Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Bubba]

[

 

[Bubba]

Adam and Eve were the only people who had freewill in respect to spiritual decisions, after the “Fallâ€Â, mankind is sullied with a sin nature.

That is also true.

Apart from the supernatural "drawing of God" -- man is not able to make right choices after the fall -- as Adam and Eve were able to do before the fall.

But as we see in John 12:32 God solves that problem by supernaturally "drawing all".

And so all are enabled to make the choice that they could not of their ownselves make after the fall.

Because of Adam and Eve’s fall, death came into the world both spiritual and physical, thus Christ sacrifice on the cross has reconciled man back to God, both physically and spiritually. The Romans 5:18 “So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.â€Â

True - but through the supernatural drawing of ALL by Christ - all are enabled to choose.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,
Thanks for your response, but I would say that John 12:32, is not about choice but about what Christ did on the cross. Which my slant would equate with universal salvation for mankind.
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Adam and Eve were the only people who had freewill in respect to spiritual decisions, after the “Fallâ€Â, mankind is sullied with a sin nature.

Are you saying you don't have free will? Are you a Calvinist?

CC,
I used to be, but I lost my religion and now simply believe in a God who really does love all people and is Sovereign nonetheless.
Peace, Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Adam and Eve were the only people who had freewill in respect to spiritual decisions, after the “Fallâ€Â, mankind is sullied with a sin nature.

Are you saying you don't have free will? Are you a Calvinist?

CC,
I used to be, but I lost my religion and now simply believe in a God who really does love all people and is Sovereign nonetheless.
Peace, Bubba

Come join us then

 

[francisdesales]

The Scriptures nonetheless seem very clear that the natural man (1 Cor. 2:14-15) will never choose the things of the Spirit with out spiritual regeneration.

This is the presumption that comes from associating a spiritually dead person with a physically dead person.

I guess the difference between you and I, is that you believe that once God has made you alive Spiritually, you can still say no to the offer of salvation through Jesus.

The Bible, both OT and NT, says that same thing...

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ez 18:24

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27

Clearly, my friend, the Bible does not guarantee that the illuminated will continue to walk in faith.

I on the other-hand believe that the heart has been changed as what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus.

yes, the heart is changed and the man accepts this change. Does this guarantee that a future lack of faith cannot cause an apostasy?

In regards to grieving the Holy Spirit, this is our walk after enlightenment, in regards to those once enlightened and now have gone the way of apostasy, they never were true believers or they would still be a part of the Church (1 John 2:19).

Then the entire concept of knowing one is saved just got flushed down the toilet - since you "may have never been a true believer in the first place"... I think one should look at 1 John 2 a bit differently.

Now, I used the word “dragged†because in the Greek that is a better translation for John 6:44 and actually should be used there.

"Drag" can mean pulling a sword out of a scabbard, something that has no ability to do this itself. However, if you look at Thayer's, "drag" can also mean to "to draw by inward power, lead, impel". When dealing with someone made in the image and likeness of God, made with free will, we must apply the second definition to "drag". We are led, impelled, drawn by an power that comes from God - but this power does not destroy our free will, which is a great gift God has given. God doesn't destroy one gift so as to give us a different one.

Again, the problem comes when one equates spiritual death with physical death...

When God impels me, I can call upon Him freely. I am not "dragged" - which suggests something done unwillingly. Love does not force something unwillingly.

Remember Joe, that since I believe in universal reconciliation, the harshness that is often associated with God’s total sovereignty in man’s life is ultimately in the long run brought to a love relationship with the Father (1Cor. 15:20-28).

I don't think substituting one error for another is correct.

The person who is wicked their entire lives (and was given by God the opportunity to repent by that natural law written in each man) will not have a relationship with the Father in heaven. Such a relationship would be more of a hell than being separated from God.

Imagine this. Say you are married to a perfect woman. Not literally, but in a human way. Beautiful, smart, forgiving, always ready to serve you and others, etc... And let's say you are not. As a matter of fact, let's say you are a bit on the harsh side, maybe others might call you selfish or whatever. At first, this relationship may go well. But in time, you would begin to HATE this other person and would hate her BECAUSE of her virtue. You would despise her and would think of any excuse to get away from her, because her virtue merely amplifies your own shortcomings.

The wicked will not be able to stand next to God - not only because nothing unclean and unholy shall see God, but because the wicked THEMSELVES will not be able to stand it....

Take care, Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Bubba said “The Scriptures nonetheless seem very clear that the natural man (1 Cor. 2:14-15) will never choose the things of the Spirit with out spiritual regeneration.â€Â

and Francisdesales wrote:
“This is the presumption that comes from associating a spiritually dead person with a physically dead person.â€Â
1 Cor. 2:14-15, “But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.â€Â

Now Bubba says-The person before generation can not and will not accept the things of God. I am not associating a spiritual dead person with actual physical death, though physical death does come to all since Adam.


But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ez 18:24

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10:26-27

From David Steward:
“Taken by itself, out of context, Ezekiel 18:24 does appear to support the doctrine that a man can fall away from salvation. However, as you will see from other Scriptures in Ezekiel, this is NOT the case at all.
Ezekiel 33:12-13 states ...
"Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."
Did you read that? ... "If he trust in his OWN righteousness." This is the heart of the matter here. God is simply condemning self-righteousness. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 ...
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
To claim that a person who commits sin can lose their salvation is to totally ignore such powerful Scriptures as Genesis 15:6 concerning Abraham, "And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." The Apostle Paul plainly stated in Romans 4:5, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." These Scriptures clearly eliminate "works" as a necessity to one's eternal salvation. The damnable heresy that a believer can lose salvation is nothing less than a form of Lordship Salvation. Whereas the Lordship Salvation crowd teaches that a person must forsake their sins to be saved; the eternal insecurity crowd teaches that committing sin will cause a person to lose salvation. Both heresies are based upon self-righteousness. Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear on the matter of salvation ... "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Again, carefully read Romans 4:5 ... "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Francisdesales in respect to Hebrews 10 as Hebrews 6, the audience in any given setting is made up of “wheat and taresâ€Â, the “tares†read into the text condemnation, the “wheat†security. Hebrew 6:9, “Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your caseâ€â€things that accompany salvation.†And Hebrews 10:39, “But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.â€Â

Bubba wrote:
Remember Joe, that since I believe in universal reconciliation, the harshness that is often associated with God’s total sovereignty in man’s life is ultimately in the long run brought to a love relationship with the Father (1Cor. 15:20-28).

Francisdesales wrote:
“I don't think substituting one error for another is correct.’

Is it an error? PM me if you want to discuss the possibilities. Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

Now Bubba says-The person before generation can not and will not accept the things of God. I am not associating a spiritual dead person with actual physical death, though physical death does come to all since Adam.

Bubba,

1 Cor 2:14-15 doesn't say anything about "regeneration". You are presuming that it does.

It says that the "natural" man, the "fleshy" man, the one who follows his own desires and needs, is the one who does not accept the things of God. First, Paul calls regenerated Christians "natural" based on how they act! Thus, this "natural" does not necessarily refer to an innate charecteristic, but an attitude. Secondly, is the pagan who loves his wife once in awhile necessarily been regenerated? Regeneration occurs when we place our faith in the gospel of Christ - that Jesus rose from the dead. At this point, we beg for forgiveness from the Father and our sins are forgiven. At this point, we are regenerated. However, I don't see that a person is regenerated just because they do a good thing, even if the Spirit is behind the act.

God's Spirit moves where He wills, placing in us the desire to follow Him. This presence that comes to all men does not necessitate regeneration.

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ez 18:24

From David Steward:
“Taken by itself, out of context, Ezekiel 18:24 does appear to support the doctrine that a man can fall away from salvation. However, as you will see from other Scriptures in Ezekiel, this is NOT the case at all.

Ezekiel 33:12-13 states ...
"Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness;

Again, the problem occurs when one forgets that BY OURSELVES, we have no righteousness in God's eyes. Paul makes that very clear in Romans. Our works without God, while perhaps judged well by men, are not judged as such by God - IF they do not have God working with the man's efforts. Any act, any at all, that is done on man's own efforts without God CANNOT please God. Hebrews also makes this clear. We cannot satisfy God without faith.

Ez 18 is not speaking of this at all! And Ez 33 says that man cannot bring favor upon himself WITHOUT God. We know that already - and has NOTHING to do with Ez 18 saying we can fall away.

When a man is moved by God - things change. The wicked can become righteous. Meanwhile, the formerly righteous who no longer rely on God - they falter and fall away. Paul makes THAT clear in 1 Cor 10:1-12. People who had faith in God lost it - and died... Paul's statement at 1 Cor 10:12 is a WARNING to those who think they are beyond falling away and SPIRITUALLY dying. We have already discussed spiritual death.

Discussing how we cannot bring justification to ourselves without God is a pointless endeavor, because we BOTH agree with that...

Did you read that? ... "If he trust in his OWN righteousness." This is the heart of the matter here. God is simply condemning self-righteousness.

Exactly. See above. Ez 33 doesn't say anything about falling away. The righteous can become self-righteous. Ever hear of Pharisees? Christians, too, can become self-righteous, thinking they are beyond faltering. The whole concept of perseverance addresses this faulty belief against the self-righteous. The Gospel writers address it as well for the SPECIFIC PURPOSE of teaching men of THEIR time to beware of self-righteousness... Remember, the material chosen by the Evangelists was for teaching others the Gospel of Christ.

To claim that a person who commits sin can lose their salvation is to totally ignore such powerful Scriptures as Genesis 15:6 concerning Abraham, "And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

He lived in the Lord. We should all strive to do that. I don't see a guarantee that God would prevent Abraham from falling away. That is why he is called our Father in Faith. He trusted in God. Not "God forced me".

The Apostle Paul plainly stated in Romans 4:5, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." These Scriptures clearly eliminate "works" as a necessity to one's eternal salvation. The damnable heresy that a believer can lose salvation is nothing less than a form of Lordship Salvation.

The damnable heresy is believing that having faith today means you are automatically going to heaven... Romans 4 says absolutely nothing about MAINTAINING faith forever.

Whereas the Lordship Salvation crowd teaches that a person must forsake their sins to be saved; the eternal insecurity crowd teaches that committing sin will cause a person to lose salvation. Both heresies are based upon self-righteousness. Ephesians 2:8-9 is clear on the matter of salvation ... "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Again, carefully read Romans 4:5 ... "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

today. And 20 years from now??? No. Abraham was counted as righteous over and over again, not just in Genesis 12... He walked from faith to faith - as Paul mentions.

Francisdesales in respect to Hebrews 10 as Hebrews 6, the audience in any given setting is made up of “wheat and taresâ€Â, the “tares†read into the text condemnation, the “wheat†security. Hebrew 6:9, “Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your caseâ€â€things that accompany salvation.†And Hebrews 10:39, “But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.â€Â

Sorry, th context of Hebrews 6 is not the same as Hebrews 10. Hebrews 10 clearly points out that Christians CAN fall away. Hebrews 6 is merely saying, as if in disbelief - HOW can someone fall away after illumination - but that is not an absolute statement, as Hebrews 10 discusses people who WOULD fall. Hebrews 3 and 4 also talk about falling away.

Bubba wrote:
Remember Joe, that since I believe in universal reconciliation, the harshness that is often associated with God’s total sovereignty in man’s life is ultimately in the long run brought to a love relationship with the Father (1Cor. 15:20-28).

Francisdesales wrote:
“I don't think substituting one error for another is correct.’

Is it an error? PM me if you want to discuss the possibilities. Bubba

The bible is FULL of the possibilities of falling away in apostasy. Practically speaking, we see it happen in real life, as well. It is wishful thinking to claim that the Bible guarantees eternal life to those who believed yesterday, but not today. We are to walk from faith to faith. That indicates a perseverance - for one must run the race to the FINISH.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales,

Ephesian 2:1-5, “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"
And

Romans 3:9-18, “What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18"(THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

And

Romans 3:24-28, “being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He )passed over the sins previously committed;
26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.â€Â

How would you interpret these Scriptures, if regeneration were not necessary before faith can be established?

Also, I have been giving a lot of thought on passages such as Hebrews 10 and Ezekiel 18, and I may have to concede that it appears that the text does talk of a falling away, though both passages have a refuge written in for the true elect or steadfast (Hebrews 10:39 and following chapters in Ezekiel like 36:22-28). Yet, for the sake of my new found belief that God will reconcile all people eventually to Himself in Christ, if a person falls from grace in this age, but in the next Hell is remedial and like the prodigal that person comes to his senses in the presence of Jesus and His angels in the Lake of Fire (not literal but a purification process in Rev. 14:11). Mind you, 2/3 of the verses in the Book of the Revelation are from the Old Testament, and in some cases almost word for word in respect to judgments that were dished out and the literal flames and torment were not for ever and ever but “age enduring†for those inflicted. Many believe that The Revelation was speaking towards an imminent judgment possibly the fall of Jerusalem (early writing of book) or Rome’s eventual fall. Granted one would not want to come under judgment in this life (Hebrews 12) or the next, so it would behoove us all to examine ourselves to determine if we are truly in the faith. With all this rambling, I guess what I am trying to say, is that God will use revelation and the events of this age to bring us to a knowledge of His Son and also in the next, because He has Sovereignly willed to be the Savior of all people (1Timothy 4:10). Hopefully the cyber cops are sleeping. PM me if you address UR stuff in detail.
Blessings, Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

To claim that a person who commits sin can lose their salvation is to totally ignore such powerful Scriptures as Genesis 15:6 concerning Abraham, "And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

The Catholic Church acknowledges what the text clearly says: "Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," referencing Genesis 15:6.

There is more to this text, however, than you seem to know. While we agree that Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15:6 as Paul said, we also note that Abraham was justified at other times in his life as well, indicating justification to have another aspect to it. So there is a sense in which justification is a past action in the life of believers, but there is another sense in which justification is revealed to be a process as well, as I said before.

Abraham was depicted as having saving faith in God long before Genesis 15:6. Abraham had already responded to God’s call in Genesis 12 with what is revealed to be saving faith, years before his encounter with the Lord in Genesis 15. In addition, Abraham is revealed to have been justified again in Genesis 22, years after Genesis 15, when he offered his son Isaac in sacrifice in obedience to the Lord.

Genesis 12:14: Now the Lord said to Abraham, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you…" So Abram went, as the Lord had told him. Compare Hebrews 11:6,8: And without faith it is impossible to please God… By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called… and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.

Genesis 15:4,6: "This man [a slave] shall not be your heir; your own son shall be your heir." And [Abram] believed the Lord: and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. Compare Romans 4:3: For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Genesis 22:15-17: And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, and said, "By myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendents as the stars of heaven… because you have obeyed my voice." Compare James 2:21-22,24: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?… faith was completed by works… You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The Bible tells us Abraham had faith way back in Genesis 12. And according to Hebrews 11:6-8, this was not a natural faith analogous to the faith the demons have (see James 2:19), but rather a supernatural and saving faith given as a gift from God. If Abraham was not justified until Genesis 15:6, how could he already have saving faith in Genesis 12? In addition, if Abraham was justified once and for all in Genesis 15:6, why did he need to be justified again in Genesis 22 according to James 2:21? The reason is simple: According to these texts, justification is revealed in Scripture to be a process rather than a mere one-time event.

 

[BobRyan]

[
Bob,
Thanks for your response, but I would say that John 12:32, is not about choice but about what Christ did on the cross. Which my slant would equate with universal salvation for mankind.
Bubba

Bubba -

Christ's choice according to John 12:32 is to "Draw all mankind unto him".

Whenever Calvnists speak of the total depravity of man as a result of the fall - and the sinful nature -- all that depravity "disables" in terms of "choice" is said to be "enabled" through the sovereign supernatural "drawing of God" -

This means that the argument "against choice" can only apply to those whom God does not draw -- and according to John 12:32 He "draws all".

As you point out -- this does not mean that "all are choosing" rightly -- it simply means that all are drawn and enabled to choose. Therefore "If anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door" -- the choice to accept Christ -- applies to "all".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Bubba]

To claim that a person who commits sin can lose their salvation is to totally ignore such powerful Scriptures as Genesis 15:6 concerning Abraham, "And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

The Catholic Church acknowledges what the text clearly says: "Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," referencing Genesis 15:6.

There is more to this text, however, than you seem to know. While we agree that Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15:6 as Paul said, we also note that Abraham was justified at other times in his life as well, indicating justification to have another aspect to it. So there is a sense in which justification is a past action in the life of believers, but there is another sense in which justification is revealed to be a process as well, as I said before.

Abraham was depicted as having saving faith in God long before Genesis 15:6. Abraham had already responded to God’s call in Genesis 12 with what is revealed to be saving faith, years before his encounter with the Lord in Genesis 15. In addition, Abraham is revealed to have been justified again in Genesis 22, years after Genesis 15, when he offered his son Isaac in sacrifice in obedience to the Lord.

Genesis 12:14: Now the Lord said to Abraham, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you…" So Abram went, as the Lord had told him. Compare Hebrews 11:6,8: And without faith it is impossible to please God… By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called… and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.

Genesis 15:4,6: "This man [a slave] shall not be your heir; your own son shall be your heir." And [Abram] believed the Lord: and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. Compare Romans 4:3: For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Genesis 22:15-17: And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, and said, "By myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendents as the stars of heaven… because you have obeyed my voice." Compare James 2:21-22,24: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?… faith was completed by works… You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The Bible tells us Abraham had faith way back in Genesis 12. And according to Hebrews 11:6-8, this was not a natural faith analogous to the faith the demons have (see James 2:19), but rather a supernatural and saving faith given as a gift from God. If Abraham was not justified until Genesis 15:6, how could he already have saving faith in Genesis 12? In addition, if Abraham was justified once and for all in Genesis 15:6, why did he need to be justified again in Genesis 22 according to James 2:21? The reason is simple: According to these texts, justification is revealed in Scripture to be a process rather than a mere one-time event.

CC,
True faith will have works as was demonstrated with Abraham. I think I have all ready agreed that
our regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification is dove tailed together, but it is all of God working in us as stated in Phil.2:13. Also, Phil.1:6, "being confident of this, that He who began a work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus". I lean to the side of God's sovereignty as you well know, but we could debate forever if man adds to this formula his own ability. I know the Scripture talks a great deal about man's responsibilty, but Scripture also states no one will seek Him, none are righteous, all good gifts come from above, the heart is desparately evil and etc. For me I want to give glory to God for what ever we accomplish in this realm that is of worth.
Grace, Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

Ephesian 2:1-5

Before Christ redeems and we accept in faith His work, we have no relationship with God. We are spiritually dead in sin (which is not the same as physically dead). This does not mean we cannot desire God, but we are unable to re-establish that relationship without the Spirit. Regeneration is the forgiveness of sins, not the initial desire to seek God.

Romans 3:9-18

The Jews with the written Law were not better than the Gentiles without the written Mosaic Law. Having the Law merely makes one more guilty of sin, because they have been informed of what God desires and still disobey.

Romans 3:24-28

Continuation of above. Only faith in God justifies. Not works of the Law - since even Gentiles (like Abraham) were justified WITHOUT the written Law through faith...

I know this does not give an incredibly detailed response, but I find that getting to the point rather quickly will more likely be read and meditated upon then a three paragraph answer...

How would you interpret these Scriptures, if regeneration were not necessary before faith can be established?

The first workings of faith come from the Spirit. But that first desire to seek God is not regeneration. That occurs only when we make a proclamation with our mouths, mind, and heart, as in Romans 10 - which speaks of Baptism.

Also, I have been giving a lot of thought on passages such as Hebrews 10 and Ezekiel 18, and I may have to concede that it appears that the text does talk of a falling away, though both passages have a refuge written in for the true elect or steadfast (Hebrews 10:39 and following chapters in Ezekiel like 36:22-28). Yet, for the sake of my new found belief that God will reconcile all people eventually to Himself in Christ, if a person falls from grace in this age, but in the next Hell is remedial and like the prodigal that person comes to his senses in the presence of Jesus and His angels in the Lake of Fire (not literal but a purification process in Rev. 14:11).

Well, I commend you for at least considering this...

I do not find Scriptures that speak of eternal fire as "remedial". Jesus speaks over and over about "cast out into the darkness where there will be a gnashing of teeth". I don't sense that this is temporary. As a matter of fact, I believe God is being merciful BY sending such to hell, far away from God's presence. It would be even MORE torturous to be in God's presence if you didn't WANT to be there, no?

Mind you, 2/3 of the verses in the Book of the Revelation are from the Old Testament, and in some cases almost word for word in respect to judgments that were dished out and the literal flames and torment were not for ever and ever but “age enduring†for those inflicted. Many believe that The Revelation was speaking towards an imminent judgment possibly the fall of Jerusalem (early writing of book) or Rome’s eventual fall. Granted one would not want to come under judgment in this life (Hebrews 12) or the next, so it would behoove us all to examine ourselves to determine if we are truly in the faith. With all this rambling, I guess what I am trying to say, is that God will use revelation and the events of this age to bring us to a knowledge of His Son and also in the next, because He has Sovereignly willed to be the Savior of all people (1Timothy 4:10). Hopefully the cyber cops are sleeping. PM me if you address UR stuff in detail.
Blessings, Bubba

One of the underlying themes of Christianity is that we will be judged on our morality, our ethical compass. Throughout Scriptures, we see the theme of God punishing the wicked, those who refuse to turn to Him. Now, if God will totally ignore our direction in life and grant us heaven ANYWAYS, what exactly IS the point in persevering? While I can see a purging of someone who has a general direction towards God but is not quite that holy yet in the afterworld (what Catholics call "Purgatory"), I do not find the concept that the wicked, who DO NOT consider God AT ALL, to be "purged" later. All we see is death, an air of finality.

As to PM'ing, feel free to send me some Scriptures where you believe that the wicked will be saved in the end. I would be interested in hearing them.

Blessings,

Joe

 

[Bubba]

One of the underlying themes of Christianity is that we will be judged on our morality, our ethical compass. Throughout Scriptures, we see the theme of God punishing the wicked, those who refuse to turn to Him. Now, if God will totally ignore our direction in life and grant us heaven ANYWAYS, what exactly IS the point in persevering? While I can see a purging of someone who has a general direction towards God but is not quite that holy yet in the afterworld (what Catholics call "Purgatory"), I do not find the concept that the wicked, who DO NOT consider God AT ALL, to be "purged" later. All we see is death, an air of finality.

As to PM'ing, feel free to send me some Scriptures where you believe that the wicked will be saved in the end. I would be interested in hearing them.

Blessings,

Remember Joe, I do not say that there is no Hell for those who remain in unbelief from this realm, I just do not believe it's eternal. How did the RCC come up with Purgatory? I sent a PM did you get it?
Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

One of the underlying themes of Christianity is that we will be judged on our morality, our ethical compass. Throughout Scriptures, we see the theme of God punishing the wicked, those who refuse to turn to Him. Now, if God will totally ignore our direction in life and grant us heaven ANYWAYS, what exactly IS the point in persevering? While I can see a purging of someone who has a general direction towards God but is not quite that holy yet in the afterworld (what Catholics call "Purgatory"), I do not find the concept that the wicked, who DO NOT consider God AT ALL, to be "purged" later. All we see is death, an air of finality.

As to PM'ing, feel free to send me some Scriptures where you believe that the wicked will be saved in the end. I would be interested in hearing them.

Blessings,

Remember Joe, I do not say that there is no Hell for those who remain in unbelief from this realm, I just do not believe it's eternal. How did the RCC come up with Purgatory? I sent a PM did you get it?
Bubba

Bubba,

Yes, I got your PM. I am probably not going to be able to respond to it in the depth that I would like until tomorrow or Tuesday, so I ask you be patient with me. I'll have to do a bit of research. I agree with a lot of what you say regarding OT defintions of the afterlife, and would say that these beliefs held at the time were transitional and not complete. Only with Christ do we get more complete revelation.

I will look in particular at Origen and those who opposed his views regarding the eternity of the punishment of hell, since he advocated a limited punishment and the Church regarded this view as incorrect. I will have to look at the more specific reasoning from these men of 250 AD.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Guys! :D

Let's not forget what's written:
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Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (underline is my own).
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Since "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God," AND "the wages of sin is death." Then It follows logically that since everyone has sinned, everyone must experience some type of death. So if God's Word cannot lie, then Enoch's and Elijah's total escape from the grave definitely needs to be explained, especially in regard to this following verse:
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Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (underline is my own).
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What makes things even more interesting, is that all the people Jesus raised from the dead during His Earthly ministry (Lazarus, Jairus daughter, the widow of Nain's son, etc.), in fact everyone in the entire bible ever raised from death, all had to die TWICE. And what's even MORE interesting is that after dying once and being resurrected back to life, they all inadvertently had a SECOND CHANCE to show faith towards God and receive their salvation. Who says death ends all possibilities for salvation? :o

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
----------

 

[Bubba]

Thanks Arph!

 

[Bubba]

One of the underlying themes of Christianity is that we will be judged on our morality, our ethical compass. Throughout Scriptures, we see the theme of God punishing the wicked, those who refuse to turn to Him. Now, if God will totally ignore our direction in life and grant us heaven ANYWAYS, what exactly IS the point in persevering? While I can see a purging of someone who has a general direction towards God but is not quite that holy yet in the afterworld (what Catholics call "Purgatory"), I do not find the concept that the wicked, who DO NOT consider God AT ALL, to be "purged" later. All we see is death, an air of finality.

As to PM'ing, feel free to send me some Scriptures where you believe that the wicked will be saved in the end. I would be interested in hearing them.

Blessings,

Remember Joe, I do not say that there is no Hell for those who remain in unbelief from this realm, I just do not believe it's eternal. How did the RCC come up with Purgatory? I sent a PM did you get it?
Bubba

Bubba,

Yes, I got your PM. I am probably not going to be able to respond to it in the depth that I would like until tomorrow or Tuesday, so I ask you be patient with me. I'll have to do a bit of research. I agree with a lot of what you say regarding OT defintions of the afterlife, and would say that these beliefs held at the time were transitional and not complete. Only with Christ do we get more complete revelation.

I will look in particular at Origen and those who opposed his views regarding the eternity of the punishment of hell, since he advocated a limited punishment and the Church regarded this view as incorrect. I will have to look at the more specific reasoning from these men of 250 AD.

Take care,

Joe

Joe, no problem, I am busy with a plumbing problem my wife and I didn't know we had
until I started taking the Kitchen apart for remodeling. Nothing is ever easy, when you work on a old house.
Bubba

 

[Pogo]

OK...everyone, let's take a short time out here, and allow me to sayisfy my curiosity by taking a quick survey, please.

Before I plow through all twenty-something pages of this thread in order to attempt to offer my own views on this issue, AT THIS POINT, HAS ANYONE CHANGED THEIR POSITION ON 'OSAS' AS A RESULT OF ANY LIGHT THAT HAS BEEN SHED IN THIS THREAD ITSELF?

Thanks in advance for any comments that may be offered!

May God bless us all,

Pogo

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Everybody! :D

Yes, not only did Jesus' willing sacrifice on that bloody Roman cross obliterate ALL sin forever (as proven by Jesus' resurrection), but it also cleansed and sanctified all creation including all mankind. However this does NOT mean all are automatically saved. Each person must decide to accept Jesus' completed work for themselves personally as righteous Abel, Abraham, and all the Jews coming out of Egypt did symbolically by their blood sacrifices offered to the Lord :o :
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Col 1:26-27 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest (revealed) to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the imaginary Beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hbr 9:25-26 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

(underlines, parentheses, size and color emphasis are my own).
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So obviously, from the above verses we can see that the Lord is not restricted by time as we humans are. In the physical, Christ's selfless sacrifice on that bloody Roman cross occurred about 33 A.D. But in the spirit all the works were finished before the first man was ever created. There is no time in the spirit.

And yes, Christ absolutely HAD to cleanse and sanctify the entire creation, including ALL mankind, right from the foundation of the world in order that the Father could even look upon it. And here's the situation of those who willingly reject their completed priceless gift of justification and sanctification (the "willingly unsaved"):
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Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (underline and color emphasis are my own).
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Best Blessings,
"Arph"
------------

 

[Arphaxad]

Hey Pogo! :D

OSAS? OSAS refers only to a change of status to being cleared of all guilt. However, God's salvation is far, far greater than a simple change of status.

How about OBAFBA? (Once born again, forever born again?). That's pronounced: "Oh-baf-ba." Yes I definitely believe that God's inner work within the spirit of all believers is forever:
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2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his (God's) seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin (is incapable of sin [in his spirit]), because he is born of God.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Ecc 3:1 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth [it], that [men] should fear before him.

(underlines, parentheses and color emphases are my own).
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Salvation is GOD'S work, not puny Man's. How can a man make or keep himself righteous or regenerate his own spirit? Moreover even ONE sin destroys any possibility of righteousness:
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Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Deu 28:15-21 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do ALL his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

16 Cursed [shalt] thou [be] in the city, and cursed [shalt] thou [be] in the field.

17 Cursed [shall be] thy basket and thy store.

18 Cursed [shall be] the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

19 Cursed [shalt] thou [be] when thou comest in, and cursed [shalt] thou [be] when thou goest out.

20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.

(there are 47 more verses of the most extreme curses after these 21 from Deuteronomy 28. All these curses are promised by the Lord to all who do not keep all 613 of His holy laws perfectly).

(underlines, size and color emphases are my own).
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So if anyone desires to keep themselves saved and not lose their salvation, they must keep all 613 of God's holy laws perfectly without ever breaking even one. If anyone besides Jesus could ever do this, it would be TRUE righteousness, not just our own made-up, vague, "homespun" version of righteousness, with which too many believers deceive themselves into thinking they're walking righteously before the Lord:
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But here's a secret: Being a believer in Christ with His spirit in me, I am counted by God as keeping every single one of all God's 613 holy laws PERFECTLY! That's a blessing of being a believer in Christ and having His spirit within me. Otherwise I wouldn't have a chance! Also, since I'm now counted as keeping all God's holy laws, I'm also now entitled to all the BLESSINGS in Deuteronomy 28 with none of the curses! :smt041
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Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.(underlines and color emphases are my own).
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Sinning is thinning,
"Arph"
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