Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[jgredline]

A most interesting thread that I have first read through, and I have a couple of questions:

1. You speak of "True Christians." How does one determine if they are a "true Christian" or not? HOw does one really know? For me, I still have the tendency to sin, even while I believe I am "saved" in the Protestant/Evangelist sense, being a former Fundamentalist myself.

2. I have on my hard-drive, scriptural clips that are quite powerful that seems to refute the idea that when "Once saved, always saved." (OSAS)Can the following scriptural quotes be explained in the light of OSAS?


WHY THERE IS NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION


Mt 10:22
But whoever holds out till the end will escape death. (NAB)

Hello William
While I do not have time to go through this massive list, I will arleast attempt to answer one for now

Matt 10:21-23 nkjv
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

I went back to v21 to capture the context of this verse....
First of all Jesus tells The disciples that would be hated by ''all'' Not by some, but by ''ALL''.....“But he who endures to the end will be saved.†Taken by itself, this could seem to imply that salvation can be earned by ''WORKS'' because of the phraze ''He who edures''. We know it cannot mean this because throughout the Scriptures salvation is presented as a free gift of God’s grace through faith (Eph. 2:8, 9). The previous verse predicts the death of some faithful disciples. So the verse is not speaking of physical death... What this verse simply means is this...'

He that endureth to the end shall be saved is a promise of perseverance, not a teaching that salvation may be lost. Rather, it indicates that those who are truly saved will indeed endure to the end.

 

[jgredline]

Re: reply

William, Remember we must interpret scripture in context. For example, in Matt. 24:13, Jesus is talking about the seven year tribulation, in which believers will be raptured up to heaven wiith the dead in Christ first, then the living. I just had time to briefly read your post. Later, I will take one verse at a time.


May God bless, golfjack

Thank You!!!!!

 

[William Putnam]

Re: reply

William, Remember we must interpret scripture in context. For example, in Matt. 24:13, Jesus is talking about the seven year tribulation, in which believers will be raptured up to heaven wiith the dead in Christ first, then the living. I just had time to briefly read your post. Later, I will take one verse at a time.


May God bless, golfjack

How do you know that for one who "holds out to the end" that the "end" is the beginning of the so called "rapture," a doctrine that has yet to be presented to me in belief?

Here is a good read on that subject:

http://www.catholic.com/library/rapture.asp

As as you probably had conjectured correctly, as a Catholic, I am Amillinialist. In other words, the "end" in the scripture quote in question is simply the end of the world, when Christ comes a second time.

So, sorry if I reject the "rapture" explanation, itself a controversal new age doctrine that, in my humble opinion, was never seen in the writings of the early fathers, let alone in any Church decree or Church council pronouncement. In other words, the "rapture" is a novel idea that came only in the past 20 or so years!

As for context, please provide some for the other quotes I gave. But I would suggest you note that in all cases, the quthor is speaking to already "saved" and baptized Christians.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[JM]

HEY BILL! Where in the world have you been?

I have only 2 questions Bill,

1/ How do you understand Hebrews 6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost....to renew them again unto repentance...." This passage seems to teach that "if" we fall away it's impossible to bring about repentance...are you willing to admit that?

2/ In Hebrews 10 we read, "11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" According to THIS passage, how many offerings does Christ make for sin, how many times is the blood of Christ offered for the sinner? [This passage also destroys transubstantiation but I digress.]

Peace,

~JM~
Poster Formerly Known As Scofield

 

[jgredline]

A most interesting thread that I have first read through, and I have a couple of questions:

1. You speak of "True Christians." How does one determine if they are a "true Christian" or not? HOw does one really know? For me, I still have the tendency to sin, even while I believe I am "saved" in the Protestant/Evangelist sense, being a former Fundamentalist myself.

William
As I re-read your post here the part that stood out to me was the part in bold.

For now, I will repost this for you to read. It comes down to a proper understanding of Justification. I pray that this commentary that I put together will help you to understand ''Why a Child of God will not, can not loose his salvation''


While having another conversation with another member here, this topic came up. I have decided to copy it over here but with some changes to it. Here is my post from the other thread….

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=15

Where in the world did you come up with this? I will take a guess and say that you took what I said in the other thread out of context....Its ok we will use this opportunity to explain why we need to have a solid understanding of the Bible. First of all, there is no such thing as ‘’cheap Grace’’....None the less you said that ''it allows for walking in the flesh and a sinful lifestyle''

Now let me explain my position on this….
1 John 3:4 nkjv
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Destiny..The Greek word for commits is ''ποιέω'' This word means ‘’practices, willfull’’ or ‘’Habitually’’..In other words a Christian will not be practicing sin. If a ''Christian'' is practicing sin or is habitually willfully sinning, then John tells us that this person is not a Child of God...In other words, this person has never been born from above....This is what I believe as this is what the scripture teaches...

The real question is what is a backsliding Christian? Is there really such a thing? A better word for backsliding would be ''unfaithfulness''
Who in history have been the most unfaithful to God?..Who has backslid the most? Would it be fair to say Israel? You bet...How about King David?...A man after Gods own heart. Did David loose his salvation? What about Sampson, What about Solomon?, what about Peter by denying Jesus 3 times?...That was as big a backslide or as ‘’unfaithful’’ as one gets....You see a true believer will always come back to Christ...Simply look at the story of the prodigal son...
You see the bible teaches that once one is justified, he is saved...By your logic those folks I mentioned would be born again and then unborn again and so forth...This is not taught anyware in scripture....



Now, I want to point out a couple of things on justification....


Now for the sake of context I’m posting the complete section of Scripture but only want to comment on three verses for now……
Romans 5:12-20 nkjv
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In verse 16 the Greek word for Justification is ‘’ δικαίωμα’’ (dikaioma )…This one word is very rich in meaning…When Paul uses this word here, he is emphatic in his speech…Here is the definition of this very word…
1 that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law. 1A what has been established, and ordained by law, an ordinance. 1B a judicial decision, sentence. 1B1 of God. 1B1A either the favourable judgment by which he acquits man and declares them acceptable to Him.

In other words, Paul is saying that now that you are justified it is as Good as Law that was set up by God. It is covenant between God and the person whom is Justified…God has used his signet ring and has sealed this person with the Holy Spirit….


In Verse 18 Paul uses a different Greek word for Justification…Here he uses the word
‘’ δικαίωσις’’ (dikaiosis ) Now why did Paul use a different word here…You see our English translations don’t do us justice here…The English uses the same word when the Greek uses a different word for justification in each verse…OK back to the topic at hand…In verse 18, Pauls is saying this ….1 the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him. 2 abjuring to be righteous, justification.

So again Paul is emphatic here. He is now saying that we are now made righteous and with out blemish and can now be presented to God clothed in the righteousness of Christ.….Since we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, VERSE 16 and made Righteous VERSE 18, It’s a done deal…
I will also mention the the exact opposite of Justification is Condemnation…Paul purposely uses condemnation and justification is the same sentences to get his point across emphatically…


Verse 20 simply means this…. The Greek term Paul uses means "superabounded." Πλεονάζω’’ (pleonazo ) Not only can sin never exceed the grace provided by God, sin loses its threat when compared to the superabounding grace of God

 

[William Putnam]

HEY BILL! Where in the world have you been?

I have only 2 questions Bill,

1/ How do you understand Hebrews 6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost....to renew them again unto repentance...." This passage seems to teach that "if" we fall away it's impossible to bring about repentance...are you willing to admit that?

The implication is, there is a sin that, if committed, it is impossible to repent from and restore salvation - The so called "unforgivable sin." As I understand it, it is a direct affront and sin against the Holy Spirit. Most scholars, I understand, sees this as an example of scriptural hyperbole, that in reality, all sins can be forgiven, but this one is the most dangerious. I take that position myself. The point is, if a "truly saved" Christian can commit this sin, then there is no such thing as "once saved, always saved."

2/ In Hebrews 10 we read, "11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" According to THIS passage, how many offerings does Christ make for sin, how many times is the blood of Christ offered for the sinner? [This passage also destroys transubstantiation but I digress.]

Peace,

~JM~
Poster Formerly Known As Scofield

First of all, your second quote has nothing at all to do with the point I have been trying to make. We both understand and agree that Christ's salvation is once and for all!

But free will of choice is not abridged and we can still choose to reject Him, after having once accepted Him as our Lord and Savior. Christ's promise does not change, but our own choices can and do change.

Some one in this thread spoke that "Jesus does not stand by the book of life "with a big eraser in hand" to rub-out the sinner from the Book of Life that is once saved, yet sins greviously once again and does not repent. I would counter there we, ourselves, are our "own erasers" who can do that to ourselves!

Finally, where have I been? Busy in CARM! That is a wild and wooly conference if there ever was one, especially the Catholic forum!

Every once in a while I have to pull away and "smell the roses" as it were, for the Advent season of Christmas. (I will probably return after the New Year.)

"Schofield"? Yes, I think I remember that handle!

May the blessings of the Christ Child come to you and yours, sir!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[William Putnam]

Mortal and Venial sins

William Putnam wrote:

A most interesting thread that I have first read through, and I have a couple of questions:

1. You speak of "True Christians." How does one determine if they are a "true Christian" or not? HOw does one really know? For me, I still have the tendency to sin, even while I believe I am "saved" in the Protestant/Evangelist sense, being a former Fundamentalist myself.

William
As I re-read your post here the part that stood out to me was the part in bold.

For now, I will repost this for you to read. It comes down to a proper understanding of Justification. I pray that this commentary that I put together will help you to understand ''Why a Child of God will not, can not loose his salvation''

OK, I am all ears (or eyes in this case)…

While having another conversation with another member here, this topic came up. I have decided to copy it over here but with some changes to it. Here is my post from the other thread….

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=15

Where in the world did you come up with this? I will take a guess and say that you took what I said in the other thread out of context....Its ok we will use this opportunity to explain why we need to have a solid understanding of the Bible. First of all, there is no such thing as ‘’cheap Grace’’....None the less you said that ''it allows for walking in the flesh and a sinful lifestyle''

I looked at that link, and I am a bit confused as to where you are going, but I will read on…

Now let me explain my position on this….
1 John 3:4 nkjv
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Be very careful here, as John says something else in his book in 1 John 5:16-17 that does two things:

1. Speaking to already “saved†born-again Christians (in the context) he speaks of a brother whose sin is “not deadly.†He then goes further to speak of sin that is “deadly†of his audience, “saved,†born again Christians cannot loose their salvation through “sin that is deadly�

2. That there is a differentiation of sin into classes - Sin that is deadly and sin that is not deadly. In the Catholic Church, we call then respectively, mortal sins and venial sins. But I digress here…

So, is there an apparent contradiction with what John is saying here? Is it possible, in the light of the opposing verses I give you here, that John is speaking of the ideal case in that a Christian “born of God†does not sin? In verse 7 which you continued with, you see this sense that the ideal case can be departed from by his admonishment to his followers “let no one deceive you.†Why is this spoken of here if such deception cannot lead to your loss of salvation?

Destiny..The Greek word for commits is ''ποιέω'' This word means ‘’practices, willfull’’ or ‘’Habitually’’..In other words a Christian will not be practicing sin. If a ''Christian'' is practicing sin or is habitually willfully sinning, then John tells us that this person is not a Child of God...In other words, this person has never been born from above....This is what I believe as this is what the scripture teaches...

The real question is what is a backsliding Christian? Is there really such a thing? A better word for backsliding would be ''unfaithfulness''

Yes indeed, even if one commits one of the deadly sins spoken of by John in 1 John!

Examples of a deadly sin: murder, adultery, stealing (as from a poor family), or, in other words the sins spoken of in the Ten Commandments.

Who in history have been the most unfaithful to God?..Who has backslid the most? Would it be fair to say Israel? You bet...How about King David?...A man after Gods own heart. Did David loose his salvation? What about Sampson, What about Solomon?, what about Peter by denying Jesus 3 times?...That was as big a backslide or as ‘’unfaithful’’ as one gets....You see a true believer will always come back to Christ...Simply look at the story of the prodigal son...

Funny you should mention David, but you will note that David asked God for forgiveness!

God forgave him, but if you will permit me to digress once more, notice that God still punished him by taking away his son in death. That leads to another interesting subject we can pursue sometime!

You see the bible teaches that once one is justified, he is saved...By your logic those folks I mentioned would be born again and then unborn again and so forth...This is not taught anyware in scripture....

Read John 20:22-23 and give me your assessment as to why Jesus would give this awesome power the the apostles! I would suggest that you need to read once more, those quotes I gave initially, as they have scarcely been addressed by anyone yet.

Now, I want to point out a couple of things on justification....

Now for the sake of context I’m posting the complete section of Scripture but only want to comment on three verses for now……
Romans 5:12-20 nkjv
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In verse 16 the Greek word for Justification is ‘’ δικαίωμα’’ (dikaioma )…This one word is very rich in meaning…When Paul uses this word here, he is emphatic in his speech…Here is the definition of this very word…
1 that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law. 1A what has been established, and ordained by law, an ordinance. 1B a judicial decision, sentence. 1B1 of God. 1B1A either the favourable judgment by which he acquits man and declares them acceptable to Him.

In other words, Paul is saying that now that you are justified it is as Good as Law that was set up by God. It is covenant between God and the person whom is Justified…God has used his signet ring and has sealed this person with the Holy Spirit….

One question. Can one who is justified, at some future time, cease to be justified by sin?

In Verse 18 Paul uses a different Greek word for Justification…Here he uses the word
‘’ δικαίωσις’’ (dikaiosis ) Now why did Paul use a different word here…You see our English translations don’t do us justice here…The English uses the same word when the Greek uses a different word for justification in each verse…OK back to the topic at hand…In verse 18, Pauls is saying this ….1 the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him. 2 abjuring to be righteous, justification.

OK…

So again Paul is emphatic here. He is now saying that we are now made righteous and with out blemish and can now be presented to God clothed in the righteousness of Christ.….Since we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, VERSE 16 and made Righteous VERSE 18, It’s a done deal…
I will also mention the the exact opposite of Justification is Condemnation…Paul purposely uses condemnation and justification is the same sentences to get his point across emphatically…

Insofar as one is in a “state of grace†as we Catholics would call the condition that Paul speaks of here, such a one certainly will achieve heaven at his or her death. But in my humble opinion, that is not the slightest hint that Paul is speaking of a condition that we, ourselves, cannot mar by sin. God will keep His promise if we remain in the state Paul speaks of here! Wonderful for all who can remain in this state, in justification and without sin, to the point of death and a glorious reward to heaven!

But let repeat what else Paul wrote:

Rom 5:2
... we boast of our hope for the glory of God. (NAB)

Rom 8:24-25
In hope we are saved. But hope is not hope if its object is
seen; how is it possible to hope for what he sees? And hoping
for what we cannot see means awaiting it with patient
endurance. (NAB)


1 Cor 4:3-5
It matters little to me whether you or any human court
pass judgment on me. I do not even pass judgment on myself.
Mind you, I have nothing on my conscience. But that does
not mean that I am declaring myself innocent. The Lord is
the one to judge me, so stop passing judgment before the
time of his return. He will bring to light what is hidden
in the darkness and manifest the intentions of hearts. At
that time, everyone will receive his praise from God. (NAB)

1 Cor 9:27
No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after
having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
(NAB)

1 Cor 10:12
Therefore whoever thinks he is standing secure should
take care not to fall. (NAB)

2 Cor 6:3
We avoid giving anyone offense, so that our ministry may
not be blamed. On the contrary, in all that we do we
strive to present ourselves as ministers of God, acting
with patient endurance amid trials, difficulties,
distresses, beatings, imprisonments, and riots; as men
familiar with hard work, sleepless nights and fastings...
(NAB)

Gal 5:1-4
1. For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do
not submit again to the yoke of slavery. 2. It is I, Paul,
who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumsised,
Christ will will be of no benefit to you. 3. Once again, I
declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is
bound to observe the entire law. 4. You are separated from
Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you
have fallen from grace. (NAB)

Phil 2:12
So then, my dearly beloved, obedient as always to my
urging, work with anxious concern to achieve your
salvation, not only when I happen to be with you but
all the more now that I am absent. It is God, who, in
his good will toward you, begets in you any measure of
desire or achievement. (NAB)

Phil 3:11-14
11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the
dead. 12 It is not that I have already taken hold of
it or have already attained perfect maturity , but I
continue my persuit in hope that I may possess it,
since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ
[Jesus]. 13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider my-
self to have taken possession. Just one thing: for-
getting what lies behind but straining forward to what
lies ahead. 14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal,
the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus.
(NAB)

1 Tim 4:1
Not the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times
some will turn away from the faith by paying attention
to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions...(NAB)

1 Tim 5:15
For some have already turned away to follow Satan. (NAB)

Heb 3:12-15
12 Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an
evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living
God. 13 Encourage yourselves daily while it is still
"today," so that none of you may grow hardened by the
deceit of sin. 14 We have become partners of Christ if
only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until
the end, 15 for it is said:

Oh, that today you would hear his voice:
"Harden not your hearts as it the
rebellion." (NAB)

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have
once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift
and shared in the holy Spirit 5 and tasted the good
word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and
then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance
again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for
themselves and holding him up to contempt.

Heb 6:11-12
Our desire is that each of you show the same zeal till the
end, fully assured of that for which you hope. Do not grow
lazy but Imitate those who through faith and patience, are
inheriting the promises. (NAB)

NOTE: Why does not the color work?

Verse 20 simply means this…. The Greek term Paul uses means "superabounded." Πλεονάζω’’ (pleonazo ) Not only can sin never exceed the grace provided by God, sin loses its threat when compared to the superabounding grace of God

Thanks, jg, for the valiant attempt, but I see nothing here at all that approaches the doctrine that a “truly†saved person cannot loose his faith and thus his salvation by his own free will of choice.

If what you claim is true, why does Satan continue to tempt us to sin? Why does he waste his time attempting to get us to turn away from God of salvation is as secure as you sat?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Christ has no body now but yours;
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which
he blesses all the world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

- St. Therese of Avila -

 

[William Putnam]

William
As I re-read your post here the part that stood out to me was the part in bold.9snip)

I should have included this in my last reply, so I will give it here for you:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Assuran ... vation.asp

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Say not: "It was God's doing that I fell away"; for what he hates he does not do.
Say not: "It was he who set me astray"; for he has no need of wicked man.
Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him.
When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free
choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your
hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Immense
is the wisdom of the LORD; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing. The eyes of God see
all he has made; he understands man's every deed. No man does he command to sin, to
none does he give strength for lies.
(Sirach 15:11-20)

 

[Oscar3]

William
While I disagree with you compleltely, I like you. I like your style.

 

[William Putnam]

William
While I disagree with you compleltely, I like you. I like your style.

Thank you sir!

Please know that this forum is a far cry from the recriminations I get in CARM, from which I am taking a break from...

...for my own good!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Jesus said unto them, "And whom do you say that I am?"
They replied, "You are the eschatological ground of our being,
the ontological foundation of the context of our very selfhood."
And Jesus replied, "What?"

 

[Oscar3]

Thank you sir!

Please know that this forum is a far cry from the recriminations I get in CARM, from which I am taking a break from...

...for my own good!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Jesus said unto them, "And whom do you say that I am?"
They replied, "You are the eschatological ground of our being,
the ontological foundation of the context of our very selfhood."
And Jesus replied, "What?"

CARM
Is not that a reformed web site?

 

[William Putnam]

CARM
Is not that a reformed web site?

Ah, I think so, but I suggest you go to it and note their statement of faith. Matt Slick is the owner of the site, and he runs what is probably the largest Christian debating site in the internet.

Here is a link to it:

http://www.carm.org/index/aboutcarm.htm

And the forums are:

http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/

If you wish to participate, you must register, of course.

Note the busiest forum by far in the list given...

Hope that helps.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord;
who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died,
and was buried.

He descended into hell;
the third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

- The Apostles Creed -

 

[golfjack]

reply

William, I can see already that you don't know the Bible very well. Once being a Catholic, I did not no much of anything either. Never was taught. Now, I do understand some things, and to me Cathoilic Theology is out there in left field. Nevertheless, I will attempt to explain these scriptures for you.

Matt. 10:22. Jesus warned them that they would be persecuted for preaching the Gospel, and would have no physical defense. He said, Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves ( v. 16-23). The apostles suffered severe persecution; indeed, nearly all the apostles were put to death. They could have denied their faith and lived, but they refused. Why did they refuse? Read Matt. 10:19.

Mk. 13:13: Jesus is merely speaking about the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

Luke 9:62: Jesus is merely talking about the cost of discipleship. It has nothing to do with losing ones salvation.

Romans 5:2: Boy, you sure like to cherry pick scripture to fit what you believe. This verse and other verses here pertain to how faith triumphs in trouble. Always be joyful in bad times because our faith will always persevere.


Romans 8:24-25: Paul is talking about the redemption of our bodies. Is that so hard to understand?


1 Cor. 4:3-5: Basically, it is the Lord that judges and if we have been saved we already have been judged.

1 Cor. 9:27: Paul is talking about rewards here. You see, a believer can lose his rewards, but not his salvation.

1 Cor. 10:12: Paul is talking about Israel of past days, and is admomishing the Cor, to not be overtaken by temptations because God is faithful , Who will not let temptation overtake you.

2 Cor. 6:3: Paul is saying that he don't want his ministry to be blamed because some were blaming his ministry for all the persecution that they had to endure. He suffered the same as they did.

Gal. 5:1-4: Paul was saying that if one ( Jews) go back to the law ( Old Covenant) that they can fall from grace. In other words, they denied Christ, after they were saved, and they did lose their salvation and if they didn't have it in the first place, I don't really know.

Phil 2:12: All this verse means is that we have our job to do while on earth, but our spirits have been complete in the new birth.

Phil 3:11-14: What is the goal? To get to heaven. You see, believers have a race to finish, but some won't finish their race, but they will still go to heaven, but no rewards.

1 Tim 4:1: Yes, there will be apostacy. We see it today. We have churches that ordain gays. We have churches that don't believe in hell, and so forth. This is why we must holdfast to our confession of faith before we start believing what the devil says.

1 Tim 5:15: During these times widows were mooching of the church. Paul said only help them if they really needed it. Aside for Satan. They probably were not saved in the first place.

I believe by now, you get my drift. I suggest that before you study scripture, pray to God for enlightment. Be sure that you know who the authur is addressing. Find other scriptures that support the verse that you are studying. Make sure you know who Jesus is talking to and what dispensation He is addressing. Many times He is referring to the old Mosiac Law.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[JM]

CARM
Is not that a reformed web site?

Slick is sorta Reformed. I'm on there once in a while. http://www.carm.org

First of all, your second quote has nothing at all to do with the point I have been trying to make. We both understand and agree that Christ's salvation is once and for all!

The CCC doesn't seem to agreed with what you've posted.

But free will of choice is not abridged and we can still choose to reject Him, after having once accepted Him as our Lord and Savior. Christ's promise does not change, but our own choices can and do change.

Ahhhhhh, that's not mentioned in the passage either, the idea of rejected this "one time sacrifice", now is it.

Good to hear from you Bill.

~JM~

 

[Solo]

But free will of choice is not abridged and we can still choose to reject Him, after having once accepted Him as our Lord and Savior. Christ's promise does not change, but our own choices can and do change.

Ahhhhhh, that's not mentioned in the passage either, the idea of rejected this "one time sacrifice", now is it.

Good to hear from you Bill.

~JM~

Why do some of those who call themselves Christians not understand the teachings of Jesus Christ concerning being born again, born from above, born of God?

Instead they continually speak of believing, then rejecting, then repenting and believing again, then falling away due to rejecting Jesus, etc. etc. No where in the scriptures is this a manner in which salvation is portrayed. No one can be born again, then unborn again, then born again, then unborn again into the Spiritual life that God has provided to those that hear the Word of God, Repent, and believe in the Work of Jesus Christ.

Oh well, sometimes it is just as profitable to just bang one's head on the wall! :roll:

 

[William Putnam]

William, I can see already that you don't know the Bible very well. Once being a Catholic, I did not no much of anything either. Never was taught. Now, I do understand some things, and to me Cathoilic Theology is out there in left field. Nevertheless, I will attempt to explain these scriptures for you.

Please know that I am a convert to the Catholic Church, which occurred in 1953! As for my not “knowing†the bible, I have one before me that has lost it covers in wear and tear, plus about five more English translations, one in Greek, and a Greek-English Parallel that I use sometimes. But yes, you are right to the extent that I do not know the bible enough, nor am I anywhere near a scholar of Holy Scriptures.

By the way, I bet I am older then you are!

Matt. 10:22. Jesus warned them that they would be persecuted for preaching the Gospel, and would have no physical defense. He said, Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves ( v. 16-23). The apostles suffered severe persecution; indeed, nearly all the apostles were put to death. They could have denied their faith and lived, but they refused. Why did they refuse? Read Matt. 10:19.

Which points to a truth that many fail to see - the more the Church is persecuted, the more she will be defended, even into martyrdom. As for Matt 10:19, I pray that I would be be given the grace to endure to the end, that by remaining faithful to Him, I will be saved in the end.

What if I were to recant and deny Christ under such circumstances? Some did, you know, as I read about in the persecutions of Christians in Ancient Rome.

Mk. 13:13: Jesus is merely speaking about the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

Not exactly. He certainly speaks of it’s destruction, but He goes on to speak of the coming persecution, and that those who persevere will be saved in the end. Those who fall back is another case, whether it be by persecution or by the temptations of Satan to do so.

Luke 9:62: Jesus is merely talking about the cost of discipleship. It has nothing to do with losing ones salvation.

Even if one looks back to return to his former way of life? What does it mean not to be “fit for the kingdom of God,†jg?

Romans 5:2: Boy, you sure like to cherry pick scripture to fit what you believe. This verse and other verses here pertain to how faith triumphs in trouble. Always be joyful in bad times because our faith will always persevere.

Jg, think closely now and consider the key word here which is “hope.†Why “hope†if salvation is all that secure? But I would certainly agree that “faith triumphs in trouble,†but know that faith can falter and fall, which is why we always “hope†that this does not happen, a prayer to God that we are strengthened that we do not fall back in the faith.

Romans 8:24-25: Paul is talking about the redemption of our bodies. Is that so hard to understand?

Of course he is! And it is by hope (that key word again) that we persevere that we are redeemed in the end of our life!

1 Cor. 4:3-5: Basically, it is the Lord that judges and if we have been saved we already have been judged.

Notice the Paul makes no presumption on his own salvation. If you note in verse 2 (which I did not include in the original quote) that “stewards must be found trustworthy.†Why is this a concern if one is absolutely saved no matter what?

1 Cor. 9:27: Paul is talking about rewards here. You see, a believer can lose his rewards, but not his salvation.

Did you notice the possibility, even in Paul, of being “disqualified� I would propose that if one commits a “sin that is deadly†per 1 John 5:16-17 and is not repented of, such a disqualification would bring one to a loss of salvation and a condemnation to hell in our personal judgment before God in our time of judmente.

1 Cor. 10:12: Paul is talking about Israel of past days, and is admomishing the Cor, to not be overtaken by temptations because God is faithful , Who will not let temptation overtake you.

Excuse me but Paul is writing to the Corinthian born again “saved†Christians who have go astray, that that they must guard against a great fall if one presumes on their salvation! This is one of the most powerful quotes in scripture against OSAS, and you missed it that easy? In fact the entirety of 1 and 23 Corinthians was written that the very Church Paul established has fallen into serious sin! He is correcting them, least they indeed, loose it all and do not repent of their sins!

2 Cor. 6:3: Paul is saying that he don't want his ministry to be blamed because some were blaming his ministry for all the persecution that they had to endure. He suffered the same as they did.

No, he is speaking of our own actions that would cause others to stumble in their faith! And a fault in his ministry is a sin of his own, don’t you see? If the Corinthians are born again “saved†Christians, why the admonishment to them if they are saved? Why be concerned?

That, jg, is the ultimate weakness in the doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved.†Such a belief brings on the immediate tendency to drop your guard, not be diligent against temptations and if we sin anyway, that’s alright, it covered! Really? Is that not what Satan wants us to believe? Think about it, jg…

Gal. 5:1-4: Paul was saying that if one ( Jews) go back to the law ( Old Covenant) that they can fall from grace. In other words, they denied Christ, after they were saved, and they did lose their salvation and if they didn't have it in the first place, I don't really know.

1. Are not the Galatian Greeks actually, Jews? (Which brings forth the reason for the Septuagint Greek text of the Old Testament that they used, since most of them lost the Hebrew language, I understand.)

2. If so, once they became Christians, is there not the great tendency to such converts from Judaism to tend to revert back to the old law ways?

To do so is to abandon the Gospel message and to commit a grave sin against the gospel message they originally adopted in faith and belief.

Phil 2:12: All this verse means is that we have our job to do while on earth, but our spirits have been complete in the new birth.

You disappoint me here, jg. “…work out your salvation in fear and trembling†is obvious in the reading! Why “fear†if salvation is that secure? Answer, Salvation is not secure while we work out our salvation here on earth!

Phil 3:11-14: What is the goal? To get to heaven. You see, believers have a race to finish, but some won't finish their race, but they will still go to heaven, but no rewards.

Again, the key word is “hope.†What if we fall by the wayside and fail to meet the “goal,†jg?

How is it to attain heaven, and how no rewards if heaven is the ultimate reward itself?

1 Tim 4:1: Yes, there will be apostacy. We see it today. We have churches that ordain gays. We have churches that don't believe in hell, and so forth. This is why we must holdfast to our confession of faith before we start believing what the devil says.

How does one fall into apostasy if one were not a believer in the first place? And what if we fail to “holdfast to our confession of faith,†jg?

1 Tim 5:15: During these times widows were mooching of the church. Paul said only help them if they really needed it. Aside for Satan. They probably were not saved in the first place.

Ah, jg, look at verse 15, not verse 16, where I think you went off here.

What does it mean to “turn away†if not to abandon what was first believed in the gospel message of Christ?

I believe by now, you get my drift. I suggest that before you study scripture, pray to God for enlightment. Be sure that you know who the authur is addressing. Find other scriptures that support the verse that you are studying. Make sure you know who Jesus is talking to and what dispensation He is addressing. Many times He is referring to the old Mosiac Law.


May God bless, golfjack

Nice try, jg, and I have to give you credit for attempting what you did here.

Again, I am a mere amateur of scripture and I need to study more.

I invite you to go to my profile and click on my website. Go to the apologetics section and you can see my feeble attempts at defending my Catholic Faith.

NOTE: I called you "jg" thoughout this reply and I see that is an error. Nexttime, can I just call you "Jack"?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Prayer for Peace by Pope John Paul II

O God, Creator of the universe, who extends your paternal concern over every
creature and guides the events of history in the goal of salvation, we acknowledge
your fatherly love when you break the resistance of mankind and, in a world torn
by strife and discord, you make us ready for reconciliation. Renew for us the
wonders of your mercy: send forth your Spirit that He may work in the intimacy
of hearts, that enemies may begin to dialogue, that adversaries may shake hands
and peoples may encounter one another in harmony. May all commit themselves to the
sincere search for true peace which will extinguish all arguments, for charity
which overcomes hatred, for pardon which disarms revenge. Amen.

 

[William Putnam]

Ahhhhhh, that's not mentioned in the passage either, the idea of rejected this "one time sacrifice", now is it.

Good to hear from you Bill.

~JM~

Thanks, noting that not all of the previous message was quoted.

I think we both agree that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was a "one time sacrifice" don't we.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[JM]

Thanks, noting that not all of the previous message was quoted.

I think we both agree that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was a "one time sacrifice" don't we.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

Maybe we do, but then you would be in disagreement with the Roman Catholic Church.

"the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist," (CCC 1055) and "the Eucharist is also a sacrifice," (CCC 1365)

"For it is in the liturgy, especially in the divine sacrifice of the Eucharist, that "the work of our redemption is accomplished," (CCC 1068)

"The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross," (CCC 1366)

"The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice," (CCC 1367)

Which, as you know, doesn't make sense...since we both agree the sacrifice was offered but once.

"And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner (CCC 1367)

"The sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands," (CCC 1369)

"As sacrifice, the Eucharist is also offered in reparation for the sins of the living and the dead," (CCC 1414)

1. "For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself," (Heb. 7:26-27).
2. "So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him," (Heb. 9:28).
3. "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all, 11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God," (Heb. 10:10-11).

And as we know from Hebrews 6:

1. "For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near," (Heb. 10:1).
2. "And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins," (Heb. 10:11).

To sum it up, there is no further sacrifice for sin, Christ has accomplished it for us. It's done.

~JM~
PS: Thanks to carm.org for the info. :

 

[Vic C.]

To sum it up, there is no further sacrifice for sin, Christ has accomplished it for us. It's done.

~JM~
PS: Thanks to carm.org for the info. :

Amen! ... and LOL@the CARM plug. ;-)

Hey no sweat!

This place is heaven compared with CARM! :angel:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[jgredline]

William
I noticed that you said you have a Greek bible...What I find odd is that you were; or are bright enough to notice that Paul uses two differant Greek words for Justification and yet you do not understand what those words mean. May I suggest an depth word study of those two words....Once you have seen the rich nature and meanings of those words, you will realize that once ''one is justified'' it is a done deal....God is not a man that he should lie....

Now believing in Justification in the way it is written in Romans would mean having to leave the CC and the RCC beliefs on salvation....and actually, I don't often hear of one leaving a Christian Church and going to a CC unless of course its an episcopal or angelican church, in which case those are not christian churches anyway....