Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Solo]

Never forget....that a person's name CAN BE taken out...of the Book of Life !
3 times in the Bible, is that point affirmed.

OSAS tends to forget that Biblical fact.

It is ONLY on condition of oedience, does anyone keep their names in the Book of Life.

Jesus keeps His sheep in His Book of Life. All of those that are not His will have their name blotted out of the Book of Life.

 

[Solo]

That is correct.
Only those who overcome sin as Jesus di, will retain their names in the Book of Life......
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I have overcome sin be being born of God, how did you overcome sin. I have yet to see any testimony of your salvation and moment of rebirth yet. All I have ever seen from you is garbage from Ellen G. White and the Seventh Day Adventist cult.

 

[Solo]

We have to overcome sin the way Jesus tells us to; by repenting of it. You can’t turn from your sin and still hold onto it. Your life must be a continual turning from sin and toward Christ‘s ways of love and mercy and holiness, without which, no man shall see the Lord.

Proclaiming yourself ‘born again’ does not make you ‘born again.’

You keep jumping in and out of Jesus' lap if you want. I will rest there and wait for you to grow up in the Spirit.

 

[jgredline]

This thread will be temporarily locked until I get it cleaned up 8-)

 

[jgredline]

Hello Folks...This thread is now re-opened for business..I hope I spelled business right...Anyway after deleting about 6 pages of un-related to the topic junk and insults, it is ready to go....If I have missed something, PM me and I will look into it..... Here is the OP again

Hi Folks
I have decided to start this thread to discuss if ''True Christians'' can loose their salvation.....

No place in scripture does it say God will take back the free gift of eternal life that he gave by grace through faith...

Where I differ from many reformist is that I believe God gave us a ''free will'' to choose God or Reject God... Further I feel that God does not condemn people to Hell and eternal torment, but that people choose to go there of their own free will by rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ....

It is also illogical to think that a ''true Christian'' who has the spirit of God in him would one day turn to God and say ''Get out of me, I don't want you anymore and thus give up his salvation'' Is this possible? As Illogical as it is, for right now I am on the fence on that.... I can't imagine what condition would cause someone to reject Christ after being indwelt by his holy spirit and thus throwing away his salvation and choose hell...But id one can loose his salvation, this would be the only way and thus I am more inclined to believe that anybody who would do this was not truly Saved and so there it is. I guess I answered my own question and thought.....


There are many passages that teach that those who are truly born again, who are genuinely Christians, will continue (persevere) in the Christian life until death and will then go to be with Christ in heaven. Jesus says,

I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:38–40)

Here Jesus says that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. He says that he will raise that person up at the last dayâ€â€which, in this context of believing in the Son and having eternal life, clearly means that Jesus will raise that person up to eternal life with him ……This text emphasizes that Jesus does the will of the Father, which is that he should “lose nothing of all that he has given me†(John 6:39). Once again, those given to the Son by the Father will not be lost.

Another passage emphasizing this truth is John 10:27–29, in which Jesus says:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Here Jesus says that those who follow him, those who are his sheep, are given eternal life. He further says that “no one shall snatch them out of my hand†in verse 28. But more importantly, the most forceful phrase in the passage is “they shall never perish†. The Greek construction (οὐ μή plus aorist subjunctive) is especially emphatic and might be translated more explicitly, “and they shall certainly not perish forever.†This emphasizes that those who are Jesus’ “sheep†and who follow him, and to whom he has given eternal life, shall never lose their salvation or be separated from Christâ€â€they shall “never perish.â€Â

There are several other passages that say those who believe have “eternal life.†One example is John 3:36: “He who believes in the Son has eternal life†. Now if this is truly eternal life that believers have, then it is life that lasts forever with God. It is a gift of God that comes with salvation (it is put in contrast to condemnation and eternal judgment in John 3:16–17, 36; 10:28.

Evidence in Paul’s writings and the other New Testament epistles also indicates that those who are truly born again will persevere to the end. There remains “no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus†(Rom. 8:1); therefore, it would be unjust for God to give any kind of eternal punishment to those who are Christiansâ€â€no condemnation remains for them, for the entire penalty for their sins has been paid.

In Romans 8:30, Paul emphasizes the clear connection between God’s eternal purposes in predestination and his working out of those purposes in life, together with his final realization of those purposes in “glorifying†or giving final resurrection bodies to those whom he has brought into union with Christ: “And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.†Here Paul sees the future event of glorification as such a certainty in God’s settled purpose that he can speak of it as if it were already accomplished (“he also glorifiedâ€Â). This is true of all those who are called and justifiedâ€â€that is, all those who truly become Christians.

Further evidence that God keeps those who are born again safe for eternity is the “seal†that God places upon us. This “seal†is the Holy Spirit within us, who also acts as God’s “guarantee†that we will receive the inheritance promised to us: “In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory†(Eph. 1:13–14). The Greek word translated “guarantee†in this passage (ἀρραβών, G775) is a legal and commercial term that means “first installment, deposit, down payment, pledge†and represents “a payment which obligates the contracting party to make further payments.†When God gave us the Holy Spirit within, he committed himself to give all the further blessings of eternal life and a great reward in heaven with him. This is why Paul an say that the Holy Spirit is the “guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it†(Eph. 1:14). All who have the Holy Spirit within them, all who are truly born again, have God’s unchanging promise and guarantee that the inheritance of eternal life in heaven will certainly be theirs. God’s own faithfulness is pledged to bring it about.[/color]

 

[guibox]

I think that the parable of the prodigal son is further proof against the OSAS position as well as election and predestination.

Here was a son who was already in the Father's house but left on his own accord. The Father never stopped loving him, but the merits and blessings of his household was beyond the grasp of the son.

The son, realizing his sinfulness chose to come back to the house of his Father. The Father welcomed him with open arms and the son was reconciled back to the Father.

The Father did not force him, but did forgive him. The son who was once part of the family but left, came back. Had he died away from his father, he would have been 'lost' from his father and the blessings he once knew.

 

[samuel]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, this is a very long post, and I have not read every one.

But I noticed some saying it depends, on what version you are using. Believe me if you are using any other than the KJV, the others have been watered down. I know, I have about every other version that would be found used by most.

In the KJV the prodigal son was considered DEAD to the father while he was out in sin, only when he returned home was he alive again. Now suppose what the fate of one who is dead to God, should be, if he dies in sin. And don't say true Christian never backslide.

 

[Timf]

If a "true" Christian lost his salvation, what act would cause him to lose it? If he could regain his salvation, what act could he do that would regain it? How does this differ from a works based salvation?

 

[Imagican]

If a "true" Christian lost his salvation, what act would cause him to lose it? If he could regain his salvation, what act could he do that would regain it? How does this differ from a works based salvation?

Tim,

FIRSTLY, BEING a Christian is NOT a 'choice' that WE can make. Only in the most rudimentary sense of definition of language are WE able to DECIDE that WE ARE Christians.

Now, with this in mind, it's NOT what we 'call ourselves' that MAKES us ANYTHING. It's what lies in the hearts of those that profess that MAKES the difference. For ANYONE can CLAIM to BE a Christian. Their WORDS do NOT make it So.

So, with this in mind, one could ONLY be DETERMINED to BE a true Christian by WHAT is IN THEIR HEARTS at the moment of their DEATH.

How MANY of those that profess to BE Christians end up as 'something else' AFTER their profession? How many Satanists WERE at one time what they would offer AS Christians? So, when we are able to SEE past the facade of that which is offered in WORDS, we are then able to SEE that it's NOT about WORDS, it's about TRUTH, THE WORD.

We KNOW that many will HEAR the Word. But it's NOT the HEARERS ONLY that will be saved, but those that HEAR AND DO. The KEY word being DO.

There is NO such thing as a faith based TRUTH WITHOUT works BEING apparent. Coming to FAITH is JUST that. It is NOT necessarily a CONTINUING in FAITH.

We were told NOT to simply 'sign up' for the RACE. We were TOLD to RUN IT LIKE WE MEAN TO WIN IT. Now these words in themselves would NEGATE any such belief as 'OSAS'. For there is a BEGINNING of the race, (does this connotate WINNING IT?), there is the running OF the race, (does this EITHER connotate winning it?), and then there is the COMPLETION of the race, (here is where the DECISION is made as to WHO wins and WHO looses). One CANNOT have a CHANCE to WIN UNLESS he COMPLETES the race. Here is the answer to this question; OSAS CANNOT BE a 'true faith' in that it IGNORES the FACT that MANY will BEGIN the RACE, but FEW will FINISH IT.
This offers an OBVIOUS truth that ALL that hear and first ACCEPT will NOT FOLLOW to it's fulfillment. It is NOT the hearers ONLY that ARE Christians, but those that HEAR AND FOLLOW.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Salvation is not just asking Jesus into your heart.
Once one is saved, they are saved forever according to the promise of God almighty....

That ain't what the Bible says. In fact, that belief is contrary to the Bible & constant Christian teaching.

Recall this Scripture: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12). So, if we do NOT persevere, we shall NOT reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven. Jesus tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). Ergo, if you do not endure to the end, well........

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]), but the Bible does NOT teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. The Bible says, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

Note that this includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." It is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12). , Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). In saying this he points out that even he cannot be infallibly sure of his own present state or of his future salvation.

 

[francisdesales]

Salvation is not just asking Jesus into your heart.
Once one is saved, they are saved forever according to the promise of God almighty....

That ain't what the Bible says. In fact, that belief is contrary to the Bible & constant Christian teaching.

CC,

I don't think Solo is here anymore...

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Salvation is not just asking Jesus into your heart.
Once one is saved, they are saved forever according to the promise of God almighty....

That ain't what the Bible says. In fact, that belief is contrary to the Bible & constant Christian teaching.

CC,
I don't think Solo is here anymore...
Regards

Oh. Well, I still got to pull one of my golden oldies off my flash drive. LOL

 

[Imagican]

Be thankful. For Solo was 'one of kind'. Prone to the same pride that many of us experience when we come to understanding. THINKING that WE are chosen ESPECIALLY to 'open the eyes of others'. And then becoming confined to believing that others 'just don't get it'. While we ALL are capable of experiencing such an 'attitude', Solo was UNIQUE in his insistence upon certain aspects that were of MOST importance to HIM.

Solo was a 'good guy', so long as you didn't disagree with what he offered. Miss him sometimes for he certainly kept one 'on their toes'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Vic C.]

Ok, out of courtesy and decently, lets refrain from discussing someone who is no longer here to defend himself. Thanks.

 

[Arphaxad]

Hello Everyone!

Can a Christian lose their salvation? Well, can an eagle become a pig? :o

The reason believers wonder about this question is that they don't fully understand exactly what salvation is.

Scripture, (especially the New Testament) tells us over and over that salvation is not just the EXTERNAL status of being freed from the condemnation of our past violations God's holy Law. The New Testament writers explain in many different ways that salvation is also a complete inner change of a person's entire nature. In other words, God accomplishes a complete spiritual death and resurrection in all those who come to Him for salvation. It's like changing a pig into an eagle. It's also called being "born again."

The "spiritual death" I speak of is the death of the God-hating, self-glorifying, faithless, hateful, self-dependent, thankless person I used to be. And the "resurrection" (new birth) I mention is God creating a completely new inner person from the spiritual death of my old self:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Col 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision (spiritual deadness) of your flesh, hath he quickened (made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (penalties) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

(underlines and bolding are my own)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This complete inner change may not be immediately obvious in a new believer's everyday life. Bringing the full effect of this miraculous inner work of God into our everyday lives is what all Christians are called to do. And it's usually not an overnight process. This is why we are told to "complete" our salvation. God has already forever spiritually completed it within us, including miraculously placing the spirit of Christ within us. Now it's up to us to bring all the many benefits of walking in what the Lord has already done within us, into our everyday lives:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Jer 31:33-34 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth [it], that men should fear before him.

(underlines and bolding are my own).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Best Blessings,
Arphaxad
--------------
[/b]

 

[cyberjosh]

Hello Arph,

I've enjoyed most of your posts here so far. Your enthusiasm shows. I agree with what you've said above, but I still have my doubts (in either direction) as to whether you can loose your salvation or not. It seems like the Bible presents it as a very real possibility for new born Christians (Paul calls them "weaker" brethren), or those not mature or "carnal" Christians (which Paul calls them - yet acknowledging that they had the Spirit and therefore saved). The blanket statement I give for summarizing my current view is that it might be possible to fall away after you have been saved if you do not mature (the warning verses seem to apply to those not as mature and walking carnally) but if you do mature and persevere then by God's power you can "make your election sure" and fully secure your faith in Christ, "work out your salvation in fear and trembling", and grab onto God's promise where He can keep you from stumbling.

I've often refrained from re-entering the big debate over it, because I don't claim to be right - and often it takes some level of arrogance or presumptuousness to ignore the points on either side. Thus I just try to take as balanced a view as possible and just run the race and fight the good fight to the best of my ability, and make sure that as for myself that I persevere and do not fall away. And you will see that that is a far more emphasized command/theme in the Bible than some statement telling you to take solace in that you can never fall away (although we are told that we have consolation in God). So although I claim ignorance on knowing the exact answer I fear the Lord enough to obey the warnings given and secure for myself my election (by God's grace and power working in me) which God tells me to grab onto, and once I have determined to do that God's grasp encompasses all and can keep me from stumbling and falling away since I am pursuing Him.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Hello Everyone!

Can a Christian lose their salvation? Well, can an eagle become a pig?

Oh, man.

Listen: I hear kids everyday say that they were brought up in a Christian home but they aren't Christian anymore. You know what that means? That means when they went up to the altar to "get saved", some guy like you probably told them they couldn't lose their salvation, BUT NOW THEY HAVE LOST IT! Why? Because they have chosen to reject God. It don't get much simpler to understand than that. (*Of course, if they come back to him, they can still be saved. But if not, its the eternal hot-foot.)

The Catholic position on this is right on the money. We say, as the Bible makes it clear, that Christians have a MORAL assurance of salvation. This means: God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]). BUT, we do have an ABSOLUTE assurance of heaven. This means that even though God will keep His word, WE may NOT, just like those kids I was telling you about. Therfore there can be no absolute assurance of salvation, because you don't know the choices you or anyone else may make in the future. Many times tradgedies strike, and some people turn away from God and die in that state of defiance. Stuff happens, as the saying goes.

The Bible says, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

 

[Arphaxad]

Hello Josh!

Great post! I just wanted to say that after studying God's Word intently for over 38 years, I have noticed that believers all too often focus on the eternal and completely ignore the temporal. This seems to me like watching a beautiful mountain view off in the distance and then running into a telephone pole right in front of you.

What I'm saying is that believers too often base their thinking ONLY on what they (usually incorrectly) believe will affect their eternal destiny, while completely ignoring the quality of their precious God-given present life. The bible has much to say about the importance of a believer's life in the "here and now."

The Lord once showed me that: "If you're not happy in your everyday life, why would you want more of it for eternity?"

Here's a great example of a passage that most believers assume pertains to the eternal, when in fact it pertains to this present life:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jam 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted ("tried"- Greek "peirazo") I am tempted (tried) of God: for God cannot be tempted (tried) with evil, neither tempteth (tries) he any man:
14 But every man is tempted (tried), when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth (physical) death.

( parentheses are my own).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So what I'm saying about the necessity for the Lord's children to highly regard this precious God-given present life, has many, many tremendous implications for a believer's walk with the Lord, especially when we realize that "salvation" pertains both to eternal life AND this present life.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-----------

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Catholic Crusader!

Let's give the Lord credit for being MUCH bigger and MUCH smarter than we are. That's extremely difficult for Man to do because men base everything on their own mind and their own imagination. After all, what else do we have to work with? But as you can see from 2 Sam 22:26-27 (below), what we think of the Lord depends on what we are:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Sa 22:26-27 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright.
27 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.

Isa 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Psa 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Jhn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

(underline and bolding are my own).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pax Christi,
"Arph"
-----------

 

[Arphaxad]

Hello Everyone!

Here are a couple of verses that should settle the question about whether a believer can somehow undo the workmanship of God. I used the Latin Vulgate bible especially for Catholic Crusader : :
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice. And I know them: and they follow me. (oves meae vocem meam audiunt et ego cognosco eas et sequuntur me).

29 And I give them life everlasting: and they shall not perish for ever. And no man shall pluck them out of my hand (et ego vitam aeternam do eis et non peribunt in aeternum et non rapiet eas quisquam de manu mea).

29 That which my Father hath given me is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. (Pater meus quod dedit mihi maius omnibus est et nemo potest rapere de manu Patris mei).

(Bolding, parentheses, and color emphases are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, Jesus said: "No man shall pluck them out of my hand." And: "no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father." Do we all believe the Lord meant exactly what He wrote? Could the Lord have been sloppy in His writing of the bible?

Not bloody likely! That being the case, we must then believe that "no man shall pluck..." And "no one can snatch..." includes OURSELVES!! :o

Sinning is thinning,
"Arph"
-------------