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Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

Solo said:
With your understanding that one can fall from salvation, one must "invent" a means by which one can be "re-converted". There can be no "re-conversion" to become born of God, born again.

The reason you have problems with the idea of falling from salvation is because you see it as ONLY a one-time event...

Do you also think a person can only become sick once in their lives? Is there a need to be cured again?

Apparently, Jesus thought so.

And when an unclean spirit is gone out of a man he walketh through dry places seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith: I will return into my house from whence I came out. And coming he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then he goeth, and taketh with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man in made worse than the first. Mat 12:43-45

So did Peter...

For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

Read 2 Peter again carefully. Note, it says that a person had gained the knowledge of Christ once - and CHOSE to turn his back on the holy commandments delivered to him. You are sadly mistaken if you think you cannot fall away...

Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall. 1 Cor 10:12

Your theology is exactly what leads to presumption, thinking we no longer have to watch and persevere. The devil would love to hear such theology...

Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour 1 Peter 5:8

Regards
 
My physician Jesus Christ is powerful enough to save me one time forever by His work on the Cross.

If you do not care to believe in Jesus to do as he says, keep going to the priests of the RCC for atonement. If you end up in a place a little warmer than you thought purgatory should be, remember I told you so.
 
francisdesales said:
The reason you have problems with the idea of falling from salvation is because you see it as ONLY a one-time event...

Do you also think a person can only become sick once in their lives? Is there a need to be cured again?

Apparently, Jesus thought so.

And when an unclean spirit is gone out of a man he walketh through dry places seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith: I will return into my house from whence I came out. And coming he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then he goeth, and taketh with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man in made worse than the first. Mat 12:43-45

So did Peter...

For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. 2 Peter 2:20-21

Read 2 Peter again carefully. Note, it says that a person had gained the knowledge of Christ once - and CHOSE to turn his back on the holy commandments delivered to him. You are sadly mistaken if you think you cannot fall away...

Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall. 1 Cor 10:12

Your theology is exactly what leads to presumption, thinking we no longer have to watch and persevere. The devil would love to hear such theology...

Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour 1 Peter 5:8

Regards
This is the way I interpret scripture too, but I see salvation as a one time event with perserverance through obedience following it. When I attended the little baptist church down the road from us, I saw no difference in most of the people and the world, my son even noticed it when he attended bible school there.
Now I have a clue as to why that was. My guess is they are being taught that they can sin all they want and still be headed for glory.
I see this as a very destructive demonic doctrine, and those who feel they 'want' to sin all they want are probably not, nor ever were, saved. I can also see how such a belief would cause one to fall away.
 
Solo said:
My physician Jesus Christ is powerful enough to save me one time forever by His work on the Cross.

If you do not care to believe in Jesus to do as he says, keep going to the priests of the RCC for atonement. If you end up in a place a little warmer than you thought purgatory should be, remember I told you so.

What on earth are you talking about?

First, I have not mentioned anything about the Catholic Church in this conversation.

Secondly, I have quoted you JESUS CHRIST'S OWN WORDS from Matthew 12 about the necessity of being healed AGAIN.

Thirdly, what about 2 Peter? You seem to have a knack for ignoring Scriptures you don't like...

Don't you see that man can refuse the graces of the Holy Spirit? Do you think that God forces people into heaven? The God of Love? You have an odd idea of what love is, don't you...

Regards
 
.

I say if OSAS is true then what happened to Lucifer, the angel who resided IN heaven, but then "fell from heaven"? I truly beleive that once we are in heaven we can even lose our salvation IF we think our own WILL is ever allowed to take over with some slight transgression. Holiness is white... not spotted. And we must diligently seek to NOT engage in any sin, no matter how small. I beleive that to continue in a sin without repentance... we do not find any form of salvation. How can you have salvation from a transgression if there is not any repentance of it?

If OSAS goes without a doubt no matter how much sin is still in your life after you say you have accepted Christ Jesus into your heart and have been baptised (in ritual), then what about the person(s) who sin and think nothing of it? They think if they sin it's okay because God forgives them. But they continue in sin without repentance OF that very sin because they think it is forgiven without having to make any changes in regards to it. They think to continue is okay because all men are sinners and there's nothing they can do about that. They think that they have Christ Jesus as the one who took upon himself all their sins for them. But then they think..... it's okay Jesus carries the burden of it. I can still do my party hardy stuff because the bible says 'all men are sinner' anyway. That type of attitude, are they in the category of OSAS?

Some people will say, well those who continue in sin like that were never really saved in the first place. Others would say, they are still saved, Paul had a thorn in his flesh, and besides, Jesus took their sin to the cross. They need not do anything else, because it's taken care of.

Then there are these types who are struggling with sin to be gone from out of their lives, but find they just can't get rid of it. People like the alcoholic.... the fornicator, the person who is a compulsive thief, the person who is a compulsive liar, the person who is a glutton, the person who is lazy, a sloth etc, those who know they are having problems with sin but are seeking to be rid of it but find no relief... those people who are attending church have said, they asked the Lord to take away that sin, but they still have problems with it, they just don't know how to discipline themselves. What about them? They are asking God to take that sin away from them but find it still in their lives? Their faith is lacking. Are they in the category of OSAS?


If all people who claim they accepted Christ Jesus into their lives were OSAS, then why is it that some people end up in hell thinking they were OSAS?
Jesus says in Matthew 7:22-23
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Why is it that people don't take into account their obligation to self discipline? why is it that people think that even though sin is there in their lives, they need not do anything about it because they think they have this seal of salvation upon them that no matter what they do for the rest of their lives, they are still saved and no problem then.... they can sin without consequence of acting upon it, or for having an accountability for it?


I believe the one who does NOT repent and thinks they are OSAS is in for a surprise at judgement day.

The one who DOES repentance for each act of sin they find themselves to have done, is truly a person after God's heart. King David is our example of a man who was a sinner, but yet he was grievous over those sins, he had remorse, the asked for forgiveness and found it. I don't think King David set out to continue IN that same sin he was found of.
So, there in lies the difference of a person who is Saved and one who is only fooling their own self by continuing IN the sin they have found themselves to be in.


OSAS vs. One can lose their salvation..... The difference lies in if are you truly Repentant of the sin you are found to have done, or not and think you can get away with that same sin each and every time. Do repeat offenders have a true repentance? 70x7... I believe, yes (for the repentant ones) , but then why does Jesus say in Matthew 7:22-23 "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" IF OSAS is valid for those who think they can still sin and not be repentant about it?
Those who are not in a interactive true "relationship" with Christ and just think they are saved without having to abide by any other scritpures, are in my opinion, lost and mislead.
We are ALL Obligated to have works along with the faith of the things hoped for which are not yet seen. In other words, responsibility and self discipline to DO what is considered the righteousness of God, and to not continue in the sins that have been revealed to us. That is sign of true repentance and an honest, integral walk in ones claim to Christianity.

James 2:18-20
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?




We must not walk in the lie, but we must deny the lie and walk in truth.


P.S.
please excuse, I didn't have the time to edit this posting for redundancy, I hope it's not too much. Do you forgive me? :oops:
 
destiny said:
My guess is they are being taught that they can sin all they want and still be headed for glory.
I see this as a very destructive demonic doctrine, and those who feel they 'want' to sin all they want are probably not, nor ever were, saved. I can also see how such a belief would cause one to fall away.


That is my biggest concern about the OSAS doctrine. Not only is it not Scriptural, it sounds too "American", if you get my drift.

"Let's make things really easy and effortless so we can get on with our lives..."

A total disdain for the Scriptures call for BECOMING another Christ. A total disregard for discipleship - as defined by such great Protestants as Wesley or Boenhoffer.

WHY PERSEVERE?

This falls on deaf ears for those who subscribe to the OSAS fallacy.

"with fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will." Phil 2:12-13

Regards
 
destiny said:
This is the way I interpret scripture too, but I see salvation as a one time event with perserverance through obedience following it. When I attended the little baptist church down the road from us, I saw no difference in most of the people and the world, my son even noticed it when he attended bible school there.
Now I have a clue as to why that was. My guess is they are being taught that they can sin all they want and still be headed for glory.
I see this as a very destructive demonic doctrine, and those who feel they 'want' to sin all they want are probably not, nor ever were, saved. I can also see how such a belief would cause one to fall away.
How do you justify your sinning? Are you still going to enter into Heaven? Have you been born of God? If so, then why have you continued to sin? Are the sins that you committed after being born again all confessed? If not, are you bound for hell?

Salvation comes when one is born again, and being born again of God cannot be outdone for Jesus Christ has paid the price necessary to justify all believers from all of their sin, past, present and future. Believe it or not, it is your choice.

The doctrine that you can you can lose your salvation is a demonic doctrine invented so that the devil can keep those under his bondage of works salvation. What a pity.
 
francisdesales said:
That is my biggest concern about the OSAS doctrine. Not only is it not Scriptural, it sounds too "American", if you get my drift.

"Let's make things really easy and effortless so we can get on with our lives..."

A total disdain for the Scriptures call for BECOMING another Christ. A total disregard for discipleship - as defined by such great Protestants as Wesley or Boenhoffer.

WHY PERSEVERE?

This falls on deaf ears for those who subscribe to the OSAS fallacy.

"with fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will." Phil 2:12-13

Regards
Yes absolutely, Joe.... And also great post Relic, with some very good points.

OSAS vs. One can lose their salvation..... The difference lies in if are you truly Repentant of the sin you are found to have done, or not and think you can get away with that same sin each and every time. Do repeat offenders have a true repentance? 70x 7 yes, but then why does Jesus say in Matthew 7:22-23 "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" if OSAS is valid for those who think they can still sin and not be repentant about it? Those who are not in a interactive true "relationship" with Christ and just think they are saved without having to abide by any other scritpures, are in my opinion, lost and mislead.

Amen, Relic....pretty scary stuff
 
You LYS crew don't understand the great Grace of God in His justification of sinners. I am almost appalled at the ignorance of His word by those who claim to live by it.

Those who sin each and every day, but refuse to admit it, will tell others that they can lose their salvation, but they themselves are safe because they do everything right and never miss an unconfessed sin that they habitually perform.

What utter rubbish.
 
Solo said:
You LYS crew don't understand the great Grace of God in His justification of sinners. I am almost appalled at the ignorance of His word by those who claim to live by it.

Those who sin each and every day, but refuse to admit it, will tell others that they can lose their salvation, but they themselves are safe because they do everything right and never miss an unconfessed sin that they habitually perform.

What utter rubbish.

Solo, I believe the difference is whether one is repentant of their sins or not.

The unrepentant cannot find salvation from sin because they don't seek it. How can anyone have salvation from a sin if they continue acting on the sin without seeking to turn away from it?

For someone to think they can continue in a sin without repentance is totally contradictory to scripture that says "go and sin no more".

The key is sincerely seeking to Repent.


.


.
 
Relic said:
Solo, I believe the difference is whether one is repentant of their sins or not.

The unrepentant cannot find salvation from sin because they don't seek it. How can anyone have salvation from a sin if they continue acting on the sin without seeking to turn away from it?

For someone to think they can continue in a sin without repentance is totally contradictory to scripture that says "go and sin no more".

The key is sincerely seeking to Repent.


.


.
Unfortunately we are not relieved of this sinful corrupt corpse called the flesh until the day of redemption. Those who have not been born again have no other manner to live than in the flesh. Those who have been born again have the battle going on within them as Paul speaks of in Romans 7. Who is going to save us from this wretched corpse that we live in which is sold under sin. Jesus Christ has, and by believing on His name we are saved, no longer condemned, but sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption when the corrupt flesh will put on incorruption, and the mortal flesh will put on immortality, and the New Body will unite with the New Man soul and forever be with the Lord.

Those who are born again are sealed by God Himself until we are redeemed at the return of Jesus Christ.
 
I guess the biggest problem I have with OSAS is that it can teach a feeling of complacenty. You may come back at me and say if that is the case, the person wasn't truly born again and then we can begin the cycle all over again.

Yes I do belive that at my infant babtism I was, "...baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life" And also that John 10:27-30 gives me great assurance that at the times when my faith and love for my Lord waiver, his love for me does not. I just fear that teaching someone just OSAS can cause some to become complacent in their faith and not partake of the means of grace (His word, communion) regularly because they feel they don't need to because they have already been saved...
 
Fnerb said:
I guess the biggest problem I have with OSAS is that it can teach a feeling of complacenty. You may come back at me and say if that is the case, the person wasn't truly born again and then we can begin the cycle all over again.

Yes I do belive that at my infant babtism I was, "...baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life" And also that John 10:27-30 gives me great assurance that at the times when my faith and love for my Lord waiver, his love for me does not. I just fear that teaching someone just OSAS can cause some to become complacent in their faith and not partake of the means of grace (His word, communion) regularly because they feel they don't need to because they have already been saved...

I was baptized as an infant and was on my way to hell because of never having been born again. There is not one instance in Scripture where an infant was baptized and saved.

I became a born of God, born again believer at the age of 28 years old after which I became baptized, and a follower of Jesus Christ.
 
Solo said:
I was baptized as an infant and was on my way to hell because of never having been born again. There is not one instance in Scripture where an infant was baptized and saved.

I became a born of God, born again believer at the age of 28 years old after which I became baptized, and a follower of Jesus Christ.

Well, baptism is most definatly a means of grace. And baptism does save...1 Peter 3:18-22 assures us of that.
 
oscar3 said:
Hello Jay T

15–20 “Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity (jAY t). Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don’t be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned.
21–23 “Knowing the correct passwordâ€â€saying ‘Master, Master,’ for instanceâ€â€isn’t going to get you anywhere with me. What is required is serious obedienceâ€â€doing what my Father wills. I can see it nowâ€â€at the Final Judgment thousands strutting up to me and saying, ‘Master, we preached the Message, we bashed the demons, our God-sponsored projects had everyone talking.’ And do you know what I am going to say? ‘You missed the boat. All you did was use me to make yourselves important. You don’t impress me one bit. You’re out of here.’


I never knew you.
God spoke this to the people who DISOBEYED HIS Commandments, which is what sin is.

So, I will ask you what Jesus aksed others......
8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with [his] finger wrote on the ground, [as though he heard them not].
8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
8:9 And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.


OR, in other words, He that lives in a glass house should not throw stones.
 
francisdesales said:
Think about it. What is the opposite of the love Chirst displayed? Hatred? No. It is selfishness, a concern for one's own comfort above all else. The OSAS theology goes hand-in-glove with this "American" attitude. "Give me my bus ticket to heaven now, so I can continue gratifying myself". "Ah, now that I have heaven guaranteed, now I can get on with my life of fun".

Fasting and sacrifice is largely unheard of anymore among most Christians...

UGH. What a total flipflop of the Gospel.

Regards

This is precisely the part of OSAS that worries me. So many Christians just "ask Jesus into their heart" and then that's it ... they think that is the end of it.

This is a tough subject because predesination is taught in the bible and is meant to give Christians comfort. (Ephesians 1: 3-14) Yet at the same time, the same author warns us, "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!" (1 Corinthians 10:12)

Not an easy subject on either side...
 
Salvation is not just asking Jesus into your heart.

Once one is saved, they are saved forever according to the promise of God almighty. Once one understand what God requires for one to be saved, then everything else falls into place. Those who do not have God's salvation figured out are still living in chaos.

Note: Do not corrupt the truth of salvation with the destruction of the flesh.
 
Solo said:
Salvation is not just asking Jesus into your heart.

I concur

Solo said:
Once one is saved, they are saved forever according to the promise of God almighty. Once one understand what God requires for one to be saved, then everything else falls into place. Those who do not have God's salvation figured out are still living in chaos.

Note: Do not corrupt the truth of salvation with the destruction of the flesh.

Wouldn't that person technically be saved before they are even born? (Romans 8: 28-30) I'm not trying to hijack the thread and turn this into a predesination vs. fatalism discussion. But I do believe that it is our own sinful flesh that creates these doubts and fears that we are possibly not saved, or possibly don't believe enough to be saved when the bible clearly tells us we are.
 
Fnerb said:
This is a tough subject because predesination is taught in the bible and is meant to give Christians comfort. (Ephesians 1: 3-14) Yet at the same time, the same author warns us, "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!" (1 Corinthians 10:12)

Not an easy subject on either side...

Predestination is a mystery that is beyond man. WE can claim all we want that we are of the elect of God to heaven or are predestined to heaven, but that is presuming to know the mind of God before He has even judged us. GOD certainly knows who are predestined for heaven, but no one here on earth can say whether THEY are of God's elect. Making a self-claim is pointless. IF even ONE person who makes a self-claim falls away from Christ, the whole idea is false.

Regards
 
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