy of His choosing us. NONE of His decrees were done except justly and wisely".

It's not a matter of How God chooses, because it's not up to us. But it is evident whom God chooses. It is evident to that person and it is evident in some way to others. Anyone can be saved. Anyone. Seek and you will find. ask and it will be given.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Can Obedience To God Earn Salvation?

Only if its the Obedience of One, The Lord Jesus Christ, by His one Act of obedience He earned many Salvation, He made them Righteous. Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If we Trust in the obedience or duties of man for Salvation, we are deceived and on that broad road to desdestruction

 

[dadof10]

That would be an incorrect interpretation of my meaning when I say; ""anyone who will come to God. It could be taken that way, and doing so would be along the same lines as the meaning is sometimes taken when Paul talks about people seemingly doing things of their on volition, but that's not the meaning.

That's obviously his meaning.

If God chooses whom will be saved from the foundation of the world, to say that those people are predestined to salvation, then at some point they will come to God. They will answer the call, make the change, hear the word ect, ect, ect; it's what will be, not what they will to do, but what has been written that they do. ...i'm using "written' as a metaphor, or device for meaning.

Hope that clears my meaning up.

Then faith means nothing, it's simply a by-product of election. If the "U" in TULIP were taught by Paul, why did he put such a emphasis on HAVING faith or BELIEVING? Heck, forget Paul, why did Jesus? Where is it taught that we should simply relax and IF we are elected, it will be shown soon enough?

In fact, why was the Gospel proclaimed at all? If God knows who will and won't be saved and there is nothing we can do about it, why did the apostles and other martyrs die to PROCLAIM the Gospel?

All of Calvinism is refuted within Scripture in certain verses or even whole chapters. Unconditional Election is refuted by the simple fact that the letters and books EXIST. Why write or preach or even attempt to convert if God has already chosen who "will be saved from the foundation of the world"? If the Early Church believed this, it seems redundant to do anything but sit back and wait for converts to find THEM. In fact, to go out and actively attempt to convert those who may be damned, is akin to blasphemy. After all, God has chosen, who are we to attempt to change the hearts of the damned? If Calvin were right, Scripture would be simply one or two lines. Something like "We are at 123 Main St, Jerusalem, Israel. We will be awaiting you. Bring wine."

 

[dadof10]

Please keep in mind that the gospel does not describe an ongoing salvation for say, as much as it describes growth from salvation. This is a big part of the debate. But for the sake of this thread, and to answer your question (whatchman333 may want to answer it his own way) we need to start with what's being said of salvation; that it is a one time event in ones life. At least the awareness and revelation to the one saved is.

Your main point is wrong.

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1Cor. 1;18)

"For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing," (2Cor. 2:15)

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2 12-13)

"Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Rom. 5 9-10)

Nothing about "growth from salvation", just that Paul considering himself and others as going through the PROCESS.

 

[Danus]

Your main point is wrong.

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1Cor. 1;18)

"For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing," (2Cor. 2:15)

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2 12-13)

"Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Rom. 5 9-10)

Nothing about "growth from salvation", just that Paul considering himself and others as going through the PROCESS.

We've already been over this. You see yourself as unsaved, cant know you are saved & hope you might be. I get that.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

In the words of Charles H. Spurgeon, "The strength of our obedience must be gauged by the very point in which it fails." And rest assured, as Spurgeon said many a time, including in the sermon from which I lifted this quote (evening service at the Crystal Palace, April 18, 1867), our strength cannot help be fail. We have no strength of our own, and in our own strength we are also stupid. That is the only explanation I can give for trying the same thing over and over and over again, expecting a different result. That is Chuck Swindoll's definition of insanity.

Man must make several discoveries on his way to salvation. Among them ...

It is important to be justified in the sight of God. A man can claim to be "as good" as anyone else, but justification is about being made right before man, it is about being made right before God, and that is a very different thing.

In any life, there are serious offenses against God which have marred that life. When God begins working on us from outside, by His Holy Spirit, the light shines into those dank, dark places of our soul that we won't look, and perish the thought we would go in there. But we begin to realize how messed up our life is.

It is utterly impossible to hope that, on our own strength or "doing" we can be just before God. Our past is past and unremittable, our present is hardly better than our past and our future, despite our best intentions, will never look as it should in order to win God's favor.

Because of all the other discoveries, we discover also that we are under God's condemnation, not His favor. The truly sad thing about this discovery is, had any time in the past we were condemned by the courts of our country, we would be outraged, but being told we were condemned before the courts of heaven would have caused a laugh, a sarcastic remark, or complete ignorance of the remark.

Romans 5 NASB
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. [Emphasis added]
​

We have no hope in our "obedience." In fact, we are never "obedient" because we simply desire to be obedient. We are obedient because of the inner work of the Holy Spirit who now indwells us, not because of anything we purpose, propose or do. We are the filth of rags without Christ, and without His influence.

---Faith is obedience.

---the Holy Spirit does not "operate" on people separate and apart from His word.


---"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:"

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I like this, and I'd say that's a fair commentary to truth. It also addresses well the accusation that there might not be a reason to care about sin in ones life. Clearly there is.



Please keep in mind that the gospel does not describe an ongoing salvation for say, as much as it describes growth from salvation. This is a big part of the debate. But for the sake of this thread, and to answer your question (whatchman333 may want to answer it his own way) we need to start with what's being said of salvation; that it is a one time event in ones life. At least the awareness and revelation to the one saved is. And so your question, a very good one, is how does God decide who will be saved if they can't effect by merit or works, or some condition they meet to be saved.

The answer is longer than the question, but the short of it is disturbing to most. However here it is. By His own pleasure, will and desire to do so not for that man, but for His glory to all men.

Many find this offensive, but that's really all God has said, or even needs to say to us, because while this thing called Christianity as a religion may be for us, salvation is ultimately NOT ABOUT YOU. (when I say YOU I'm being general to all) It's about God.

To those offended by this some will simply ignore the whole idea of God and salvation, finding other religions that focus on them or no religion at all, or they will choose their own understanding to fit themselves. none of that means they are, or aren't, or won't be saved, but the three main arguments out there to answer your question of how God chooses beyond what he has already said are these.

1. The salvation of individuals is ultimately the result of their choice rather than divine appointment (alone). (We often label this as the Armenian view after Arminius, but it fits with the RCC as well.

2. Election is based upon God foreseeing the faith of certain individuals rather than only being in accordance with His pleasure and merciful will. (This is a skewed Protestant view that is not biblical in any way)

3. Election is conditional, based upon the acceptance of Jesus Christ and not the determination of God, even though God's grace is certainly involved in this process. (This is more in line with the RCC)

There are other points people, make and have made just on this thread. God is arbitrary, or God is unfair, or salvation is a crap shoot based on luck, but none of these fit Gods reasoning either, because God has clearly said that anyone can be saved. He's also said not everyone is, or will be, and he has clearly said all are born into sin and doomed to condemnation, but that he will have mercy on whom he bloody well chooses.

Here are four points about what we do know from the character of God about Gods choosing.

1. Election is grounded in God's moral character (i.e., goodness, compassion, empathy, integrity, non-duplicity, non-favoritism, justice, etc.)

2. God does have "causes and reasons" for His choices, though these are "internal" to God (i.e., not found in the creature). We know He is good and therefore can trust that He would make a better choice than we would.

3. He 'does NOTHING without reason' --- He 'does NOTHING rashly’. He has simply not revealed these reasons and causes to us--although they certainly exist. Since they haven’t been revealed, we cannot try to figure them out but since we know the trustworthiness of God we can rejoice in His wisdom. God does not 'lack just reasons’ for His actions. These 'just reasons' are merely hidden from us.

4. Salvation is not conditioned upon anything that God sees in us that makes us worthy of His choosing us. NONE of His decrees were done except justly and wisely".

It's not a matter of How God chooses, because it's not up to us. But it is evident whom God chooses. It is evident to that person and it is evident in some way to others. Anyone can be saved. Anyone. Seek and you will find. ask and it will be given.

This just puts fault and blame upon God for the lost.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Only if its the Obedience of One, The Lord Jesus Christ, by His one Act of obedience He earned many Salvation, He made them Righteous. Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If we Trust in the obedience or duties of man for Salvation, we are deceived and on that broad road to desdestruction

The first part of the verse says by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were made sinners. By the obedience of one (Christ) many be made righteous.

If "many" were born inheriting Adam's sin unconditionally then that same "many" will be made righteous unconditionally and you have Universalism. But nowhere did Paul say many were made either sinners or righteous unconditionally, randomly or for some unknown reason.

From Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

This verse says "all have sinned" and NOT all have been unconditionally born sinners apart from their own will. So people are made sinners for they have of their own will chose to sin.

Rom 5:1,2 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

To be justified one must have faith, so people are not justified unconditonally, randomly apart from their own will for people choose of their own will to have faith.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

---the Holy Spirit does not "operate" on people separate and apart from His word.

One, operating on an unbeliever to bring him to faith is not separate or apart from His word. Secondly, it is impossible for anyone to be saved without the outside influence of the Holy Spirit, because no one can be saved without the operation of the Holy Spirit. He does not indwell an unbeliever, so He must draw us and call us from without. No one has the ability to seek after God from the flesh. It must be by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

One, operating on an unbeliever to bring him to faith is not separate or apart from His word. Secondly, it is impossible for anyone to be saved without the outside influence of the Holy Spirit, because no one can be saved without the operation of the Holy Spirit. He does not indwell an unbeliever, so He must draw us and call us from without. No one has the ability to seek after God from the flesh. It must be by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit influences people through his word the bible. Example, in the case of the eunuch the Holy SPirit did not influecen the eunuch directly apart from God's word, but sent Phillip to the eunuch to preach to him and it was the preaching that induced a belief in the eunuch. Men do have the power to seek God, (Isa 55:6; Acts 17:27), the eunuch was in a lost state yet reading God's word's 'seeking' to find out Whom the prophet was speaking about..he was seeking for Christ.

So the Holy SPirit does His drawing by the word...."It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." Jn 6:45. So people are drawn when they are taught the word, they hear and learn the word, then they of their own free will cometh to Christ.

You say "it is impossible for anyone to be saved without the outside influence of the Holy Spirit, because no one can be saved without the operation of the Holy Spirit"


If the Holy Spirit had to miraculously operate on people apart from the word, then those lost would be lost due to a failure of the Holy Spirit not 'operating' on them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

bass

The first part of the verse says by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were
made sinners.

Yes, but I am highlighting what the second part says, which is this Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Their personal obedience had nothing to do with being made Righteous before God ! Ane their being made Righteous is their Salvation !

 

[Danus]

This just puts fault and blame upon God for the lost.

Nope. The lost are the lost before they are saved. It gives credit to God for those who are saved and places the blame for the lost with the lost where it always way to begin with.

 

[dadof10]

We've already been over this. You see yourself as unsaved, cant know you are saved & hope you might be. I get that.

No, I see myself as saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13). This is the Biblical view which takes into consideration ALL Scripture teaches on the subject instead of ignoring two-thirds of Scriptural references because they don't fit an a'priori assumption.

 

[Danus]

No, I see myself as saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13). This is the Biblical view which takes into consideration ALL Scripture teaches on the subject instead of ignoring two-thirds of Scriptural references because they don't fit an a'priori assumption.

So you are assured. Great. In other. On conversations you expressed doubts, indicated you can be saved or loose your salvation. I'm glade to see you see that being saved does not mean might be or could be.