Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Arphaxad]

Hello A V Bunyon! :D

You asked HOW the sinner is justified before God. How about this verse written to believers for an answer:
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Col 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision (spiritual deadness) of your flesh, hath he quickened (made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (past tense)

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (the penalty of the Law) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (past tense) (underlines and parentheses are my own).
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And here's how believers are sanctified:
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Jam 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ (past tense): nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (past tense)

(underlines, parentheses and color emphases are my own)
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Grace, then Peace,
Arphaxad
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[Catholic Crusader]

Again with all due respect - until you settle the issue of how the sinner is justified before God this issue of "losing it" can never be settled or will never be settled here even if you went another 24 pages.

God bless

Here is a link to an mp3 you should really listen to:

http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnBAM1990.mp3

This is an episode of the "Bible Answer Man", a protestant radio show. The guest is Dr Scott Hahn, a former Presbyterian who is now a Catholic and Professor of Scripture and Theology at Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio. At the 10 min 40 sec mark, the topic of Salvation is discussed with an emphasis on Justification. Listen for about 15 minutes. You will get the best explanation of our beliefs.

 

[BobRyan]

If you check out one of my earlier posts in this topic explaining the parable of the wicked servant, who, after humbly begging his king for mercy, and being forgiven a huge debt by that King, went out and persecuted one of his fellowservants in order to build up his own wounded ego, you will see the principle that many believers accept their salvation with great pain to their pride.

And then, feeling Christ only had to "die a little bit" for them, spend much time and effort thereafter trying to establish their participation in helping the Lord with the job. Hence no necessity to feel so beholden to Jesus. But thank God, at least they do accept their salvation! That's why God's Word tells us to: "Grow in grace." Personally, I would add: "Grow in humility" and then "grow in compassion." The three really go together.

Pax Christi,
"Arph

Good points all - but in the parable this saved person goes on to experience "forgiveness revoked" which gets us to the "really saved" vs "really lost" discussion.

What is your thought on that?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I've got an interesting question:

Can ANY of us TRULY consider ourselves 'Christians' BEFORE it's OVER. Before this life is ENDED, can ANY of us TRULY KNOW that we ARE what we PROFESS to BE?

MEC

1John 5 we are told "These things I write unto that you may KNOW you have eternal life"

Rom 8:16 "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that WE ARE the Children of God"

There are many texts that speak to our knowing that God has saved us.

2Cor 5 "IF anyone is IN Christ he is a NEW creation -- old things are passed away all things have become new... we beg you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hi again Bubba! :D

Here are some verses that show the "always was" time frame for the available salvation and new birth of all men:
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Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the imaginary Beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Col 1:26-27 [Even] the mystery (the New Birth) which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

(underlines, parentheses and bolding are my own).
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So even all the believers in the Old Testament were born again with the spirit of Christ in them. They just didn't know the name of "Jesus" yet because it was still concealed. Enoch and Elijah and righteous Abel were REAL good examples of born-again Old Testament saints with "Christ in them."

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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Good points for "ONE Gospel" (GAl 1:6-9) in ALL ages.

As Heb 4:1 says "The GOSPEL was preached to US just as it was to THEM also"

Gal 3:7 "For this reason the GOSPEL was preached beforehand to Abraham".

in John 3 Christ tells Nicodemus " you must be born again" -- precross. When Nicodemus pretends not to know about it Christ said "are you a teacher in Israel and yet do not know these things"??

The OT text contains the Gospel - the New Covenant promise is there.

In Heb 11 it is OT saints that are the by-faith "examples" for all NT saints.

Enoch goes to heaven without dying -- so also does Elijah.

Salvation was "real" in the OT and it was based on the same Gospel as we have today.

But as Christ notes in Matt 7 it is still only 'the FEW" that choose salvation and are on the narrow path.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Everybody! :D

Could anything be any more clear and simple than these following verses?:
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Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

(underlines and bolding are my own).
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Too easy? Very easy? Couldn't be that easy? Well the good news is that as far as the Lord judging and putting to death the person you and I used to be before we followed the Holy Spirit and came to God for salvation, God HAD to make that super easy for Man because there is no possible way Man could ever do it himself! :o

And after the Lord judges and puts that old spiritually dead, faithless, self-glorifying, God-hating, "natural man" within us to death as He did with Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus, He "resurrects" us into being new creatures, alive unto God, with the spirit of Christ within us, his own spiritually holy children forever.

The Lord has to make this "resurrection" super easy also because, just as ONLY the Lord could judge and put the old "natural man" within all us believers to death, He ALONE is the only one who can "resurrect" all us believers into new creatures, just as He "resurrected" Saul of Tarsus into Paul the Apostle:
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Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Again - all excellent points. It is easy to go from being lost to being saved -- no question about it.

But once saved -- even then Paul argues "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" --

Being disqualified from the very gospel he preached is not something he wanted to happen -- but was a problem to be avoided in his view.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

[
Francisdesales,
You do make a good argument for your position, but be careful and not assume you understand my theology as strictly from a Reformation foundation. These days I do believe that Jesus is a propitiation for sins, and not just for the elect, but for the whole world. I do not believe in eternal punishment, nor did much of the Church prior to St. Augustine, Blessings, Bubba

But would you accept that the Lake of Fire "second death" is at least "real" and that no sinner "survives it to then go on and enjoy eternal life of bliss"?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Bubba]

Bob wrote:

But as Christ notes in Matt 7 it is still only 'the FEW" that choose salvation and are on the narrow path.

In this realm there is a narrow path, but there may be another realm seldom explored which I can't go into because of restraints, but meditate on this passage and see what the Lord reveals.
Bubba

1cOR. 15:20-26: "And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,

21for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead,

22for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,

23and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

24then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --

25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --

26the last enemy is done away -- death;" Youngs Literal Translation.

 

[Bubba]

[
Francisdesales,
You do make a good argument for your position, but be careful and not assume you understand my theology as strictly from a Reformation foundation. These days I do believe that Jesus is a propitiation for sins, and not just for the elect, but for the whole world. I do not believe in eternal punishment, nor did much of the Church prior to St. Augustine, Blessings, Bubba

But would you accept that the Lake of Fire "second death" is at least "real" and that no sinner "survives it to then go on and enjoy eternal life of bliss"?

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,
I would enjoy discussing this thought with you, but it will have to be done by PM. The admin. here will not let me discuss Universalism views in this format.
Grace, Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

Good morning,

Profuse apologies! After you quoted my paragraphs on Jesus telling His disciples that "their righteousness must exceed." etc., I went back and edited those paragraphs according to the original Greek scripture. Here's the "final version":
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Oh, by the way, you quoted Jesus: "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20"

Please notice the brackets around "the righteousness" (of the scribes and Pharisees). The brackets indicate words that were not present in the original manuscript but were added by the translators according to their own understanding (or lack thereof).

The original reads: "For I say unto you, that except your relationship with God far exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20

Well, the original does not read that, "relationship" is not mentioned.

The word used is "dikaiosynē", which is "righteousness" or "condition acceptable by God". Are you trying to change the meaning of the text? The Greek supports the use of the brackets, since there is a comparison, a lesser and greater involved. The comparison is with "righteousness".

Again, how does this change my point? People have different levels of righteousness in God's eyes... This verse clearly points that out, with or without the brackets... Clearly, there are different levels of holiness, righteousness, relationships with God, whatever you want to call it.

Anyway, Mea culpa for what I think is a bit of confusion in semantics. My recent posts in this Salvation topic have focused primarily on the work that the Lord does in the spirit of the believer, which may or may not ever come to full physical fruition. God's spiritual work within the believer is the ONLY basis upon which a believer is permanently accepted into the Body of Christ (the family of God). The Lord accepts only His OWN spiritual work within Man.

God will judge us based upon OUR response to Him, not His work within us. God doesn't need to reward Himself. He rewards those who seek Him out, who respond to His promptings, who call upon Him and repent of their sins. While it is certainly true that we can do none of these alone, God is looking for a response to His gifts. The parable of the talents expresses this. NONE of the men would have made a penny without the original talents given. Yet, God rewards the men based on what THEY did with the gifts He had given. The one who did nothing was punished. I do not see where Jesus talks about the Master lording it over the men, saying "well, I gave you the talents, so nothing you did was really yours, it was ALL MINE, MINE, YOU HEAR ME???!!!"

That is not my idea of God. God is a God of love who desires to share of Himself.

A believer's own development of the Lord's inner spiritual work into his everyday life is to the benefit of the believer, but is never a basis for salvation, if it were, the believer could take the credit. Rather, it's a blessing of salvation:

I wholeheartedly disagree. WHY or HOW can a believer take "credit" when it is God who provides the talents in the first place? It is not an "either/or". Again, you are forgetting the concept of synergy in Scriptures - that God and man work together. God gives man the ABILITY to respond - but man, in the end, decides whether he will or not. The credit is not man's because it is God who gives to man the POSSIBILITY of responding in the first place. Man merely returns the gifts given to him by God. Thus, we cannot go to God with any merit of our own because EVERYTHING good we do has God involved. We can do NOTHING good without God. But God judges us based on what we DO WITH the talents He has given to us.

But the thing to remember here is that bearing fruit has nothing to do with God's inner work of justification and regeneration within the spirit of a believer. Bearing the fruit of the Spirit is the hoped-for result of God's inner work. But even if a believer only bears fruit thirtyfold or even less, God's inner work remains incorruptible forever. The only sad thing is that an unresponsive believer will not enjoy all the many blessings of a believer who responds to the Lord in full measure.

I detect a "judgment for rewards" theology...Not exactly a lot of support in the Bible for that... Judgment is for heaven or hell. An unresponsive believer, like the last man given one talent who did nothing, is not going to be rewarded. Here is his fate. Notice, it is not a "lesser reward", like you seem to imply...

Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mat 25:28-30

The UNPROFITABLE servant is cast out. Not given a lesser reward. Think about that...

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Joe,

Did you ever see the reply I left you on the last page?

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

Josh,

Oh, how did I miss this?

I understand what you are saying. However, at what POINT has one "made one's calling and election sure"? Does a meter in heaven peg out, stating Josh has reached "surety" of election? Does a bell go off somewhere? How do you KNOW you have reached that point where you are "sure"? I don't believe this verse states that. Again, by doing what Peter discusses, we are making our election more "certain", since we trust that by doing these things, we are pleasing to God - and God is righteous and will reward us for our obedience.

I understand what you are saying also and your point is valid. I think what I'm trying to say though is that it's not about getting "to the mark" (a "meter") and then saying "Yep I'm here, I've made my election sure" because any of the true elect would inevitably live a life of perseverance and endurance and walk in a fear of God in constantly pressing toward that mark (like Paul said "not that I have already attained it"), and realize that "it's not over till it's over" so to speak since we must "persevere to the end", but the idea I'm trying to convey is that once you've begun on that path and you determine for yourself to walk down it and count all things else rubbish (as did Paul), what else is there to turn to? I try to qualify this and elaborate below.

OK, but that just re-assures us today. While we walk in the Lord today, we have "certainty" that God will save us. But Paul tells us that we have not yet crossed the finish line and so we continue the race. This is not a difficult burden to those who love God. Thus, my point is that we continue in Christ - knowing full well that people HAVE fallen away.

*And also, as a side note, Paul seemed very confident that when he did depart from this life, that we was going to be at home with the Lord (and while still yet alive Paul said "I have fought the good fight" and he knew he was going to continue on it and not turn back), that's the type of assurance I'm talking about.*

Very well - and we should have this assurance - but it is not certainty. We HOPE. And hope is based on something we have not yet received. Since God does NOT owe us salvation, the most we can do is HOPE He will give it to us based on our knowledge that God is righteous and will fulfill His promises to those who persevered in obedience to Him.

[

God has worked in so many ways in my life that I've determined to (and I automatically do) immediately fall back on God in times of doubt, troubled times, etc., etc. and each time God makes you a little bit stronger, and each time a little less of the world is appealing to you and a little more of God is shown to you. It reminds me of that old hymn that says "then the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of His glory and grace". Man I'll tell you what, that's what I'm in it for, I desire to see God's glory - and I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that right now God is working in me (and every day) to transform me into the image of His Son, and I would posit that as we become more like Jesus, the more immune (less susceptible) we will be to the world's ways. Now am I saying that we will not stumble and fall? No of course not, and I wouldn't even admit that one could apostacize if I didn't think one could go the other direction as well, but I think that for those that are actively pursuing God and whom God has made more & more strong and dependent on Him that it will become all that much more easier for God to "keep our foot from stumbling" as Jude tells us and "complete in us that good work" as Paul tells us.

I agree. I just prefer not to be overconfident in what God will do, as if God owes me. Whatever God will do for me is based upon His mercy. I presume God has free will.

I think it is indeed an issue of our will, but here is the "what if" that I'm proposing here (we already know the "what if" of 'if' you turn away: apostacy; but now consider...): "what if" you surrender your will to God, by this meaning that you submit it to Him humbly and allow God to work in you? Then, I say, just as we know that God is faithful to keep His promises so also we can know that when God is in control that He will keep us from stumbling (As Jude tells us that He so ably can). Where then is our part in this? To determine for ourselves (test ourselves, and "make sure") to pursue God, and count all other things as rubbish, and when me make a solemn determination (and have been walking in it - so as to have seen the fruit of our resolve - and God has made us stronger in it) there begins to grow a confidence in you, not a confidence of one's own abilities but in the might and power of God working in them.

I've experienced and now reject the rubbish and filth of the world and I've seen beauty in God and the indescribable glory of who He is (even if only a glimpse of it) and it has hooked me (as it did Paul). I've come to some points in my life when I've been given a choice to quit and give it up, but I've always run to God in these times and said (like Peter did to Jesus when other disciples fell away - John 6:66-70), "Where else could I go?" And I believe that when you train yourself (nay, even long for it) to always fall back on God no matter the circumstance I do believe you can have dealt massive blows to any self-confidence and pride in the flesh (having a humble and contrite spirit), and where there is humbleness of heart God moves mightily. My confidence in God has grown time and time again through trials and I'm beginning to see things that I never want to go back to and already count as loss and rubbish for Christ. In light of that I have confidence that this will continue, and that God will work in my heart time and time again regardless of the circumstance, and continue to bring me closer to Him. In this I have no doubt or wavering faith about but true confidence, not in my ability, but in God's. Do you see what I am saying?

Yes. That is why Paul thought is was "impossible" to turn away once illuminated. But I don't think Paul meant that in an absolute and universal sense. I would think he considered himself fully illuminated, but he seemed to have kept a healthy hope in God's promises - rather than already considering that he had crossed the finish line... I look at the lives of the saints, and they always took such an attitude. To me, it is an attitude of humility.

The fear of the Lord is the key. And what I've said above about determining ahead of time to pursue God and count all other things rubbish, consider if we determine to do all the things to assure our salvation that the Bible tells us of:

1) Test ourselves to see if we are in the faith
2) Make our election sure
3) Take heed (be watchful) lest we think we stand in instead fall
4) Remain humble and do not harden our heart
5) Press toward (persevere) the mark

If we walk in these things I don't see how one could go wrong, if we are constantly testing, constantly watching, constantly pressing on.

If, if, if...

And on top of all this, for one who is a true child of God (and sometimes even when they are not) God will chase you. God didn't give up on Jonah, he chased Him and got His attention.

I wonder to what degree God will "chase" us? God does not seem to "chase" everyone in the same manner. Thus, God has His own purposes in mind. Who are we to judge "how much" God will "chase" us? At what point does God say "OK, you have been given enough chances to repent..." Even Jesus got to that point with the Pharisees. This is a variable that we cannot judge, Josh. As such, it is wiser to persevere then to take for granted God's patience.

As to "maturity", it is not wise to judge how "mature" we are, thinking we cannot fall away. Paul says we can. Peter says we can. Jesus says we can. Persevere. This builds up a more healthy relationship with God, a humble attitude, rather one where we are "already done".

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

One point to remember: Salvation is not a one time event, therefore you cannot lose something you never fully had.

The Bible says I am saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but it also says I’m being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and it says I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). To harmonize these, we see that salvation is an ongoing process, not a one time event.

When someone asks if I have been "saved," I say, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me."

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Francis! :D

So there are different degrees of Heaven according to what each believer does with the inner justification and regeneration God has given them??? :o I definitely cannot find that anywhere in the bible. In fact I find a parable concerning grace, which says that those who started working early in the day received the same pay as those who started working much later toward the end of the day. Isn't this terribly offensive to Man's ungracious nature? It doesn't seem to bother the Lord though, especially since nobody deserved a darn thing in the first place!

Didn't the thief on the cross with Jesus go to Paradise with Jesus even though he had obviously done absolutely NOTHING with the great gift of salvation Jesus pronounced upon him from that bloody Roman cross? Do you think that lowly thief was as deserving as yourself? He was rewarded with Paradise anyway. I don't even think he was even baptized. :o

Sinning is thinning,
"Arph"
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[Bubba]

Hi Francis! :D

So there are different degrees of Heaven according to what each believer does with the inner justification and regeneration God has given them??? :o I definitely cannot find that anywhere in the bible. In fact I find a parable concerning grace, which says that those who started working early in the day received the same pay as those who started working much later toward the end of the day. Isn't this terribly offensive to Man's ungracious nature? It doesn't seem to bother the Lord though, especially since nobody deserved a darn thing in the first place!

Didn't the thief on the cross with Jesus go to Paradise with Jesus even though he had obviously done absolutely NOTHING with the great gift of salvation Jesus pronounced upon him from that bloody Roman cross? Do you think that lowly thief was as deserving as yourself? He was rewarded with Paradise anyway. I don't even think he was even baptized. :o

Sinning is thinning,
"Arph"
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Amen Arph!
If 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 is talking about literal rewards, then God will be rewarding His saints with the very gifts He worked in us (John3:27). After all, as we gather around the throne (24 Elders being the Church) according to the Revelation we will take our crowns and cast them before Him (Rev. 4:9-11), saying “Thou art worthy, O Lord to receive glory and honor…â€Â
Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

Good afternoon, Arphaxad

So there are different degrees of Heaven according to what each believer does with the inner justification and regeneration God has given them??? :o I definitely cannot find that anywhere in the bible.

I don't believe that, either. I merely said that men advance towards the goal of holiness at different speeds. Catholics believe in Purgatory, where holiness is completed if we die and have yet achieved this desired holiness, without which no one shall see God. I don't want to discuss a particularly Catholic doctrine like Purgatory here, but just to state that this doctrine answers your concern.

In fact I find a parable concerning grace, which says that those who started working early in the day received the same pay as those who started working much later toward the end of the day.

That does no offense to what I have said above. Those in heaven receive the same reward - but perhaps those who loved more on this earth will have the capacity to enjoy the gift of God in heaven to a greater degree. Jesus also gives a parable about who is more grateful (capable of love) when forgiven, the one who was forgiven 50 vs 500...

Didn't the thief on the cross with Jesus go to Paradise with Jesus even though he had obviously done absolutely NOTHING with the great gift of salvation Jesus pronounced upon him from that bloody Roman cross?

Did nothing? I disagree. It appears he accepted that Jesus was a righteous man who died undeservedly. He defended his faith in Jesus. One can say he repented of sin. I would presume that God found his "death-bed" conversion sufficient.

Do you think that lowly thief was as deserving as yourself? He was rewarded with Paradise anyway. I don't even think he was even baptized. :o

Deserving? I don't believe I have mentioned anything about "deserving". None of us "deserve" or "earn" anything, nor have I even implied that. We count on God's promises and His righteousness that He will reward us out of the mercy and love that God Is. As to baptism, we would say he was baptized by desire. God is not bound by the outward sacrament - but can offer salvation to those who desire it. The thief desired it.

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

Hello A V Bunyon! :D

You asked HOW the sinner is justified before God. How about this verse written to believers for an answer:
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Col 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision (spiritual deadness) of your flesh, hath he quickened (made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (past tense)

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (the penalty of the Law) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (past tense) (underlines and parentheses are my own).

Nice verses Arphxad but these do not answer the how.

God bless

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Everyone ignores my posts

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Bob Ryan! :D

Thanks for your encouragement! You wrote: "Good points all - but in the parable this saved person goes on to experience "forgiveness revoked" which gets us to the "really saved" vs "really lost" discussion. What is your thought on that?" (end quote).

My reply: I believe, concerning the parable of the wicked forgiven servant who went out and persecuted his fellowservant, we need to carefully qualify exactly what the seeming "forgiveness revoked" actually is: Does the Lord ever repent from His mercy and gifts once He has given them? I think not. I think we can eliminate that idea from the parable:
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Rom 11:29 (KJV): For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

Rom 11:29 (NIV): for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Rom 11:29 (Amplified Bible): For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death (NOT eternal torment); but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (underline and parentheses are my own).
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So what is actually being revoked here in this parable? It must not be salvation because, as all God's gifts, God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable. So let's go on from that point, starting with the king's admonition to the wicked forgiven servant who oppressed his fellowservant:
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Mat 18:33-35 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. (underlines are my own).
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"Delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him??" How can a debt be paid through torment?? :o I think what we're talking about being revoked here is the peace and joy of being free from debt.

If this first servant had humbly realized that he was fully responsible and yet completely incapable of paying such a great debt, he would have been eternally grateful for his lord's forgiveness and not have gone out and oppressed his fellowservant.

Chances are this wicked forgiven servant hated falling down on his knees, with "his hat in his hand," begging the king for forgiveness, perhaps feeling that the debt was not really that large, and, that having been given enough time, he could have paid it off without the humiliation of begging. Even though he had fallen down on his knees before the king in a show of humility, his heart was not in agreement with his knees!

The extreme pride of this first wicked forgiven servant prevented him from fully and thankfully appreciating all that he had received from his lord. Thus, although he was completely released from his debt, his painful pride drove him to find fault in, and oppress, his fellowservant, thus making it more than obvious that he had absolutely no humility or gratitude for his lord's kindness. So, instead of the king by his kindness creating a loving, appreciative servant, he instead had accidentally created a mean "wounded rhinoceros" who had nothing but contempt for himself, the king, and everybody else.

So the question arises: "Is this parable really about salvation per se, or is it rather about the joy of salvation?" I think the parable is definitely about the Joy that is supposed to accompany salvation, being "revoked" at the end of the parable. Jesus is saying this will be the outcome for all those who accept their salvation resentfully with little or no appreciation. They are "delivered to the tormentors" (Satan) who constantly taunt them with accusations of unforgiven guilt.

Also, please note that the king's original intention to sell the first servant and his family into slavery was not mentioned any further at all in connection with "being delivered to the tormentors." Being sold into slavery and "being delivered to the tormentors" are two totally different scenarios.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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[Arphaxad]

Hi CC! :D

Ok, sorry, I definitely will not ignore your posts. You wrote: The Bible says I am saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but it also says I’m being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and it says I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). To harmonize these, we see that salvation is an ongoing process, not a one time event." (end quote).

My reply: Actually, salvation is BOTH a one-time event and an ongoing process. Scripture says that what God does is forever and nothing can be added to it or taken from it. Therefore the miraculous transformation done by God in a believer's spirit when they come to Him for salvation, is a permanent one-time event. However, bringing the fruits of that inner transformation into our everyday lives in revealing God's love to others is definitely a process.

Even though the Lord may have done a complete and permanent inner transformation, the life of a new believer in Christ may at first not look one bit different from that of a person who never gives the Lord a thought. So it's then up to that new believer to plant that little "mustard seed" of God's Word (God's instructions) into his/her everyday life and watch it grow up to be a mighty tree. And that's a process, and a great blessing originating from God's inner work of salvation.

However, I hasten to say that according to scripture, salvation itself is based ONLY on a person receiving God's miraculous inner work of spiritual transformation as the thief on the cross did when he defended Jesus and also asked "remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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