Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[cyberjosh]

Thanks for replying Joe. I think we are largely in agreement and I always seek to press toward that mark and never cease to pursue God.

If, if, if...

Indeed, and this is why I test myself and ever seek to persevere and fight the good fight. It is indeed 'if' and that is where our labor, empowered by the gracious power of God, comes in as we press on in pursuing Christ.

I wonder to what degree God will "chase" us? God does not seem to "chase" everyone in the same manner. Thus, God has His own purposes in mind. Who are we to judge "how much" God will "chase" us?

We certainly would never want to seek to "tempt the Lord our God" in testing His patience and grace, and so that is always and issue of the heart and whether one is willing to recieve the chastizement as if from a Father, but I believe that at the very least that it will be evident that God is chasing you because in its more urgent forms it takes the form of judgement on the person's life (which we see in a more drastic order with Jonah, but often takes more practical forms like perhaps being shamed by being caught in your sin, being meted out the temporal consequences of your sin, etc.). At any rate yes we should not tempt God and if one is stubborn enough to still reject God's chasing after it is evident that God is doing it, then they indeed have much sorrow in their future.

As such, it is wiser to persevere then to take for granted God's patience.

Always, always, very true. I'm just glad though that when we do stupid things sometimes that God is wiser and more mature than us.

As to "maturity", it is not wise to judge how "mature" we are, thinking we cannot fall away. Paul says we can. Peter says we can. Jesus says we can. Persevere. This builds up a more healthy relationship with God, a humble attitude, rather one where we are "already done".

Yes, and I do not think it is for us to judge to what level we have attained, and rather always be walking in obedience and the fear of the Lord, but we can recognize the fruits of the Spirit in our life to know whether we are walking in the Spirit, for just as "the works of the flesh are evident" (Gal 5:19) so also are the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5:22), and we can tell if we are fulfilling our ministry in light of that the longer God has been working in us that some of us "aught to have been teachers by now" etc., and if we are being faithful to pursue that, and sow seed to the next generation and others (for He gives seed to sowers - 2 Corinthians 9:10; and feely we have recieved, so freely give Matthew 10:8), that we are then indeed maturing in love, humbleness, peacableness, gentleness, and all the fruits of the Spirit. We are not to boast in our own accomplishment, for if in anything we boast may we boast in the Lord. But I do believe that we are able to "test ourselves" and also see if we are are indeed maturing in the faith (for it's fruits should be evident) or if we are making no progress at all.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Bubba]

A quote to consider:

"For a believer to lose his salvation would demand a reversal and an undoing of all the preceding works of the Father, Son, and Spirit. The key issue in the discussion of the believer's security concerns the issue of who does the saving. If man is responsible for securing his salvation, then he can be lost; if God secures the person's salvation, then the person is forever secure."
-Paul Enns

"What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?"
-Romans 8:31; cf. vv. 32-39

Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

A quote to consider:

"For a believer to lose his salvation would demand a reversal and an undoing of all the preceding works of the Father, Son, and Spirit. The key issue in the discussion of the believer's security concerns the issue of who does the saving. If man is responsible for securing his salvation, then he can be lost; if God secures the person's salvation, then the person is forever secure."

That is based on the assumption that salvation is a one-time event. I don't believe it is. I think its an ongoing process, completed when one is in heaven


"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27).


"See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

 

[sonlover]

Everyone ignores my posts

Hi CC !

Don't feel ignored.
You said:

When someone asks if I have been "saved," I say, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me."

That answer is biblical. What can we do though, to work out our
own salvation with fear and trembling?
Isnt it as Francis said, God's mercy (I say grace but I think that's what he meant too)
I mean, is there ANYthing we can do.
Hasn't God already chosen us and preordained our steps etc?

Thanks,
sonlover

 

[Bubba]

A quote to consider:

"For a believer to lose his salvation would demand a reversal and an undoing of all the preceding works of the Father, Son, and Spirit. The key issue in the discussion of the believer's security concerns the issue of who does the saving. If man is responsible for securing his salvation, then he can be lost; if God secures the person's salvation, then the person is forever secure."

That is based on the assumption that salvation is a one-time event. I don't believe it is. I think its an ongoing process, completed when one is in heaven


"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27).


"See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

My understanding is that salvation, sanctification and finally glorification all dove-tail together. Jesus is the "author and finisher of our faith", so it is all of Christ. Yes, with the Holy Spirit we can partner in this process, but God should always get the glory for the end results. As Paul said, "I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me."
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Can a true believer be disqualified"
Sam Storms
Nov 7, 2006
Series: Eternal Security
The apostle Paul describes how he is careful to be self-disciplined and to bring his body into subjection “lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.†Does this word translated “disqualified†(NASB) suggest that Paul feared losing his salvation? Once again, as we see also in Rom. 11:22, it may be that Paul is echoing a theme found elsewhere in his letters and throughout the NT, namely, that ultimate salvation is dependent on perseverance in faith (cf. Rom. 8:13; Col. 1:23; Heb. 3:6,14; 1 Peter 1:5; 1 John 2:19), a faith which Paul believes God graciously preserves and sustains within us (see, e.g., Phil. 2:12-13).


More likely, however, is Paul’s concern that he not become slack or indifferent in his ministry lest he forfeit God’s approval on his apostolic endeavors (and perhaps the power of the Holy Spirit that energized his work). He fears not hearing God say: “Well done, good and faithful servant,†and thereby forfeiting the divine blessings and rewards he otherwise would receive (a theme he earlier addressed in 1 Cor. 3:10-15). The Greek word adokimos (translated “disqualifiedâ€Â) does not pertain to the test of faith but to the test of apostleship. In 2 Corinthians Paul applies the terminology of testing (adokimos and its cognates) to himself as an apostle, not as a professing Christian (see 13:6-7; cf. 1 Thess. 2:4; 2 Tim. 2:15. Gundry-Volf concludes:


“The fact that no instance of the use of adokimos or a cognate referring to Paul relates to the test of faith or salvation, rather, that every instance has to do with his fitness as an apostle raises doubts about the view that adokimos in 1 Cor. 9:27 means rejected from salvation and suggests instad that it means rejected as an apostle†(236-37).

 

[francisdesales]

My understanding is that salvation, sanctification and finally glorification all dove-tail together. Jesus is the "author and finisher of our faith", so it is all of Christ. Yes, with the Holy Spirit we can partner in this process, but God should always get the glory for the end results.

The gifts are from God - and God will exalt those whom He chooses - in particular, the humble.

As Paul said, "I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me."

Note the concept of "synergy" here. I - but not I (alone)... "the Grace of God WITH ME..."

Note that God expects Paul to labor - AND it is God's grace that moves Paul to labor. BOTH are necessary. Man's free will response and God's graces working within us to desire to do His will...

In other words, I can do nothing good alone. With God, I can do anything - even love my enemies.

Regards

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi CC!

Do you acknowledge a miraculous inner transformation done by God in the spirit of all believers?
And if so, does God do a complete job? And how long does it take the Lord to complete the work? And how long did it take the Lord to complete the miraculous transformation in the spirit of the thief on the cross?

Thanks,
"Arph"
---------

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales,
Out of curiosity, how do you interpret Ephesians 2:1-5? The Word says that we are dead in our sins and God has made us alive, how do we have a part in that? R.C. Sproul stated in so many words, that it is like being in a lake, the “freewill†person thinks they are nearly ready to drown, but God throws out a life preserver and then with their last bit of energy they have a choice to grab a hold or not. Yet, this is not what the text says is it? We are dead, rigor mortise is present and we are at the bottom of that lake dead. The only way we can grab a hold of Jesus the life preserver is to be made alive first. Coupled with 1 Cor.2:14 and Romans 3:11-18, we in my understanding begin to realize that salvation is of the Lord through the efficacious work of the Holy Spirit.
Grace, Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
Out of curiosity, how do you interpret Ephesians 2:1-5?

My friend,

Many people make the mistake of looking at "dead" to parallel a dead body. A dead body, as we know, can do nothing. As such, some of my separated brothers make the mistake that man is nothing, is filthy rags, and so forth. However, Jesus gives the correct understanding of "dead" in this passage. It refers to SPIRITUAL death... What is "spiritual death"?

Consider the parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15. TWICE, Jesus has the father call the son "dead". Does he mean that the son was physically dead? No. He was spiritually dead - HE HAD NO RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FATHER! That, my friend, is the meaning of being "dead" in the letter to the Ephesians.

Jesus came to re-establish our relationship with God (as I wrote above). We were dead spiritually. But now, with God's graces available to us (because Jesus Himself reconciled mankind as a whole unit, the second Adam), we indeed CAN return to the Father (with the promptings of the Spirit made available to us). Without Christ's redeeming death, man would still be unable to reconcile Himself. But a MAN, a perfect Man, died for our sake.

Note, the parable of the prodigal son has the son returning to the father. We all have the free will to make this choice, just as he did. And because of the Christ, the Father opens His arms to the "prodigal son". The son was dead - but now, he lives...

We were dead - but now, we live. We are justified in God's sight because of our Spirit-guided response to the Father, our return to Him - faith.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales,
Out of curiosity, how do you interpret Ephesians 2:1-5?

My friend,

Many people make the mistake of looking at "dead" to parallel a dead body. A dead body, as we know, can do nothing. As such, some of my separated brothers make the mistake that man is nothing, is filthy rags, and so forth. However, Jesus gives the correct understanding of "dead" in this passage. It refers to SPIRITUAL death... What is "spiritual death"?

Consider the parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15. TWICE, Jesus has the father call the son "dead". Does he mean that the son was physically dead? No. He was spiritually dead - HE HAD NO RELATIONSHIP WITH THE FATHER! That, my friend, is the meaning of being "dead" in the letter to the Ephesians.

Jesus came to re-establish our relationship with God (as I wrote above). We were dead spiritually. But now, with God's graces available to us (because Jesus Himself reconciled mankind as a whole unit, the second Adam), we indeed CAN return to the Father (with the promptings of the Spirit made available to us). Without Christ's redeeming death, man would still be unable to reconcile Himself. But a MAN, a perfect Man, died for our sake.

Note, the parable of the prodigal son has the son returning to the father. We all have the free will to make this choice, just as he did. And because of the Christ, the Father opens His arms to the "prodigal son". The son was dead - but now, he lives...

We were dead - but now, we live. We are justified in God's sight because of our Spirit-guided response to the Father, our return to Him - faith.

Regards

Francisdesales son of the Father by His will,
Yes, this passage is referring to spiritual death. All people before spiritual regeneration are dead to the Lord. In regards to parables, the simile can only go so far. In the parable of the Prodigal son, the father of the prodigal, as is every earthly father, is represented by flesh and bone and yet our Heavenly Father is spirit. Unlike an earthly father, God is in control over all circumstances and in fact, nothing happens that God has not ordained to come to pass. Thus, the circumstances that brought the prodigal to a end of his riotous living was all part of a larger plan for the elect (in this realm and the next). The Father has orchestrated each and everyone who comes to know Him through Jesus. Paul was on his way to cause havoc and discontent against Christians of his day, but God orchestrated a set of events through a divine voice, blindness and a guy name Ananias, that forever changed Paul.
We participate with the Holy Spirit in sanctification as God works in us, but regeneration and justification is totally a Sovereign choice not human. Yes, man is responsible for his actions, but Scripture is still very clear (at least to me) that no one can come to Jesus, unless the Father draws, (drags) him. Isaiah does state that mans righteous deeds are as filthy rags (menstrual) in and of ourselves (apart from Christ. John 15:5).What makes us of any value at all (heathen and pagan as well) is being created in the image of God and being given gifts such as the ability to love, create and having unique personalities that distinguishes our individuality.

Peace, Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, this passage is referring to spiritual death. All people before spiritual regeneration are dead to the Lord. In regards to parables, the simile can only go so far. In the parable of the Prodigal son, the father of the prodigal, as is every earthly father, is represented by flesh and bone and yet our Heavenly Father is spirit. Unlike an earthly father, God is in control over all circumstances and in fact, nothing happens that God has not ordained to come to pass.

Yes, but one should be very careful about going too deeply into that quagmire. One of the LAST subjects I want to discuss is man's free will vs. God's sovereign will. This is a paradoxical subject. As such, one should try to maintain BOTH teachings, since the Scriptures clearly maintain BOTH concepts. Moving too far in one direction, whether it is towards free will or God's sovereignty, leads towards heretical thoughts of Christianity. Going too far can make God the author of sin - and I won't hear any of such talk. I am not going to listen to the pagan concept of fate brought back into our beliefs of who God is.

Now. Yes, I agree that the parable can point to God's action in bringing the young man back home. Part of our faith is that God does allow evil to happen SO THAT we reach a point of decision to return home. But nowhere do I see any sort of idea that God "dragged" the son back home. That totally throws the entire point of the parable on its head. The message is no longer about God awaiting the return of a wayward son, but one of an escaped prisoner being captured and returned to the stockade...

Sorry, Bubba, that is not my understanding of God. I believe God is Love and Love does not force itself upon the beloved.

Thus, the circumstances that brought the prodigal to a end of his riotous living was all part of a larger plan for the elect (in this realm and the next). The Father has orchestrated each and everyone who comes to know Him through Jesus. Paul was on his way to cause havoc and discontent against Christians of his day, but God orchestrated a set of events through a divine voice, blindness and a guy name Ananias, that forever changed Paul.

We still believe that Paul had the choice to refuse to hear Christ, just as his religious peers, the Pharisees, did on earth. At any point, Paul could have continued his persecution, attributing his experience of Christ to an attack of a demon... That's the problem with "subjective experience".

We participate with the Holy Spirit in sanctification as God works in us, but regeneration and justification is totally a Sovereign choice not human.

I respectfully disagree - since man CAN grieve the Holy Spirit. Man CAN commit the "unforgiveable sin. Man CAN refuse to worship God, despite the fact that they have NO EXCUSE not to - as Paul writes to the Romans in his first chapter. Over and over, man is told to follow the promptings of the Spirit. This very strongly implies that man does not HAVE to. The fact that men apostasize proves that man continues to have free will, even AFTER receiving illumination.

God leads us, moves our will, guides us, presents good reasoning to our minds and wills to DESIRE to come to Him and repent. In the end, Bubba, our regeneration and justification is a GIFT that must be ACCEPTED for it to take place. Thus, WE must accept it - otherwise, man has no free will. We may be spiritually dead, but that does NOT mean we cannot choose. It means we have no relationship with God. The spiritually dead is EXPECTED to choose God. That is why God places within us ALL the desire to seek God. Unfortunately, some do not act upon this desire that is latent within all of us - since God desires ALL men to be saved. Christ died for ALL men. Only free will explains why ALL men are NOT saved.

If man was "dead" in the sense that classic Protestantism claims, then God does NOT desire all men to be saved, making Scriptures a lie - since all men are not saved. If God is the ENTIRE reason for man being justified and sanctified, then why are all men NOT sanctified and justified IF God desires all men to be saved?

Obviously, there is another part of the formula. Ignoring synergy upsets the boat and tosses some of my separated brothers into a sea of confusion.

Yes, man is responsible for his actions, but Scripture is still very clear (at least to me) that no one can come to Jesus, unless the Father draws, (drags) him.

Draws does not equal "drag", Bubba. Draw means to lead, to guide, to illuminate. "Drag" and "love" do not register together. Your idea of who God is differs from mine.

Isaiah does state that mans righteous deeds are as filthy rags (menstrual) in and of ourselves (apart from Christ. John 15:5).

Yes, apart from God, we cannot earn salvation. I have clearly noted that over and over again. But that doesn't mean we cannot desire God and beg of Him to aid us to come to Him. You associate "dead" with a physically dead man - when we are SPIRITUALLY dead. A spiritually dead man CAN desire God because God Himself is calling the man.

Yet again, this anthropology of man, derived from classic Protestantism, is a mistake, an innovation from Christianity of the preceding 1500 years. I am not aware of any Church Father who taught that man was dead in the sense the God had to "drag" him to justify him. We are drawn, Bubba. That in of itself is a fine example of "synergy", which my separated brothers, for the most part, totally ignore when deriving their theology. As a result, they make the mistake of over-emphasizing God's Sovereignty while ignoring the great gift He has given us - free will.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales,
Just some quick thoughts before I have to go to work. The debate of God’s sovereignty and mans responsibility (freewill) will go on until the New Earth and New Heavens. The Scriptures nonetheless seem very clear that the natural man (1 Cor. 2:14-15) will never choose the things of the Spirit with out spiritual regeneration. I guess the difference between you and I, is that you believe that once God has made you alive Spiritually, you can still say no to the offer of salvation through Jesus. I on the other-hand believe that the heart has been changed as what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus. Ezekiel 36:22-28, speaks of this efficacious work. In regards to grieving the Holy Spirit, this is our walk after enlightenment, in regards to those once enlightened and now have gone the way of apostasy, they never were true believers or they would still be a part of the Church (1 John 2:19). Now, I used the word “dragged†because in the Greek that is a better translation for John 6:44 and actually should be used there.
Remember Joe, that since I believe in universal reconciliation, the harshness that is often associated with God’s total sovereignty in man’s life is ultimately in the long run brought to a love relationship with the Father (1Cor. 15:20-28).
Have a good day, Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales,
I may have embellish the meaning of the Greeek word for John 6:44, sorry. This is where the word is used in other verses so you can come to your own conclusion.
Bubba

Use of "Helkuo" in the New Testament


John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

John 18:10 "Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus."

John 21:6 "And He said to them,'Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.' So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish."

John 21:11 "Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were many, the net was not broken."

Acts 16:19 "But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities."

Acts 21:30 "And all the city was disturbed; and the people ran together, seized Paul, and dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut."

James 2:6 "But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?"

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Yes, this passage is referring to spiritual death. All people before spiritual regeneration are dead to the Lord

But the opposite of that is also true: Mortal sin can cause spiritual death AFTER regeneration. A great example is in the book of Genesis. When God told Adam & Eve that they would die if they eat the forbidden fruit, he did not mean physical death, obviously, since they did not die; He meant "spiritual" death. Remember: They were created sinless, in a right relationship with God, and all this a free gift of God, but through "sin unto death" (1 John 5:16-17) i.e. "mortal" sin, by direct defiance of God, they ruptured that relationship with God.

It is still the same. We are saved by grace alone, a free gift from God, but we can rupture that relationship, which is why you CAN lose your salvation. You have free will, and God will respect your free will decision if you should choose to reject God in the future. Perhaps you cannot fathom such an event if you are a solid Christian, but people do it all the time.

 

[Bubba]

Yes, this passage is referring to spiritual death. All people before spiritual regeneration are dead to the Lord

But the opposite of that is also true: Mortal sin can cause spiritual death AFTER regeneration. A great example is in the book of Genesis. When God told Adam & Eve that they would die if they eat the forbidden fruit, he did not mean physical death, obviously, since they did not die; He meant "spiritual" death. Remember: They were created sinless, in a right relationship with God, and all this a free gift of God, but through "sin unto death" (1 John 5:16-17) i.e. "mortal" sin, by direct defiance of God, they ruptured that relationship with God.

It is still the same. We are saved by grace alone, a free gift from God, but we can rupture that relationship, which is why you CAN lose your salvation. You have free will, and God will respect your free will decision if you should choose to reject God in the future. Perhaps you cannot fathom such an event if you are a solid Christian, but people do it all the time.

CC,
Adam and Eve were the only people who had freewill in respect to spiritual decisions, after the “Fallâ€Â, mankind is sullied with a sin nature. Because of Adam and Eve’s fall, death came into the world both spiritual and physical, thus Christ sacrifice on the cross has reconciled man back to God, both physically and spiritually. The Romans 5:18 “So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.â€Â

Sin of disobedience was mortal for our first parents, in that they did die.The unpardonable sin is unbelief, true belief can not be severed (John 10:28)in this age for the elect and the next for the rest.


Bubba

 

[BobRyan]

Note the concept of "synergy" here. I - but not I (alone)... "the Grace of God WITH ME..."

Note that God expects Paul to labor - AND it is God's grace that moves Paul to labor. BOTH are necessary. Man's free will response and God's graces working within us to desire to do His will...

In other words, I can do nothing good alone. With God, I can do anything - even love my enemies.

Regards

That is the Arminian view

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Bubba]

A tidbit from Dr. Henry Morris on the unpardonable sin:

"The unforgivable sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit has been interpreted in various ways, but the true meaning cannot contradict other Scripture. It is unequivocally clear that the one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ (John 3:18; 3:36). Thus, speaking against the Holy Spirit is equivalent to rejecting Christ with such finality that no future repentance is possible. 'My spirit shall not always strive with man,' God said long ago (Genesis 6:3).
…In the context of this particular passage (Matthew 12:22-32), Jesus had performed a great miracle of creation, involving both healing and casting out a demon, but the Pharisees rejected this clear witness of the Holy Spirit. Instead they attributed His powers to Satan, thus demonstrating an attitude permanently resistant to the Spirit, and to the deity and saving Gospel of Christ"

 

[BobRyan]

Adam and Eve were the only people who had freewill in respect to spiritual decisions, after the “Fallâ€Â, mankind is sullied with a sin nature.

That is also true.

Apart from the supernatural "drawing of God" -- man is not able to make right choices after the fall -- as Adam and Eve were able to do before the fall.

But as we see in John 12:32 God solves that problem by supernaturally "drawing all".

And so all are enabled to make the choice that they could not of their ownselves make after the fall.

Because of Adam and Eve’s fall, death came into the world both spiritual and physical, thus Christ sacrifice on the cross has reconciled man back to God, both physically and spiritually. The Romans 5:18 “So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.â€Â

True - but through the supernatural drawing of ALL by Christ - all are enabled to choose.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Adam and Eve were the only people who had freewill in respect to spiritual decisions, after the “Fallâ€Â, mankind is sullied with a sin nature.

Are you saying you don't have free will? Are you a Calvinist?