Can Obedience To God Earn Salvation?

[Ernest T. Bass]

You've got to be kidding.. sadly, I know that you're not..

Jesus said be born of spirit and water and the water refers to water baptism.

 

[Eventide]

Jesus said be born of spirit and water and the water refers to water baptism.

You sure about that.. ?

The Apostle Peter says that we're born again by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever..

What was he thinking ?

 

[Danus]

Then it should be a joy to answer.. must we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved or not.. ?

Is that conditional or unconditional ?

The title of this thread is designed to indicate a persons concise effort on there own part to be obedient, fall in line, do something by ones on will to do it. That's a theological problem to say that such a thing is a condition of grace & that seems to be what is being said, but it's not that simple.

If someone is working hard to be a Christian by their effort, then they should question their salvation. Salvation is about trusting what Christ has done on behalf of what you can not do, so those who reject that & focus on what they do, do not receive grace. They receive perfect justice & that's OK, but we need to make that clear.

If you are good enough to be saved by what you do or have done then great. I am not so I trust in Jesus and the promise he made.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You sure about that.. ?

The Apostle Peter says that we're born again by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever..

What was he thinking ?

The word of God tells us to be baptized for remission of sins.

Born of spirit and water.

The role of water is water baptism.

The role of the spirit is the spirit is the author of the word. We are, as you pointed out, begotten by the word and agian the word commands water baptism for remission of sins.


The Role of the Holy Spirit

The New Testament makes it clear that the Holy Spirit, operating through the medium of the Word of God, “begets” (in a manner of speaking) the individual who gladly receives that truth. For example, James declares: “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures” (1:18). Further, note Peter’s comment: “[H]aving been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and abides” (1 Peter 1:23). In one of his epistles to Corinth, Paul observes: “For though you have ten thousand tutors in Christ, yet have you not many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I begat you through the gospel” (1 Corinthians 4:15).


To these plain passages add this fact: the Scriptures clearly affirm that the Holy Spirit uses the Word of truth as his instrument of operation upon the human heart (cf. Ephesians 6:17). It thus becomes apparent that the term “Spirit” in John 3:5 is an allusion to the source of the spiritual seed that impacts the human heart by means of the gospel. This represents the initial phase of the conversion process.


[Note: An accurate analysis of John 3:3ff will not allow the view—becoming increasing popular with some—that “Spirit” in John 3:5 refers to a kind of “baptism in the Holy Spirit” (cf. Gibson 1988). The birth from the water is distinct from the implantation of the seed.]


The Water of the New Birth

To what does the word “water” refer in John 3:5? For many centuries following the apostolic age, there was no controversy concerning the significance of “water” in this passage. The “church fathers” clearly understood it to denote baptism. The testimony of Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Cyprian, etc., could be cited to establish this point.


In his monumental work, History of Infant Baptism, William Wall, a leading scholar in the Church of England, asserted that not a single writer of antiquity denied the identification of the “water” of John 3:5 with baptism. He suggested that John Calvin was the first to disassociate the two items, and that Calvin even conceded that his interpretation was “new” (1862, 443).


Of course, subsequent to Calvin, numerous denominational clergymen have denied that baptism is an element of the new birth—and this due, of course, to their doctrinal bias against the necessity of immersion for the remission of sins. On the other hand, many scholars concede that the “water” of this passage is an allusion to baptism—though they would deny the essentiality of the rite as a condition for salvation. Under the term hudor (“water”), William Arndt and F. W. Gingrich note: “Of Christian baptism, the new birth . . . Jn. 3:5” (1967, 840).

It is interesting to reflect upon some of the bizarre speculations that have been offered in order to eliminate water baptism from this context. A few of the novel ideas which attempt to identify the “water” as something other than baptism are as follows:


Some have suggested that “water” is but a symbol for the Spirit himself (cf. Bogard 1938, 138). That would hardly be the case, since the Spirit is already mentioned in the passage. The Lord was not arguing that unless one “be born of Spirit and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”


Others have contended that “water” is a figure for the blood of Christ (cf. Carroll 1978, 292). There is no basis for such a theory. The apostle John, in one of his later writings, clearly distinguishes between water and blood (cf. 1 John 5:8).

Occasionally, it is asserted that the “water” of John 3:5 is a reference to the amniotic fluid that flows from the mother’s body prior to birth. Such a wild view is easily refuted by the fact that whatever the new birth process was, the Jewish ruler had not yet experienced it. Obviously, however, he had been born of his mother already! Moreover, such a theory would suggest that anyone delivered by caesarean section (no water in that procedure) would be ineligible to enter the kingdom of God!


Equally absurd is the view, once advocated by D. A. Carson, which theorizes that the “water” of this passage was a reference to “male semen.” This would have the Lord suggesting that unless one is conceived he cannot enter the kingdom. Is there any un-conceived person on earth? It scarcely needs to be pointed out that such a ridiculous statement would be unworthy of the Son of God. To his credit Carson abandoned that position, though still resisting the correct interpretation (1984, 41-42).


The simple truth of the matter is this: the “water” alluded to in this context is a reference to the water of baptism, which is a necessary act of obedience for those who aspire to enter into the kingdom of heaven. This fact is evidenced by the following considerations:


It is a recognized principle of biblical exegesis that words are to be viewed literally unless there are demands within the immediate or remote context which call for a figurative meaning. There is nothing here or elsewhere that would require a symbolic interpretation of “water” in this passage. Hence, there is no necessity to attach an unusual meaning to the term in John 3:5.


The expression “born of water” is certainly consistent with language employed of baptism in other portions of the New Testament. For example, just as Christ’s resurrection from the dead is declared to be a birth from death (cf. Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5), even so, when one is born of water he is “raised” to walk in newness of life (cf. Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12).


The New Birth: Its Necessity and Composition

By Wayne Jackson

http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/115-the-new-birth-its-necessity-and-composition


Sources/Footnotes

• Arndt, William and F. W. Gingrich. 1967. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. Chicago, IL: University of Chicago.
• Bogard, Ben. 1938. Hardeman-Bogard Debate. Nashville, TN: Gospel Advocate.
• Carroll, B. H. 1978. An Interpretation of the English Bible. Vol. 4. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker.
• Carson, D. A. 1984. Exegetical Fallacies. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker.
• Gibson, Robert Leon. 1988. Christian, You Were Baptized in Water and Spirit. Fort Worth, TX: Star Publications.
• Wall, William. 1862. History of Infant Baptism. Vol. 1. Oxford, England: Oxford University Press.

 

[Eventide]

The title of this thread is designed to indicate a persons concise effort on there own part to be obedient, fall in line, do something by ones on will to do it. That's a theological problem to say that such a thing is a condition of grace & that seems to be what is being said, but it's not that simple.

If someone is working hard to be a Christian by their effort, then they should question their salvation. Salvation is about trusting what Christ has done on behalf of what you can not do, so those who reject that & focus on what they do, do not receive grace. They receive perfect justice & that's OK, but we need to make that clear.

If you are good enough to be saved by what you do or have done then great. I am not so I trust in Jesus and the promise he made.

I can absolutely relate to what you're saying here.. and I would also agree that there are some here who believe that they're saving themselves so to speak.. I could not disagree more with that pov..

Although your reluctance to answer a painfully simple biblical question speaks above all that imo.. and my guess would be that your answer is NO.. that believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is optional..

Just as wrong imo..

Did Adam's fall from disobedience mean nothing..? Should we simply listen to the voices which say that there is nothing that I must do to be saved.. not even BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ ?

 

[Eventide]

The word of God tells us to be baptized for remission of sins.

I would say that the Apostle Peter (the Apostle to the circumcision) tells Israelites to be baptized for the remission of sins..

The Apostle to the Gentiles tells us that we were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise after trusting in Christ, after hearing the word of truth, and that after we believed..

What must I do to be saved ? BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be SAVED.. Whosoever shall CALL UPON the name of the LORD shall be saved..

And the Lord didn't send Paul to BAPTIZE.. but to preach the gospel.. absolutely impossible if salvation comes through water baptism..

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The title of this thread is designed to indicate a persons concise effort on there own part to be obedient, fall in line, do something by ones on will to do it. That's a theological problem to say that such a thing is a condition of grace & that seems to be what is being said, but it's not that simple.

If someone is working hard to be a Christian by their effort, then they should question their salvation. Salvation is about trusting what Christ has done on behalf of what you can not do, so those who reject that & focus on what they do, do not receive grace. They receive perfect justice & that's OK, but we need to make that clear.

If you are good enough to be saved by what you do or have done then great. I am not so I trust in Jesus and the promise he made.

You say " Salvation is about trusting what Christ has done on behalf of what you can not do."

You and I would disagree most likely on what it means to 'trust" Christ. But you trust Christ does this 'trusting' earn your salvation?

You will problem answer 'no'. My point of this thread is that obeying God is no way earns salvation either.

From Rom 4:4, the only way salvation would be of debt and not of grace was if you could keep God's law perfectly thereby making you perfectly sinless. A perefectly sinless person would not need grace his reward is of debt as Paul says.

Abraham sinned, so he could never earn his salvation by sinlessness, but he was one who had an obedient belief. His obedience then could NEVER earn him salvation. Even though Abraham obeyed he still sinned and sin put him in need of grace. "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Lk 17:10. Even though I obey I am still one who sins. Even tough I do what was my duty I am still a unprofitable servant who sins and is in need of grace. So there is not way that obeying, doing one's duty can ever earn salvation. So any argument that the obedience of a unprofitable servant earns salvation is completely wrong.

 

[Danus]

I can absolutely relate to what you're saying here.. and I would also agree that there are some here who believe that they're saving themselves so to speak.. I could not disagree more with that pov..

Although your reluctance to answer a painfully simple biblical question speaks above all that imo.. and my guess would be that your answer is NO.. that believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is optional..

Just as wrong imo..

Did Adam's fall from disobedience mean nothing..? Should we simply listen to the voices which say that there is nothing that I must do to be saved.. not even BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ ?

LOL This is why I take the time to answer you Tide. Your not going to like what i say i fear, but here goes. It's not optional for those who will believe. Come Hell or high water, they will come to God & they will believe, but this is not conditional on them. It's theirs to do by destiny chosen by God to do so. In the broadest since this is the reformed view of those who are saved, who will be.

 

[Eventide]

It's not optional for those who will believe..

Thank you Danus.. I knew you could do it..

Regardless of whether you believe that God chose you so that you would believe.. it's still not optional.. it's conditional.

And yes.. I have had many LOL moments here.

 

[Danus]

You say " Salvation is about trusting what Christ has done on behalf of what you can not do."

You and I would disagree most likely on what it means to 'trust" Christ. But you trust Christ does this 'trusting' earn your salvation?

You will problem answer 'no'. My point of this thread is that obeying God is no way earns salvation either.

From Rom 4:4, the only way salvation would be of debt and not of grace was if you could keep God's law perfectly thereby making you perfectly sinless. A perefectly sinless person would not need grace his reward is of debt as Paul says.

Abraham sinned, so he could never earn his salvation by sinlessness, but he was one who had an obedient belief. His obedience then could NEVER earn him salvation. Even though Abraham obeyed he still sinned and sin put him in need of grace. "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Lk 17:10. Even though I obey I am still one who sins. Even tough I do what was my duty I am still a unprofitable servant who sins and is in need of grace. So there is not way that obeying, doing one's duty can ever earn salvation. So any argument that the obedience of a unprofitable servant earns salvation is completely wrong.

Bass trusting in Christ by faith, that Christ has done for you what you can not do for yourself is salvation. I just want to make what I said clear so you will have a correct full definition of what I wrote. That work ok for you?

 

[WIP]

Just want to take a pause and thank you fellas for this thread and your civility. It really provokes some deep thought, at least for me anyway. Nice job.

 

[Danus]

Thank you Danus.. I knew you could do it..

Regardless of whether you believe that God chose you so that you would believe.. it's still not optional.. it's conditional.

And yes.. I have had many LOL moments here.

Ok I'll give you that one. That is as conditional as me having feet I order to buy shoes. Fair enough.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I would say that the Apostle Peter (the Apostle to the circumcision) tells Israelites to be baptized for the remission of sins..

The Apostle to the Gentiles tells us that we were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise after trusting in Christ, after hearing the word of truth, and that after we believed..

What must I do to be saved ? BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be SAVED.. Whosoever shall CALL UPON the name of the LORD shall be saved..

And the Lord didn't send Paul to BAPTIZE.. but to preach the gospel.. absolutely impossible if salvation comes through water baptism..

Peter commanded the Gentiles the same thing in Acts 10:47,48 (water baptism) as he did the Jews in Acts 2:38. In Acts 15:11 Peter says Jews and Gentiles are saved in like manner and water baptism in the name of the LOrd for remission of sins is that like manner way for the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10.


Paul taught the same thing as Peter did in Acts 2:38 else Paul was preaching a false gospel.

Gal 1:23 "But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed."

Saul once persecuted the church at Jerusalem. But Paul now preacheth (present tense) the faith he once detroyed.

The faith refers to the NT system of faith found from Matthew to Revelation. As Jude said to contend for THE faith. The faith at the church in Jerusalem consisted of Acts 2:38 and Acts 2:38 is the faith that Saul once destroyed but Paul now preaches.

So not only did Paul preach Acts 2:38 he obeyed it himself, Acts 22:16, he taught the necessity of water baptism, Col 2:11,12; 1 Cor 1:12,13; Rom 6:3-5; Gal 3:27, etc, he baptized others himself, 1 Cor 1;14,16.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Bass trusting in Christ by faith, that Christ has done for you what you can not do for yourself is salvation. I just want to make what I said clear so you will have a correct full definition of what I wrote. That work ok for you?

But does your trusting by faith earn salvation for you?

 

[Eventide]

Peter commanded the Gentiles the same thing in Acts 10:47,48 (water baptism) as he did the Jews in Acts 2:38. In Acts 11:15 Peter says Jews and Gentiles are saved in like manner and water baptism in the name of the LOrd for remission of sins is that like manner way for the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10.


Paul taught the same thing as Peter did in Acts 2:38 else Paul was preaching a false gospel.

Gal 1:23 "But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed."

Saul once persecuted the church at Jerusalem. But Paul now preacheth (present tense) the faith he once detroyed.

The faith refers to the NT system of faith found from Matthew to Revelation. As Jude said to contend for THE faith. The faith at the church in Jerusalem consisted of Acts 2:38 and Acts 2:38 is the faith the Saul once destroyed but Paul now preaches.

So not only did Paul preach Acts 2:38 he obeyed it himself, Acts 22:16, he taught the necessity of water baptism, Col 2:11,12; 1 Cor 1:12,13; Rom 6:3-5; Gal 3:27, etc, he baptized others himself, 1 Cor 1;14,16.

I know.. GENTILES receiving the Holy Spirit of God BEFORE they were baptized has nothing to do with salvation, right ?

Remind me to ignore that biblical precedent and just tell everyone that unless they're baptized in water they can't be saved.. forget about believing on Christ, or calling upon the name of the LORD.. without you getting wet you just can't be saved..

I'll leave it at that for now.. busy afternoon ahead.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I know.. GENTILES receiving the Holy Spirit of God BEFORE they were baptized has nothing to do with salvation, right ?

Remind me to ignore that biblical precedent and just tell everyone that unless they're baptized in water they can't be saved.. forget about believing on Christ, or calling upon the name of the LORD.. without you getting wet you just can't be saved..

I'll leave it at that for now.. busy afternoon ahead.

There is nothing in the context in Acts 10 or 11 that says the Gentiles would be saved by being baptized with the Holy Spirit. Nowhere does the bible say baptism with the Holy Spirit remits sins/saves. The context does tell us how Cornelius would be saved, he would be saved by "...words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved." Peter would preach words, the gospel message and it is by these words, Rom 1:16 , of the gospel is how Cornelius would be saved. And obeying the gospel consist of obeying the gospel's command to be water baptized.


QUESTION: does being saved require one be baptized with the Holy Spirit? Or in other words, can one be saved and not be baptized with the Holy Spirit?

 

[Danus]

But does your trusting by faith earn salvation for you?

It is salvation. Nothing to earn. Even the trust is not earned, it's provided for free to anyone who will come to God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It is salvation. Nothing to earn. Even the trust is not earned, it's provided for free to anyone who will come to God.

Then if your trusting does not earn salvatin then my obedience would not earn salvation either.

 

[Danus]

Then if your trusting does not earn salvatin then my obedience would not earn salvation either.

How dose one earn what they already have? Are you trying to earn your salvation? If so then you are correct.

 

[dadof10]

It is salvation. Nothing to earn. Even the trust is not earned, it's provided for free to anyone who will come to God.

It sounds to me like you're saying we have to earn the "trusting" by coming to God.