Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Pogo]

Arphaxed -

I'm going to have to do some studying just to determine what you said. My little brain sees this topic as identical to OSAS, it may not be perfectly the same thing, but it seems close to me.

Anywho...

As I see this issue, the question has already been correctly answered many, many times in the pages of this thread above.

Unfortunately, it has also been incorrectly answered many, many times.

As someone has already posted, the proper foundation must first be laid to properly understand these scriptures. Unfortunately, I disagree with their opinion of exactly what this proper foundation is.

In my view, the proper foundation is composed of several elements.

First, we have to understand, and agree, that –

- God does NOT lie. Hebrews 6:18

- God is NOT the author of confusion. 1 Corinthians 14:33

- ALL scripture is inspired of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16

- Christians ARE to study, making every effort to properly interpret God’s word. 2 Timothy 2:15

- EACH Christian is ultimately responsible for their own salvation. Philippians 2:12

These verses above provide us with a rock solid foundation to stand on as we pursue the answer to this, seemingly, difficult question.

Hopefully, everyone will also agree that where any two passages are in conflict, one, if not both, is being misinterpreted. Misinterpretation is a prime source of confusion, which, as we have already established, is NOT of God!

First, let’s compare two related verses, one against the other…

John 3 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

…and…

John 8 KJV
(51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Most people that I’ve discussed this issue with, see these two verses as conflicting with each other. They see one passage as calling for obedience, and one passage as calling only for belief.

Now, in order to determine which of the answers, already posted in this thread above, are correct, and which are incorrect, we need to first answer a different question.

This question is –

Do words such as believe, faith, trust, endure, etc., as they are found in the scriptures of the Bible, TRULY imply that obedience, and/or work, on our part, is necessary to be properly interpreted?

In an effort to keep this post shorter, and more readable, I’m only going to post a few verses of the hundreds that apply here, to illustrate my point.

Some here may compare John 3:16 above, to these few additional verses below which all call for our obedience, and see that they, likewise, conflict with John 3:16.

In my view, the few verses below say essentially the same IDENTICAL thing as John 3:16 AND John 8:51, above…


Matthew 7 KJV
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 14 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14 KJV
(21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 John 2 KJV
(4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Simple obedience, when added to the meaning of the conflicting passages regarding this topic, makes the conflict go away.

See this example below…

John 3 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in (and obeys) him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Many will still reject it, but obedience IS required of us all.

May God bless us all,

Pogo

 

[Bubba]

Pogo,
Much of Scripture as I have written before is paradoxical, the problem is that we try to stay in one camp and not both. I say God is indeed sovereign in all things even our salvation and walk after salvation, but Scripture is also very clear that man is culpable for the choices he makes. Here in the west, we want to try and unravel the mysteries of God instead of accepting the fact that two complete concepts can be different and yet still harmonize in God's economy of things.
Peace and Grace, Bubba

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Guys!

The problem here is with definitions: Obedience is believing and believing is obedience. Abraham believed God and was obedient by offering the most important thing in his life (Isaac) to God, believing that the Lord would not let Isaac be killed. Righteous Able was obedient to God by bringing a blood sacrifice to the Lord while Cain brought only fruit and was rejected. Somehow Abel knew that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin:
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Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Cain completely missed it.

So the "works of faith" as described in scripture, are not always necessarily what we would call "good works." viz. Giving to the poor, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, etc. Often the "works of faith" are just believing and thus obeying God. Works like giving 10% of our income to the Lord. Now there's a HUGE work of faith we can do today! But, even though it would make them abundantly prosperous, most believers will never do it:
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Jhn 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

(underlines, size and color emphases are my own).
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It all boils down to this: If receiving/keeping God's free gift of salvation was difficult, then every believer would be boasting about how much difficulty and labor they had to go through to be saved. Moreover, they would all be comparing their hard work of getting/staying saved with how hard their fellow believers had worked and pretty soon you'd have a contest to see who had worked the hardest at their salvation. And from that point it would be just boasting, arguing, fighting, and every evil work!

So the Lord makes receiving/keeping His free gift of salvation so incredibly easy that no one can ever brag. They can only hang their head and say: "I was a dead man, faithless and completely lost in my rebellion, but the Lord reached out, washed away all my sin and "resurrected" me to be a new creature, alive unto Him."

Sinning is morbidly thinning,
"Arph"
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P.S. Pogo, I went back and edited my previous post on salvation to make it easier to understand. The main idea there is that salvation is WAY more than Jesus just paying the penalty for a person's sin. That's only the beginning. When a person comes to God for salvation, the Lord also does a permanent work deep down inside them. And that inner work of God is forever, it's called the New Birth.

 

[Bubba]

1John 5:1-5:

"1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. "

When you read these verses you realize that we are to obey His commands and everyone born of God will. The reason we are able to obey His commands, is because they are not burdensome to the born again believer. The true believer has already overcome the world (sin) the moment he or she believes in Jesus(verse 4and 5) and is covered by the blood of the Lamb.

Colossians 1:21-22,
Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now He has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation."

This is the covering of Christ, who became sin in our behalf and was the sacrifice once and for all times.
Blessings, Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

It all boils down to this: If receiving/keeping God's free gift of salvation was difficult, then every believer would be boasting about how much difficulty and labor they had to go through to be saved. Moreover, they would all be comparing their hard work of getting/staying saved with how hard their fellow believers had worked and pretty soon you'd have a contest to see who had worked the hardest at their salvation. And from that point it would be just boasting, arguing, fighting, and every evil work!

So the Lord makes receiving/keeping His free gift of salvation so incredibly easy that no one can ever brag.

While I agree with some of what you say, I disagree that "remaining saved" is "easy". It is a struggle. Especially in today's society. The devil constantly is tempting us to sin, to become slaves again to our past lives. We are told to persevere - and not because it is easy! It IS hard work. Denying that is denying reality.

However, my persevering is not my work alone. This is how I avoid your "boasting". By realizing that I can only persevere with God's ever-abiding help, moving my will to do things that my "fleshy self" does not WANT to do. Be loving to others??? Turn the other cheek??? Give money to people who choose not to work??? Oh, yea, that's really easy.

Well, for me, it's not. And I beg God to help me, because without Him, I can do NO good.

Admitting that perseverance is hard work doesn't necessarily lead to boasting and arguing. Trying to take ALL the credit leads to that. Being religiously proud leads to that.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

fran,

Just when I begin to 'think' that you and I have COMPLETELY diverse understandings you jump in with something like this. Then I think that YOU DO 'get it'.

You ARE absolutely correct. It IS 'pride', (foolish pride), that is ABLE to lead us in opposition to The Spirit. JUST as Satan's pride was the CAUSE of his fall, so too will WE fall as well IF we are NOT able to overcome it. And we must NEVER forget that he WILL offer us the temptations to bring this EXACT 'rebelion' into our lives, (if we LET him).

Forum members,

I see that we STILL struggle to define WHAT a 'true Christian' IS. For to answer the question posed in this thread, we must FIRST come to an understanding of WHAT a 'true Christian' IS.

The NAME is easy to define. But the reality of BEING a Christian is MORE than mere 'words' that we SPEAK. For it is NOT the 'hearers ONLY that will inherit, but the DOERS. I know that MANY would refute these words, but scripture CANNOT lie or it is NOT inspired and therefore of NONE effect.

ANY 'gift' CAN be 'refused'. ANYTHING that can be OBTAINED can be LOST. God's love is permanent but that does NOT mean that He is unable to JUDGE who and HOW His love is offered to mankind.

Our LIMITED ability to discern TRUE love makes us UNWORTHY to determine HOW it is dispersed. That SO MANY would accept contrary definition of LOVE goes to show just how DIFFICULT it IS for mankind to UNDERSTAND it.

Those that live WITHOUT IT are doomed to suffer for their LACK of it. Who's to say that it is NOT a 'gift' to END this suffering for those so void by the TOTAL elimination of their existence. What many would consider a DENIAL of what God has to offer may WELL BE a 'gift' in itself. For what KIND of God would allow His creation to suffer so?

To clarify MY position on this topic: While one could NEVER 'go back' in DENIAL of God's existence ONCE He has REVEALED Himself, that does NOT mean that they cannot REBEL against His will. The parable of the seeds falling on different ground shows poiniently that there are MANY different approaches that we are ABLE to take in reference to the acceptance or denial of the 'gift' that has been offered. And we can CLEARLY see through the reference that those that fall on ANYTHING BUT 'righteous ground' are doomed to distruction. Not MY words but that which IS offered in scripture.

I know what the fundementalist TEACH now days. They offer what ITCHING ears WISH to hear. But that offers NO PROOF of truth. The liberalism that we witness in 'todays' churches has ONLY existed for a VERY short period of time. And if one TRULY desires to UNDERSTAND it, it is APPARENT that the 'churches' have bowed to the 'wishes of men' rather than STANDING up for the principles of God.

The 'let it all hang out' and 'just be yourself' concepts offered up in the 60's and 70's have SEEMED to have produced a 'specific' effect on society at ALL levels; INCLUDING religion. Whereas those that ONCE professed a 'belief' in The Word were WILLING to accept it as OFFERED, many in todays society have chosen to ALTER it's MEANING into that which APPEASES the FLESH. Choosing to worship SELF instead of Our Creator. Choosing ENTERTAINMENT over sound guidance. And choosing to FOLLOW those that are ABLE to offer that which is PLEASING to THEM. Altering the glory to SELF rather than God.

This IN ITSELF offers PROOF that OSAS is nothing but a 'fable' or 'fantasy'. For ONCE we KNEW that we WERE liable to STAY in The Spirit, many have been taught today that it DOESN'T matter. That we can LIVE our lives IN and FOR the world and STILL receive that which God has offered. In TOTAL contradiction to ALL that is offered so far as STIPULATION, many would choose to simply BELIEVE in THEMSELVES rather than accept the WHOLESOME and righteous words of God.

Only to BE expected for the apostles TWO THOUSAND years ago spoke of 'such a time' in the furture when there would COME a 'falling away'. NO, folks, NOT from 'religion', but from TRUTH. For religion is BIGGER today than EVER. There are MORE people filling the pews NOW than in anytime in history. But if we take a cursory glimpse at what is 'going on' in the churches we can CLEARLY SEE that it is NOT an adherance but a diversion.

Since we can't even come to an overall conclusion as to WHAT a 'Christian IS' then we certainly cannot accurately answer the question offered up in this topic. And this iN ITSELF just goes to SHOW how FAR indeed we have veered from THE TRUTH.

BLessings,

MEC

 

[Arphaxad]

Hello again Francis!

Thanks for writing.

You wrote: "While I agree with some of what you say, I disagree that "remaining saved" is "easy". It is a struggle. Especially in today's society. The devil constantly is tempting us to sin, to become slaves again to our past lives. We are told to persevere - and not because it is easy! It IS hard work. Denying that is denying reality." (end quote).

At this point I think we definitely need to make a distinction between the spiritual and the physical: When I spoke of God making the receiving/keeping of His FREE GIFT of salvation incredibly easy, I was speaking of God's eternal inner transformation done in every believer's spirit, rather than our walk in this present physical life.

I definitely agree that bringing the results of God's inner spiritual transformation, done within all believers, into the physical reality of our everyday lives, takes great determination and effort. And VERY few actually succeed in doing it 100%. Assuming for the sake of argument that God has already accomplished a permanent spiritual transformation within all believers, then why should believers bother bringing it's results into our everyday physical lives anyway?:
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Mat 13:3-9 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground (the children of the Kingdom), and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful (but not totally lost).


Mat 13:31-32 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed (God's Word [instructions]), which a man took, and sowed in his field (into his life):

32 Which indeed is the least (regarded) of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Mar 4:21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

(parentheses and color emphases are my own).
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Again, assuming for the sake of argument that all believers have had a complete and eternal spiritual transformation by God, then why bother putting forth the effort to bring it's results into everyday life? Could the Lord actually care about the quality of our everyday lives? :o :
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Pro 4:10-13 Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many.

11 I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths.

12 When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble.

13 Take fast hold of instruction; let [her] not go: keep her; for she [is] thy life.

Mar 4:21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?
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Sinning is morbidly thinning,
"Arph"
-------------------

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

Just when I begin to 'think' that you and I have COMPLETELY diverse understandings you jump in with something like this. Then I think that YOU DO 'get it'.

It was only a matter of time before I would get something "right".

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

At this point I think we definitely need to make a distinction between the spiritual and the physical: When I spoke of God making the receiving/keeping of His FREE GIFT of salvation incredibly easy, I was speaking of God's eternal inner transformation done in every believer's spirit, rather than our walk in this present physical life.

Does not this transformation lead to and is verified by the present walk? It appears that you consider this transformation as some legal status that doesn't really effect the person's walk and another force is depended upon to move the will of the person and his walk. God plants within us the first fruits of the Spirit - He doesn't give us the FULLNESS of that Spirit. We walk from faith to faith, growing in faith, hope and love. The transformation is not complete upon our baptism, but is a seed whose growth is nutured by God.

I definitely agree that bringing the results of God's inner spiritual transformation, done within all believers, into the physical reality of our everyday lives, takes great determination and effort. And VERY few actually succeed in doing it 100%. Assuming for the sake of argument that God has already accomplished a permanent spiritual transformation within all believers, then why should believers bother bringing it's results into our everyday physical lives anyway?

Why would I assume that God has accomplished a "permanent spiritual transformation" when one's walk does NOT verify that? The problem is thinking that God has done everything needed to be done when you are first justified, when in reality, we are still immature Christians who need milk before we can take in meat. The various communities display how MUCH the Christians first evangelized by Paul were "permanently spiritually transformed". Men fell away, men continued to follow the flesh, men were exhorted to good works, men were told not to grieve the Spirit, etc. If man was permanently and completely spiritually transformed, what prevents him from walking totally in Christ?

Mat 13:3-9 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground (the children of the Kingdom), and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice they ALL recieved the seed, but not all brought forth fruit. Some of these failed. Some withered away. Some were choked of God's Word. Clearly, the "seed" does not bring forth the fruit all the time, and thus, the idea of a permanant spiritual transformation is denied here.

Mar 4:21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick?

Yes, what is the point? Thus, God's Spirit does not fully transform someone in an instant. Our sanctification is a process. We walk from faith to faith, growing in the knowledge and experience of Christ. We know we have the Spirit with us when we obey the commandments. Thus, I do not really see this "perfect transformation of the spirit" when men continue to live with concupiscence, temptations, and iniquity in their lives.

Regards

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Francis!

Again, thanks for your thoughtful response. I think I must clarify (or rather allow God's Word to clarify) the concept of God's priceless free gift of justification AND complete spiritual transformation freely given to all who come to Him for salvation.

The scriptures (especially Paul), tell us over and over about the spiritual death of the "old man of sin" that all believers used to be, and their God-wrought "resurrection" as new creatures alive into God. We are also told that we have been adopted into the spiritual lineage of the "Last Adam" as God's holy children:
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2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. (underlines and color emphases are my own).
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There is overwhelming scriptural evidence for all the concepts I have just written in the previous two paragraphs. And hopefully I make no mistake in believing that you're familiar with most, if not all of it.

We are also told to: "Be transformed by the renewing of our minds." THERE'S OUR PART, not the spiritual transformation done by the Lord within all believers, that's GOD'S part.

So as you said earlier there's a synergy between God and Man. But exactly WHAT is the goal of this mutual effort? Being received into God's eternal Kingdom? Yes that's certainly a major part of it. But according to all I have carefully read in scripture over the past 38 years, our acceptability into God's eternal Kingdom is ONLY based on the believer's miraculous God-wrought inner transformation as a spiritually new creature in Christ, just as it was for the thief on the cross who had no possibility of bringing his God-given gift of inner holiness into his physical life except by his words in defending and accepting Jesus and asking that he might be remembered when Jesus comes into His Kingdom.

Here's the crux of the problem here: We're dealing with things in the spirit which cannot be seen and then attempting to judge them with out physical eyes and our own man-made standards. Jesus strongly advised against this idea:
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Jhn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (underlines and color emphases are my own).
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Looking back into scripture to carefully assess the things within the men of God that pleased the Lord, we will be VERY surprised at what the Lord was pleased with. His standard for righteousness is MUCH broader, far more merciful, and vastly superior to Man's narrow arbitrary standards.

When David killed Uriah to obtain Bathsheba for himself, the Lord showed him what he'd done and David was truly frightened of the consequences and asked the Lord for mercy. So the Lord forgave David completely. The problem was that David didn't forgive David AT ALL! and the rest of David's life was a living hell. It's MUCH easier for the Lord to forgive us than it is to forgive ourselves.

Here's another example: Did Abraham's lying about Sarah being his sister please the Lord? I doubt it. But neither did God cast him away for it either. But when Abraham trusted the life of his most precious son, Isaac, to the Lord. Now THAT pleased the Lord VERY much! And God then said to Abraham:
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Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
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So we need to broaden our thinking a bit so we can begin to understand God's ideas of righteousness and holiness. We also need to remember that the Lord will definitely fight against those who fight against Him and His. All love for God and His children originates only in our God-transformed hearts. True, we can act on it, but it didn't ever originate with us. I wish I could find some virtue in myself or Man in general, but my only virtue is that I frequently agree with God. 8-)

Everyone will probably think this is very vain, but often when I write a post such as this one, I sit back and read it and say to myself: "I KNOW I couldn't have written this!" :o

Very Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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[Catholic Crusader]

...I must clarify (or rather allow God's Word to clarify) the concept of God's priceless free gift of justification AND complete spiritual transformation freely given...

Is that like the free gift freely given to Adam & Eve, which they freely chose to throw away?

If you continue to view salvation as a one-time event instead of a process, you will continually be given to this wrong conclusion

 

[francisdesales]

Hello, Arphaxad - I also appreciate your thoughtful responses...

The scriptures (especially Paul), tell us over and over about the spiritual death of the "old man of sin" that all believers used to be, and their God-wrought "resurrection" as new creatures alive into God. We are also told that we have been adopted into the spiritual lineage of the "Last Adam" as God's holy children:

I agree with that. However, Paul has a different idea in mind regarding "spiritually dead". It does NOT mean, as Protestant anthropology presumes. Being spiritually dead is NOT the same as being physically dead. Being spiritually dead means we have no relationship with God. We are dead in sin. I would ask you to consult the parable of the Prodigal Son, where Jesus calls the prodigal "dead" - although it was the SON who returned to the father. This does not eliminate Paul's concept that we can do nothing without God. We presume that our will is indeed enlightened and moved by God. We are justified by faith, and not by our work. But just the same, a spiritually dead person is not the same as a physically dead person. And this is the mistake made by many.

There is overwhelming scriptural evidence for all the concepts I have just written in the previous two paragraphs. And hopefully I make no mistake in believing that you're familiar with most, if not all of it.

And I agree. It is a fine line we walk here, Arph. Let's not forget that a relationship requires one who has the initiative (God) and one who responds (man), even if this response is aided by God Himself. God EXPECTS us to respond - and we are held liable. But what are we giving to God? Something from us alone? No, St. Augustine says we are merely returning God's gifts of grace to Him. We are using the gifts He has given us, without which we couldn't have a relationship with God.

It is a fine line, dancing between the free will of man and the election of men. Romans 9-10 discusses this balance.

We are also told to: "Be transformed by the renewing of our minds." THERE'S OUR PART, not the spiritual transformation done by the Lord within all believers, that's GOD'S part.

We are not two separate entities, my friend. WE are body and soul. When and if God grants His mercy to us for His own reason, He saves BOTH body and soul. If He allows us to be condemned through our evil choices, He condemns BOTH body and soul. The Spirit inhabits the PERSON and enables us as a unit to act. Not just think and will. Our bodies are also involved. Thus, God is involved in the entire process. There is not "this part is God's and this part is mine". While in Christ, everything we do is of God and of man. Just like everything Jesus did was done by God and done by man simultaneously, my brother.

So as you said earlier there's a synergy between God and Man. But exactly WHAT is the goal of this mutual effort? Being received into God's eternal Kingdom? Yes that's certainly a major part of it. But according to all I have carefully read in scripture over the past 38 years, our acceptability into God's eternal Kingdom is ONLY based on the believer's miraculous God-wrought inner transformation as a spiritually new creature in Christ, just as it was for the thief on the cross who had no possibility of bringing his God-given gift of inner holiness into his physical life except by his words in defending and accepting Jesus and asking that he might be remembered when Jesus comes into His Kingdom.

In the end, that is true, we enter the Kingdom based on God's mercy. However, our merits instilled in us by God while in Christ are secondary causes. God commands and expects obedience, for example. These gain us merit in the secondary sense, not the primary. We cannot do anything without God of merit. However, since God is righteous, we rest our hope on His Word that He WILL reward those who allow the Spirit to work within them.

Here's the crux of the problem here: We're dealing with things in the spirit which cannot be seen and then attempting to judge them with out physical eyes and our own man-made standards. Jesus strongly advised against this idea:
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Jhn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. (underlines and color emphases are my own).
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Looking back into scripture to carefully assess the things within the men of God that pleased the Lord, we will be VERY surprised at what the Lord was pleased with. His standard for righteousness is MUCH broader, far more merciful, and vastly superior to Man's narrow arbitrary standards.

True, I have said the same when I have posted about God's mercy extending even to Muslims of good will...

So we need to broaden our thinking a bit so we can begin to understand God's ideas of righteousness and holiness. We also need to remember that the Lord will definitely fight against those who fight against Him and His. All love for God and His children originates only in our God-transformed hearts. True, we can act on it, but it didn't ever originate with us. I wish I could find some virtue in myself or Man in general, but my only virtue is that I frequently agree with God. 8-)

I have no problem with what you have said here. I am trying to balance, as per Scriptures, the notion of free will and God's free election. The Scriptures clearly point out both, and thus, we shouldn't ignore one because our feeble minds only allow one notion or the other. Rational thought will not solve this paradox. Thus, to those who have child-like faith, they will merely accept BOTH propositions in faith, rather than trying to explain the depth of God's standards... WE know our ways are not God's ways...

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales wrote:
"True, I have said the same when I have posted about God's mercy extending even to Muslims of good will..."

If God will extend mercy to Muslims or some other group of people who do not know Jesus as Lord and Savior, but nonetheless lived a life with some measure of "good will", and since all good acts originate with God, how can these groups be justified by this merit if it is not their own?

1Corinthians 4:7

7For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales wrote:
"True, I have said the same when I have posted about God's mercy extending even to Muslims of good will..."

If God will extend mercy to Muslims or some other group of people who do not know Jesus as Lord and Savior, but nonetheless lived a life with some measure of "good will", and since all good acts originate with God, how can these groups be justified by this merit if it is not their own?

Because any good will of merit that a Muslim may display is a work of the Holy Spirit. They are just not aware of the exact theology of WHO drives them to love others.

Are you now restricting God to whom He may give the gift to???

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales wrote:
"True, I have said the same when I have posted about God's mercy extending even to Muslims of good will..."

If God will extend mercy to Muslims or some other group of people who do not know Jesus as Lord and Savior, but nonetheless lived a life with some measure of "good will", and since all good acts originate with God, how can these groups be justified by this merit if it is not their own?

Because any good will of merit that a Muslim may display is a work of the Holy Spirit. They are just not aware of the exact theology of WHO drives them to love others.

Are you now restricting God to whom He may give the gift to???

Regards

Francisdesales,
No restrictions other then knowing Christ in this realm or the next, but always Christ not what one does. I am pleased that you agree that all good gifts are a product of the Holy Spirit, I am not so sure that your theology of no knowledge of Jesus death and resurrection is needed for those outside of Christian influences is correct. I would be happy if this was the case, but I believe Romans 2 is referring to the Gentiles having a knowledge of the law written on their hearts, thus an understanding of whats right or wrong. Thus, even though pagan or heathen, a understanding already exists that a civilization to be civil there must be boundaries govern by laws. This is why all people will stand in judgment, they are left without excuse, thankfully we who know Christ are covered by His blood.

Peace Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The first person to espouse the idea of "once saved, always saved" was John Calvin in the mid-sixteenth century. Even Martin Luther didn’t subscribe to the theory. Prior to Calvin, the unanimous consent of the early Christians was that a person is capable of losing his salvation by committing mortal sin, as John spoke about in 1 John 5:16–17.

In the first century, the Didache, commonly known as the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, said "Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time" (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).

In the second century, Irenaeus wrote, "To Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ [Phil. 2:10–11] to him, and that he should execute just judgment towards all. . . . The ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] into everlasting fire; but [he] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Such consistent testimony could be given from the dawn of Christianity until today, and no suggestion of "once saved, always saved" can be found on the lips of any Christian before Calvin

 

[francisdesales]

I am pleased that you agree that all good gifts are a product of the Holy Spirit, I am not so sure that your theology of no knowledge of Jesus death and resurrection is needed for those outside of Christian influences is correct. I would be happy if this was the case, but I believe Romans 2 is referring to the Gentiles having a knowledge of the law written on their hearts, thus an understanding of whats right or wrong.

Romans 2 doesn't talk about the Gentiles having KNOWLEDGE of this law's origin, merely that it exists as SEEN BY THEIR ACTIONS, which are obedience to a Law within. Clearly, these people can be spiritual Jews, those who seek God by faith.

Thus, even though pagan or heathen, a understanding already exists that a civilization to be civil there must be boundaries govern by laws. This is why all people will stand in judgment, they are left without excuse, thankfully we who know Christ are covered by His blood.

Laws of man are not always in compliance with God's Laws, such as abortion upon demand...

We will be judged, as well. And more will be expected of us, as we DO have knowledge of Christ.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

I am pleased that you agree that all good gifts are a product of the Holy Spirit, I am not so sure that your theology of no knowledge of Jesus death and resurrection is needed for those outside of Christian influences is correct. I would be happy if this was the case, but I believe Romans 2 is referring to the Gentiles having a knowledge of the law written on their hearts, thus an understanding of whats right or wrong.

Romans 2 doesn't talk about the Gentiles having KNOWLEDGE of this law's origin, merely that it exists as SEEN BY THEIR ACTIONS, which are obedience to a Law within. Clearly, these people can be spiritual Jews, those who seek God by faith.

Thus, even though pagan or heathen, a understanding already exists that a civilization to be civil there must be boundaries govern by laws. This is why all people will stand in judgment, they are left without excuse, thankfully we who know Christ are covered by His blood.

Laws of man are not always in compliance with God's Laws, such as abortion upon demand...

We will be judged, as well. And more will be expected of us, as we DO have knowledge of Christ.

Regards

Francisdesales,

The religious Jew may think he has the advantage over the Gentile, because they have been entrusted with God’s Law, but Paul is saying, having the Law and obeying the Law is two different issues. The Jews had the Law, but did not put their knowledge into action. No one can practice the Law, apart from divine influence, because all good gifts come from above (James 1:17). Romans chapter 2 is Paul building a case against both Jews and Gentiles that together they are condemned with the Law or without the written Law. A Gentile may think he is exonerated from condemnation through a consciousness of right and wrong, but even this ability is a gift to the rest of the world. Humankind is not as bad as they good be, because of a general grace that comes from God. One needs only to read into chapter 3 of Romans, to get the true nature of mankind. With or without the written Law, man will be condemned because they have sinned and are under the curse of the first Adam. Thankfully, through the second Adam all men will be eventually reconciled (Romans 5:18). Jesus is the answer for both groups.
Peace Bubba

ps, yes you are correct that some laws made by men are wrong, but all civilizations need to have some sort of moral code are they are not civilized. A look back at history substantiates this thought, when morality of a culture declines (i.e. Greece, Rome and America).

 

[francisdesales]

The religious Jew may think he has the advantage over the Gentile, because they have been entrusted with God’s Law, but Paul is saying, having the Law and obeying the Law is two different issues. The Jews had the Law, but did not put their knowledge into action. No one can practice the Law, apart from divine influence, because all good gifts come from above (James 1:17).

Yes, I agree..

Romans chapter 2 is Paul building a case against both Jews and Gentiles that together they are condemned with the Law or without the written Law.

No, I don't agree. Paul at the end of Romans 2 says that Gentiles can be spiritual Jews. What does that mean? They are spiritual sons of Abraham, whom the promise was given to. Paul is not making a case to damn everyone. He is saying that the Jews are not in any way better than the Gentiles who do not have the written Law. Paul makes it a point to say that some ARE justified by what they do - because the Law has been written in their hearts by the Spirit - and thus, their works can be embued with the Spirit.

A Gentile may think he is exonerated from condemnation through a consciousness of right and wrong, but even this ability is a gift to the rest of the world. Humankind is not as bad as they good be, because of a general grace that comes from God. One needs only to read into chapter 3 of Romans, to get the true nature of mankind. With or without the written Law, man will be condemned because they have sinned and are under the curse of the first Adam. Thankfully, through the second Adam all men will be eventually reconciled (Romans 5:18). Jesus is the answer for both groups.

Yes, that is true. But let's not limited Jesus to only Christians. God desires that men seek Him in Faith.

ps, yes you are correct that some laws made by men are wrong, but all civilizations need to have some sort of moral code are they are not civilized. A look back at history substantiates this thought, when morality of a culture declines (i.e. Greece, Rome and America).

That's no doubt. But man's morality is not an objective truth - it changes with the wind. Consider the Nazi German morality...

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Romans chapter 2 is Paul building a case against both Jews and Gentiles that together they are condemned with the Law or without the written Law.

No, I don't agree. Paul at the end of Romans 2 says that Gentiles can be spiritual Jews. What does that mean? They are spiritual sons of Abraham, whom the promise was given to. Paul is not making a case to damn everyone. He is saying that the Jews are not in any way better than the Gentiles who do not have the written Law. Paul makes it a point to say that some ARE justified by what they do - because the Law has been written in their hearts by the Spirit - and thus, their works can be embued with the Spirit.

Francisdesales,
This is from a commentary I read that maybe will help you see, that the Gentile (2:15) still would have to obey all commands of the conscience to gain salvation apart from Christ's atoning death. A circumcision of the heart for both groups is a divine act of God (Ezek. 36:22-28). The whole chapter of Romans 2 is that of judgment leading to the only answer for the human race in Romans 3.
Bubba

"(25-29) The irrelevance of circumcision.

For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.



a. For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law: Paul recognizes that a Jew may protest, and say that his salvation is based on the fact that he is a descendant of Abraham, proven by circumcision. Paul rightly answers that this is irrelevant in regard to justification.



i. The Jew believed that his circumcision guaranteed his salvation. He might be punished in the world to come, but could never be lost.



ii. In Paul’s day, some Rabbis taught that Abraham sat at the entrance of Hell and made certain that none of his circumcised descendants went there. Some Rabbis also taught “God will judge the Gentiles with one measure and the Jews with another†and “All Israelites will have part in the world to come.â€Â



iii. Circumcision (or baptism - or any ritual in itself) doesn’t save anyone. In the ancient world, Egyptians also circumcised their boys but it did not make them followers of the true God. Even in Abraham’s day, Ishmael, the son of the flesh, was circumcised, but it did not make him a son of the covenant.



iv. Circumcision and baptism do about the same thing that a label on a can does. If the outer label doesn’t match with what is on the inside, something is wrong! If there are carrots inside the can, you can put a label says “Peas†but it doesn’t change what is inside the can. Being born again changes what is inside the can, and then you can put the appropriate label on the outside.



v. Of course, this is not a new thought. The Law of Moses itself teaches this principle: Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer. (Deuteronomy 10:16)



b. Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law: If a Gentile were to keep the righteous requirement of the law (through his conscience, as Romans 2:15 shows) within his heart, would he not be justified, instead of the circumcised Jew who did not keep the law? The point is emphasized: having the law or having a ceremony isn’t enough. God requires righteousness.



i. Morris quoting Manson: “If they are loyal to the good they know, they will be acceptable to God; but it is a very big ‘if’.â€Â



c. And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? This is God’s answer to the one who says, “What about the Pygmy in Africa who has never heard the gospel?†God will judge that Pygmy by what he has heard, and how he has lived by it. Of course, this means that the Pygmy will be guilty before God, because no one has perfectly lived by their conscience, or perfectly responded to what we can know of God through creation.



i. The problem of the “innocent native†is that we can’t find an innocent native anywhere.



ii. “What about the Pygmy in Africa who hasn’t heard the gospel?†is a good question, but there are two far more important questions:



· What about you who hear the gospel, but reject it? What excuse is there for you?

· What about you, who are commanded to take the gospel to that Pygmy in Africa (Matthew 28:19), but refuse to do it?



d. Whose praise is not from men but from God: All the outward signs of religion may earn us praise from men, but they will not earn us praise from God. The evidence of our rightness with God is not contained in outward signs or works, and it is not assured because of our parentage; the evidence is found in the work of God in our hearts, which shows itself in fruit.



e. William Newell summarizes Romans 2 with “Seven Great Principles of God’s Judgment†that are worth noting:



· God’s judgment is according to truth (Romans 2:2)

· God’s judgment is according to accumulated guilt (Romans 2:5)

· God’s judgment is according to works (Romans 2:6)

· God’s judgment is without partiality (Romans 2:11)

· God’s judgment is according to performance, not knowledge (Romans 2:13)

· God’s judgment reaches the secrets of the heart (Romans 2:16)

· God’s judgment is according to reality, not religious profession (Romans 2:17-29)



© 2002 David Guzik