Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Catholic Crusader]

It's a done deal. Bubba

Thats not what the Bible says. Some people promote a very attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior." The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible & constant Christian teaching.

Recall this Scripture: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12). So, if we do NOT persevere, we shall NOT reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven. Jesus tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). Ergo, if you do not endure to the end, well........

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]), but the Bible does NOT teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. The Bible says, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

Note that this includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." It is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12). , Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). In saying this he points out that even he cannot be infallibly sure of his own present state or of his future salvation.

As a Catholic, when someone asks me if I have been "saved," I answer: "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me."

 

[Bubba]

It's a done deal. Bubba

Thats not what the Bible says. Some people promote a very attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior." The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible & constant Christian teaching.

Recall this Scripture: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12). So, if we do NOT persevere, we shall NOT reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven. Jesus tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). Ergo, if you do not endure to the end, well........

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]), but the Bible does NOT teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. The Bible says, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

Note that this includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." It is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12). , Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). In saying this he points out that even he cannot be infallibly sure of his own present state or of his future salvation.

As a Catholic, when someone asks me if I have been "saved," I answer: "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me."

CC,
True believers will have fruit in their lives, as you quoted, it is God who is working in the individual (Phil.2:13, Eph. 2:10). Who is it who overcomes? Those who believe (1John 5:4-5).
Peace, Bubba

 

[Alabaster]

A true Christian's life reveals fruit, and he doesn't live just any way he pleases. He lives according to how it pleases God, obedient to the Word. There is no question as to a believer who is consecrated to the Lord Jesus Christ, that he has a home in heaven.

Jesus promises all His followers a place with Him that He is preparing, so that when we die, we shall forever be with Him. Now, THAT'S a promise!

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Who is it who overcomes? Those who believe (1John 5:4-5).
Peace, Bubba

And if the person stops believeing at some point?

 

[Alabaster]

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightenedâ€â€those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to comeâ€â€and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Gobbldey gook. First you say you can't lose it, then you present an unforgiving God. What kind of monkey business is that?

 

[Alabaster]

Gobbldey gook. First you say you can't lose it, then you present an unforgiving God. What kind of monkey business is that?

It just goes to show you how impossible it is for a TRUE believer to turn from God. Once convinced of Him, no one turns back,

 

[Catholic Crusader]

In that case, you cannot have any assurance of salvation, because no one will ever know if they are one of your "true believers".

Hoist on your own petard. You can't have it both ways.


(...not that that really matters, because you CAN lose your salvation)

 

[Alabaster]

In that case, you cannot have any assurance of salvation, because no one will ever know if they are one of your "true believers".

Hoist on your own petard. You can't have it both ways.


(...not that that really matters, because you CAN lose your salvation)

That is not right at all...

Everyone who follows after Jesus Christ has full assurance of his salvation! The point is---one must trust God and obey Him, walking with Him in relationship--not in pious observances.

Those who remain on the throne of their lives and compromise their faith with worldly pursuits and interests have not really regenerated but have give Jesus Christ mere lip service. He wants your life. He looks on your heart.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

In that case, you cannot have any assurance of salvation, because no one will ever know if they are one of your "true believers".

Hoist on your own petard. You can't have it both ways.
(...not that that really matters, because you CAN lose your salvation)

That is not right at all...

Everyone who follows after Jesus Christ has full assurance of his salvation! The point is---one must trust God and obey...

Obey? But thats a WORK. Now you have THREE contradictions. NOW you are saying your salvation is dependent on something you DO, because "obeying" is something you DO.

 

[Alabaster]

No one who knows God and walks with Him, experiencing the gifts He gives, can turn their back on Him---I know I will never abandon Jesus Christ because I have experienced His life in mine. He has healed me, and I have seen His hand working in others. Seeing the hand of God, and witnessing His power in a life is awesome!

Carnality is something we battle with in life and we have a warning from God about that. Complacency and carnality are pretty close to being deal breakers. A truly consecrated Christian is aware of this and remains careful of his daily walk with God.

 

[Alabaster]

[quote="Catholic Crusader":75f5a]In that case, you cannot have any assurance of salvation, because no one will ever know if they are one of your "true believers".

Hoist on your own petard. You can't have it both ways.
(...not that that really matters, because you CAN lose your salvation)

That is not right at all...

Everyone who follows after Jesus Christ has full assurance of his salvation! The point is---one must trust God and obey...

Obey? But thats a WORK. Now you have THREE contradictions. NOW you are saying your salvation is dependent on something you DO, because "obeying" is something you DO.

[/quote:75f5a]


Salvation is ours when we do something---believe!

We also have the responsibility as children of God then to become obedient children, or risk falling out of relationship with God. Prodigals tend to end up hanging with pigs, not in the favour of God. It is a falsehood to believe that there is nothing for us to do to maintain our salvation. God

Philippians 2:12 (Amplified)
Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now, not only [with the enthusiasm you would show] in my presence but much more because I am absent, work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ).

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Salvation is ours when we do something---believe!

Thats not what you said. You said OBEY, not believe

 

[Alabaster]

Salvation is ours when we do something---believe!

Thats not what you said. You said OBEY, not believe

I also said we have a responsibility as His own to obey God or face the consequences. Why do you think we can get away with disobedience?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Salvation is ours when we do something---believe!

Thats not what you said. You said OBEY, not believe

I also said we have a responsibility as His own to obey God or face the consequences. Why do you think we can get away with disobedience?

No I don't. I think wanton disobediance will cause you to lose your salvation.

 

[Arphaxad]

Hey Guys!

I think we need to blow away some very presumptuous interpretations here:

1. "reign with him" presumptuously interpreted as "being saved/inheriting Heaven." This interpretation is not only scripturally unsupported, but is scripturally contradicted.

2. "not to fall/fall away/be disqualified" also presumptuously interpreted as "losing the adoption of God as His own precious child."

3. "be cut off" also presumptuously interpreted as "losing salvation." Here's another completely contradictory verse from the same chapter:
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Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (underlines and color emphases are my own).
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What I'm saying based on 38 years of intense study of God's Word, is that the above oft-misinterpreted terms have other more feasible interpretations based on the context where they are used in other passages of scripture.

So, please let's interpret terms such as "fall away" by using ALL the contextual usages throughout scripture. Example: "fall away" could be exactly what the weak Galatians did under the evil influence of false teachers urging them to go back under the curse of trying to establish their own righteousness under the Law.

This "falling away" did NOT mean they had forfeited their adoption into God's family. It simply meant that they had forfeited the peace, Joy and rest guaranteed to those who trust COMPLETELY in the LORD to save them without trying to "get a handle" on their own salvation, fearfully thinking that having it in their own control is more secure.

Pax Christi,
"Arph"
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[Catholic Crusader]

Pax Christi,

Thats the only thing that made sense to me. LOL :-D

 

[Vic C.]

Pax Christi,

Thats the only thing that made sense to me. LOL :-D

Hey CC, are we having comprehension issues today? 8-)

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi CC!

If you liked: "Pax Christi," you might like this verse from the Latin Vulgate even more:
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1 John 3:9 omnis qui natus est ex Deo peccatum non facit quoniam semen ipsius in eo manet et non potest peccare quoniam ex Deo natus est

1 John 3:9 (English translation): Whosoever is born of God committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him. And he cannot sin (non potest peccare), because he is born of God. (underlines, parentheses and color emphases are my own).
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"Non potest peccare" correctly translates to: "is incapable of sin" or: "Has no power to sin." So the precise literal translation of 1 John 3:9 would read: "Whosoever is born of God committeth not sin: for his (God's) seed abideth in him. And he is incapable of sin because he is born of God." (underlines, parentheses and color emphases are my own).

Kingdom Days,
"Arph"
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[Alabaster]

1 John 3:1-10 NLT
1 See how very much our Father loves us, for he calls us his children, and that is what we are! But the people who belong to this world don’t recognize that we are God’s children because they don’t know him. 2 Dear friends, we are already God’s children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is. 3 And all who have this eager expectation will keep themselves pure, just as he is pure.

4 Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. 5 And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. 6 Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.

7 Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. 8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. 10 So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.