francisdesales
Member
- Aug 10, 2006
- 7,793
- 4
Bubba said:
What is your point?
Regards
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Can true Christians lose their salvation ?
- Thread starter jgredline
- Start date
What is your point?
Regards
C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
Bubba said:
They are true. It is your interpretation that is wrong.
Catholic Crusader said:
CC,
Yes, being a Calvinist for years, I understand that "all" does not really mean all, 'world" does not really mean the whole world, God really does not love all people (1John 4:8,10) just the elect or those who believe. I understand that interpretation is everything...yet, some of those verses seem pretty straight forward would you not say?
Bubba
C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
Bubba said:
Thats horrible. Calvinism makes God thre author of evil, predestinating people for damnation.
Vic C.
Member
- Mar 16, 2003
- 18,230
- 4
If we are trying to establish systematically, a doctrine using a list of out of context proof text, I'm sure the other side can do the same. It winds up being a stalemate...seen it, been there, done that in the numerous UR debates we have had here. :smt014
That is what usually becomes of this discussion. :-?
That is what usually becomes of this discussion. :-?
francisdesales
Member
- Aug 10, 2006
- 7,793
- 4
Bubba said:
That "all" doesn't mean "all"???
Bubba said:
Many have caveats, so they are not all true.
Regards
Vic,vic C. said:
The assumption is that the verses are out of context. Back in my day, I did a lot of “fancy foot work†to change words like “allâ€Â, “world†and etc to mean something else, because it didn’t fit my theology. It is unfortunate that the particulars can not be discussed openly due to pass excesses, but that sort of stuff kind of goes with a internet forum of this nature.
Bubba
A
Arphaxad
Guest
Hello Francis! 
In response to my statement about the repentant thief on the cross: That basic salvation is the one-time inner transformation of a spiritually dead, God-hating, self-glorifying, faithless, "natural man," into a spiritually new creature, alive unto God, you wrote: "And what about the other thief? Does not God desire all men to be saved? Or does God's salvation depend on man's response as well?
According to you, God does not desire all men to be saved - because we know that all men will not be saved - and God is responsible for everything... Thus, if man has no responsibility (or ability, you seem to say) to respond, then God says "I desire all men to be saved", and then turns around and says "all men will not be saved because I don't will it". This is a contradiction." (end quote).
My reply: It seems that you have somehow confused me with a Calvinist, or with one who has Calvinist leanings. I hasten to say that nothing could be farther from the truth. I have often written about what I call "The kiss of death to Calvinism." That being: That if "the Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all men should come to the knowledge of the truth, repent and be saved." And the Lord is in complete control so that "no man can resist His will." Then WHY doesn't the Lord use His supposed complete control over every man's will and destiny to bring all men to repentance? :o Is the Lord divided against Himself? Why doesn't He use His great irresistible sovereignty to fulfill His own clearly written will? Is He lazy?
With His great irresistible power to save, how could the Lord possibly allow anyone to perish against His own written will?
The only logical answer to this, is that Man's response is critical! As I wrote in a recent post: The Lord is a perfect "Gentleman," not an overbearing, ham-fisted tyrant. And being a perfect and gracious "host" to our existence here in His universe, he not only allows, but requires us to be responsible for the direction of our OWN lives and and eternal destiny.
Once bereft of the power to direct our own lives, we would not only become non-entities with our God-given gifts of individuality and responsibility gone, but we would also become mere "puppets" at the mercy of every circumstance. And Christ's great selfless sacrifice would become of no benefit to us who through supposed predestination have no opportunity to reject it.
In this scenario of having no opportunity to reject our salvation, I draw a comparison to the Lord placing the tree of the knowledge of good and evil within Adam's easy reach and then telling him not to eat of it, thus providing a choice by which Adam could hopefully affirm his trust in God on a daily basis through choosing not to eat of it. So the "bottom line" is that apparently the Lord places great importance on our choices.
By the way, like receiving God's free gift of salvation, Adam's errant choice to eat the forbidden fruit was a one-time permanent decision and sadly there was no way he could 'forfeit" it, even if he wanted to. Maybe we could start a topic entitled: "Can a true sinner ever forfeit their sinful nature?"
That's not to say that Man is not at least temporarily set free by the Holy Spirit from the Devil's influence to allow him to make a TRUE unencumbered FREE choice for the Lord. However, without the enlightening and drawing power of the Holy Spirit, no man would ever come to God. But in the final analysis, even though God "turns the lights on," the choice is Man's.
Grace then Peace,
"Arph"
--------------
In response to my statement about the repentant thief on the cross: That basic salvation is the one-time inner transformation of a spiritually dead, God-hating, self-glorifying, faithless, "natural man," into a spiritually new creature, alive unto God, you wrote: "And what about the other thief? Does not God desire all men to be saved? Or does God's salvation depend on man's response as well?
According to you, God does not desire all men to be saved - because we know that all men will not be saved - and God is responsible for everything... Thus, if man has no responsibility (or ability, you seem to say) to respond, then God says "I desire all men to be saved", and then turns around and says "all men will not be saved because I don't will it". This is a contradiction." (end quote).
My reply: It seems that you have somehow confused me with a Calvinist, or with one who has Calvinist leanings. I hasten to say that nothing could be farther from the truth. I have often written about what I call "The kiss of death to Calvinism." That being: That if "the Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all men should come to the knowledge of the truth, repent and be saved." And the Lord is in complete control so that "no man can resist His will." Then WHY doesn't the Lord use His supposed complete control over every man's will and destiny to bring all men to repentance? :o Is the Lord divided against Himself? Why doesn't He use His great irresistible sovereignty to fulfill His own clearly written will? Is He lazy?
With His great irresistible power to save, how could the Lord possibly allow anyone to perish against His own written will?
The only logical answer to this, is that Man's response is critical! As I wrote in a recent post: The Lord is a perfect "Gentleman," not an overbearing, ham-fisted tyrant. And being a perfect and gracious "host" to our existence here in His universe, he not only allows, but requires us to be responsible for the direction of our OWN lives and and eternal destiny.
Once bereft of the power to direct our own lives, we would not only become non-entities with our God-given gifts of individuality and responsibility gone, but we would also become mere "puppets" at the mercy of every circumstance. And Christ's great selfless sacrifice would become of no benefit to us who through supposed predestination have no opportunity to reject it.
In this scenario of having no opportunity to reject our salvation, I draw a comparison to the Lord placing the tree of the knowledge of good and evil within Adam's easy reach and then telling him not to eat of it, thus providing a choice by which Adam could hopefully affirm his trust in God on a daily basis through choosing not to eat of it. So the "bottom line" is that apparently the Lord places great importance on our choices.
By the way, like receiving God's free gift of salvation, Adam's errant choice to eat the forbidden fruit was a one-time permanent decision and sadly there was no way he could 'forfeit" it, even if he wanted to. Maybe we could start a topic entitled: "Can a true sinner ever forfeit their sinful nature?"
That's not to say that Man is not at least temporarily set free by the Holy Spirit from the Devil's influence to allow him to make a TRUE unencumbered FREE choice for the Lord. However, without the enlightening and drawing power of the Holy Spirit, no man would ever come to God. But in the final analysis, even though God "turns the lights on," the choice is Man's.
Grace then Peace,
"Arph"
--------------
C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
You forget: It was HIS will to create us with FREE WILL. He will accept your free will choice to turn from him. Its as simple as thatArphaxad said:
A
Alabaster
Guest
Catholic Crusader said:
Wow! So true...
C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
WHAT ?Alabaster said:
francisdesales
Member
- Aug 10, 2006
- 7,793
- 4
Arphaxad said:
That's good to hear that you have not fallen into that morass...
Arphaxad said:
Christianity is full of paradoxes. Some truths of our faith require that we just say "I believe" and not fully understand how God's graces and man's free will can cooperate. The Scriptures hold to both, so God intends for us to believe that, as well.
Regards
A
Arphaxad
Guest
Hi CC
You wrote: "You forget: It was HIS will to create us with FREE WILL. He will accept your free will choice to turn from him. Its as simple as that." (end quote).
My reply: Yes, Adam was created with TRUE free will, but in obeying the Prince of this World, he became a slave, no longer possessing free will.
So seeing that every person is born into this world as slaves to Satan (original sin), how can anyone ever come to God for salvation? Satan NEVER lets his prisoners go free! So where's the free will?
Pax Christi,
"Arph"
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You wrote: "You forget: It was HIS will to create us with FREE WILL. He will accept your free will choice to turn from him. Its as simple as that." (end quote).
My reply: Yes, Adam was created with TRUE free will, but in obeying the Prince of this World, he became a slave, no longer possessing free will.
So seeing that every person is born into this world as slaves to Satan (original sin), how can anyone ever come to God for salvation? Satan NEVER lets his prisoners go free! So where's the free will?
Pax Christi,
"Arph"
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C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
You are reading to much into the scripture. You cannot Biblically demonstrate that we don't have free will. To use you guys' phraseology, to "accept Jesus as your personal savior", the act of accepting Him is an act of your free will. If you have no free will, how can you either accept or not accept Him? And why even bother, if you are predestined anyway?Arphaxad said:
Every time the Bible asks us to make a choice is proof that we have the free will to even MAKE such a choice:
Deuteronomy 30:19
" I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants.."
The only way we can make such a choice is if we CAN make such a choice!!!
A
Arphaxad
Guest
Hey CC!
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Did you want to use your free will to go back under sin?? :o Why?????
Pax Christi,
"Arph"
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Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Did you want to use your free will to go back under sin?? :o Why?????
Pax Christi,
"Arph"
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C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
Me? No, I don't want to go back, but lots of dummies do it all the time. Why? Some just fall away -Others, maybe tradgedies strike and they blame God, all kinds of reasonsArphaxad said:Hey CC!
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Did you want to use your free will to go back under sin?? :o Why?????
Pax Christi,
"Arph"
-----------
A
Arphaxad
Guest
Hi CC!
How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?:
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Rom 6:2-7 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (past tense).
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
(underlines and color emphases are my own).
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Sinning is (morbidly) thinning,
"Arph"
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P.S. CC, I forgot to mention, I've been predestined not to believe in predestination. :D
How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?:
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Rom 6:2-7 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (past tense).
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
(underlines and color emphases are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sinning is (morbidly) thinning,
"Arph"
-------------------------------
P.S. CC, I forgot to mention, I've been predestined not to believe in predestination. :D
Catholic Crusader said:Me? No, I don't want to go back, but lots of dummies do it all the time. Why? Some just fall away -Others, maybe tradgedies strike and they blame God, all kinds of reasonsArphaxad said:Hey CC!
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Did you want to use your free will to go back under sin?? :o Why?????
Pax Christi,
"Arph"
-----------
Colossians 1:12-13, "giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you[d] to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption,[e] the forgiveness of sins."
CC,
It's a done deal. Bubba