Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Rick W]

Here's how I see this and I don't mean to be rude or anything.

Search your heart. Be as honest as you can then try some more. Answer the question for yourself and don't worry about whether someone else has salvation or can lose what they have or gain what they don't. I can assure you (nobody in particular) another man's relationship with Christ will have no bearing what-so-ever on your personal salvation. Besides, if you're looking at someone else you're looking in the wrong direction anyway. Keep your eyes on Christ and not on your neighbor. What your neighbor is doing can't help you. What Christ already did can.

 

[destiny]

Destiny
So if a Christian is severly backslidden do you believe he has lost his salvation?
Never had it to begin with? or is a carnal christian who will / is saved but will recieve his rewards in heaven according to his works or is it another option.

I ask because I don't want to put words in your mouth and am trying to understand.

jg ....I have posted my beliefs a hundred times already, but heres one more short version.
According to scripture a once saved person can fall away. This is very clear to me when I read the word.
Justification comes with the new birth, not with the old man that we are to 'put away'.
Yes yes yes ...we all slip and sin but we don't give it place to become our lifestyle again as we used to do; grace covers our sins and empowers us to live a sinless life.
I do not believe an unrepentant backslidden person is saved. At what point they lost their salvation I dont know. Maybe it's when they completely reject Gods tugging convictions and harden their heart against Him.
There are christians who never seem to grow up, who don't know God at a deep level ...because of this maybe they are prone to carnality somewhat.
Maybe they lose their rewards because of this. But, even the chrisians I know who are immature seem to have an understanding that they can't live like a worldly heathen and still be 'justified' by God.

 

[Solo]

And I agree with you Destiny. A true christian is one who has received eternal life by being born of the Spirit of God.

And just as a natural child will always be the child of the parents that gave it life, so it is with those who are born of God. We can never be unborn.

However if we do not remain in faith, and instead walk away from the provision of Gods grace toward us, and regress into a righteousness not of faith (which is no righteousness) - as long as we remain this state, there is no repentance.

As scripture says ‘It is impossible for the those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God, and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.’

Then explain Jesus' letters to the seven churches in Revelation where they are definitely in sin, and they are commanded to repent. How are they able to repent if they follow your understanding of the scripture in Hebrews, "It is impossible for the those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God, and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."?

 

[Solo]

jg ....I have posted my beliefs a hundred times already, but heres one more short version.
According to scripture a once saved person can fall away. This is very clear to me when I read the word.
Justification comes with the new birth, not with the old man that we are to 'put away'.
Yes yes yes ...we all slip and sin but we don't give it place to become our lifestyle again as we used to do; grace covers our sins and empowers us to live a sinless life.
I do not believe an unrepentant backslidden person is saved. At what point they lost their salvation I dont know. Maybe it's when they completely reject Gods tugging convictions and harden their heart against Him.
There are christians who never seem to grow up, who don't know God at a deep level ...because of this maybe they are prone to carnality somewhat.
Maybe they lose their rewards because of this. But, even the chrisians I know who are immature seem to have an understanding that they can't live like a worldly heathen and still be 'justified' by God.

So you do not believe in the New Creature being created at the born again process? The old creature still exists and wars with the New creature according to Paul. Does the New creature sin, or does the Old creature sin? That is the understanding that most Christians have not come to understand yet.

 

[mutzrein]

Then explain Jesus' letters to the seven churches in Revelation where they are definitely in sin, and they are commanded to repent. How are they able to repent if they follow your understanding of the scripture in Hebrews, "It is impossible for the those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God, and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."?

The key to it Solo, is not that they have sinned and then repented. It is that they are crucifying (present tense) the son of God all over again.

It is that they remain in that state of self-righteousness and therefore it is impossible for them to be made righteous by faith. You see it is impossible to repent from something that you remain in. And as scripture says, “that which is without faith, is sin.â€Â

 

[Solo]

The key to it Solo, is not that they have sinned and then repented. It is that they are crucifying (present tense) the son of God all over again.

It is that they remain in that state of self-righteousness and therefore it is impossible for them to be made righteous by faith. You see it is impossible to repent from something that you remain in. And as scripture says, “that which is without faith, is sin.â€Â

Those who have repented and have been born again have already had the work of Jesus Christ imputed to them, and abide in him as they build upon the foundation of their faith. The flesh is not cleaned up, as it is still sold under sin, but the new creature now is born of God and does not sin. It is this facet of the Christian life that those who believe that one can be unborn from God's salvation, that is entirely misunderstood by those who have not received this truth from the Holy Spirit. Keep studying and praying. If you are born again, God will show you this truth. He showed the truth of His salvation to me many years ago when I believed that the OSAS was a poisoness doctrine.

Jesus Christ only needed to be crucified one time for all sins past, present, and future. Read Romans and 1 John; it may clear up the misunderstanding that you have concerning justification, sanctification, and glorification. Good luck, pardner.

 

[jgredline]

jg ....I have posted my beliefs a hundred times already, but heres one more short version.
According to scripture a once saved person can fall away. This is very clear to me when I read the word.
Justification comes with the new birth, not with the old man that we are to 'put away'.
Yes yes yes ...we all slip and sin but we don't give it place to become our lifestyle again as we used to do; grace covers our sins and empowers us to live a sinless life.
I do not believe an unrepentant backslidden person is saved. At what point they lost their salvation I dont know. Maybe it's when they completely reject Gods tugging convictions and harden their heart against Him.
There are christians who never seem to grow up, who don't know God at a deep level ...because of this maybe they are prone to carnality somewhat.
Maybe they lose their rewards because of this. But, even the chrisians I know who are immature seem to have an understanding that they can't live like a worldly heathen and still be 'justified' by God.

Destiny
Thanks for humoring me...The reason I ask is because I used to believe very much the same you do...Infact it was not until I did a real deep study that took me the better part of two years regarding the Cross that completely changed my mind. While I never called or used the terms OSAS, i would use the term ''Cheap Gracers''....or ''cheap Grace''..After my study of the Cross that took me not only through the Gospels, but through Pauls letters and Hebrews, that I realized by using phrazes like ''Cheap Gracers''....or ''cheap Grace'' that ''I'' was cheapening what God did on the cross...I realized that Grace was anything but cheap. It Caused God to take a beating and placed on that tree for some to laugh at. I realized that after what God went through in seeing his perfect Son whom he is well pleased with; nailed on that Cross, that there was ''Nothing'' that I could do to merit Gods favor. That for me to say or believe that I could loose a gift that I did not deserve in the first place was disrespectful to what Jesus went through on the cross for me....Destiny. I write not to change your mind for that is something only the Holy Spirit can do. Anyway, i fealt I had to say this....Believing in the way you do is not a salvation issue as we will both be in heaven one day, but there is alot of freedom in living that you are eternally secure and that there is nothing that can take that from you....A child of God will not hibitually keep sinning...Study 1 John 1 and quite frankly, I know people who ''think''
they are saved, but are in adultereous affairs and because if this they are sinning 24 hours a day....According to first John chapter 1 these folks are not saved...These folks have never shown ''any'' fruit inspight of the fact that they attend church everyweekand have been baptized in water.....Are they backslidden? No. These folks have never been trully saved....Had they been they would have repented from their adultery....

Now as far as backslidders go, I can speak for myself when I say that I was backsliden for many years....Did I loose my Salvation while I was backslidden? I really thought I did for a while. Looking back on those days I was misserable. I lived a life that was without joy....Had I died then, I ''NOW'' have no dought that I would be in heaven right now....For I know that when I was twelve years old, God justified me then; as he used his signet ring and put his stamp of the Holy Spirit in me...All praise be to God....

What I am saying is to simply consider the cross.

and while they will live a misserable life they would be saved...

 

[Oscar3]

I do not believe an unrepentant backslidden person is saved. At what point they lost their salvation I dont know. Maybe it's when they completely reject Gods tugging convictions and harden their heart against Him.

I would not have guessed that you tooo believe in works as a part of salvation. By this statement it is exactly what you are saying. If this is indeed what you are saying and it apears that you are saying this, then it apears to me that perhaps you need to question yur own salvation.
Think about it. It seems to me that by what you are saying is that if this backslidden person worked harder then he would be saved. :-? weird, but ok

 

[destiny]

I would not have guessed that you tooo believe in works as a part of salvation. By this statement it is exactly what you are saying. If this is indeed what you are saying and it apears that you are saying this, then it apears to me that perhaps you need to question yur own salvation.
Think about it. It seems to me that by what you are saying is that if this backslidden person worked harder then he would be saved. :-? weird, but ok

:o

 

[Free]

I am with Destiny on this one. It is not a matter of works salvation, it's about salvation that works. To say that one is "backslidden" yet a Christian is an oxymoron:

1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
1Jo 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

To call someone a "backslider" implies that they are living like the world, living a sinful life. But as the passage from John shows, anyone who continues in sin does not "see him or know him". Either we are for Christ or we are not.

Throughout this thread those who promote OSAS have continued to ignore the NT's many warnings against sin and warnings by Paul to "stand firm", etc. What would the point of all the warnings be if OS we were AS?

The very reality of sin is that it separates us from God. Most of you have probably used that statement in witnessing to someone or have seen the tracts. So how does this suddenly become untrue when we accept Christ? To claim such is to, again, ignore the many warnings in the NT. Someone who is truely a Christian (still hasn't been defined that I have seen) can sin, and this separates us from God. It typically starts with "little" sins - "white" lies and such. If there fails to be any repentance, sin continues to separate us from God where it can get to the point of rejecting God.

The problem is that as we separate ourselves from God we become separated from his grace. He loves us all the same but we are allowing sin to come between us and him. His grace is our to freely accept, it is also ours to freely reject. This is one of the reasons for spiritual disciplines taught by the desert fathers and mothers. Praying, reading Scripture, and meditating on God, for instance, open one up to the grace of God whereby he grants us strength to overcome temptation.

I think that the typical Evangelical position allows one to put as little effort as one wants into a relationship with God and still be saved. It is interesting that the NT compares the Church with being the bride of Christ. If one were to then add the analogy of "Once Married Always Married", one would see just how quickly the marriage would come to an end. I'll let you all draw the rest of the conclusions that can be drawn from that.

To say that we are saved by grace and not works is absolutely correct. But to say that our relationship with God can be maintained with little or no effort on our part is wrong.

And of course, no one has yet stated at just what point is one saved and what saves them. By that I mean: how would you know if your friend became a Christian? According to most here it happens at a point, so it should be an easy answer.

 

[destiny]

Thanks Free....I have certainly gained a new perspective as to why sin has increased in the world.
When christians have a distorted view of what grace and salvation truly are, what can we expect the world to look like?
This topic has been an eye opener for me.

 

[Solo]

Thanks Free....I have certainly gained a new perspective as to why sin has increased in the world.
When christians have a distorted view of what grace and salvation truly are, what can we expect the world to look like?
This topic has been an eye opener for me.

The gift of salvation through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast, is given to those that repent and believe, and are born of God, born again. The flesh is still unclean, corrupt, and mortal. The flesh is sold under sin according to Paul in Romans 7, verse 14. Also notice that Paul continues to sin because of the sin that dwells in his flesh according to verse 17. Paul recognizes that within his flesh dwells no good thing (verse 18). He also recognizes that to will to do good is present within him, but he does not find how to perform that which is good. The good that he would will to do, he does not do, but the evil that he knows not to do, he does. He repeats that it is not he that does this evil, but the sin that dwells within him (verse 18-20). Notice that Paul writes about the "Inward Man" in verse 22 that describes the delight that he has "in the law of God after the inward man". He continues that when he does good, evil is present with him (verse 21). In verse 23 Paul sees another law in his members that wars with the law of his mind, and brings him into captivity to the law of sin which is in his members. He cries out in verse 24, "O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" His answer and our answer is in verse 25, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." Jesus Christ has given us His blood sacrifice so that the debt of sin is paid for completely, and that believers can be eternally secure in Him. Believers are saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, even though we serve the law of God with the mind, and the law of sin with the flesh.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25

Paul expounds that God's grace is sufficient for all sin. He writes that the gift of God by grace abounds unto many, and that as it was by one that sinned, much more the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.
In verse 17 Paul teaches that if by one man's offence, death reigned; much more is the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness through the one Jesus Christ come upon all men of the justification of life. That justification is not what man has done to earn righteousness to be saved, but that justification is what Jesus Christ has done so that righteousness is imputed upon those that have repented, and believed in Jesus Christ and His resurrection, thus being born from above, born again. Notice in verse 19 that many were made sinners by one man's disobedience, by the obedience of one many will be made righteous. Let me say that one more time. By the obedience of ONE, JESUS CHRIST will many be made righteous, not by the obedience of those who want to live in heaven. Read Romans 5:20-21 below where Paul exhorts that where sin abounds, grace abounds even more; and that as sin has reigned unto death, even so grace will reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

So since grace abounds more than the ability of sin to reign in a believers life, should we continue in sin? GOD FORBID, NO. Read Romans 6:1-6 below.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:15-21

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Romans 6:1-6

According to the scriptures above, if a believer continues to sin, what is the portion of the believer that sins, the flesh or the inward man?

Is the inward man going to sin? Not according to 1 John 3:8-9.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:8-9

When will the flesh be cleansed from all sin? At the day of redemption when Jesus returns; at the first resurrection. The corrupt will put on incorruption, and the mortal will put on immortality. All this will be done in the twinkling of an eye.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:51-57

Look into the meaning of the word translated "earnest" in Ephesians 1:14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:3-14

19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. 20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. 23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. 24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand. 2 Corinthians 1:19-24

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:1-10

Believers will be judged on how they build their house on the foundation of Jesus Christ, but they are not condemned as are unbelievers. Believers are sealed with the earnest payment of the Holy Spirit, and will be redeemed at the return of the Saviour Jesus Christ. Absolutely no doubt in my mind!

 

[francisdesales]

Believers will be judged on how they build their house on the foundation of Jesus Christ, but they are not condemned as are unbelievers. Believers are sealed with the earnest payment of the Holy Spirit, and will be redeemed at the return of the Saviour Jesus Christ. Absolutely no doubt in my mind!

It all depends on how you define "Believers", Solo. The idea of "true believers" is quite subjective. That is why we are to maintain a humble attitude when discussing our salvation (into heaven). Paul writes to Christians (whom I suppose are believers) and warns them, the Galatians (ch 5) and the Corinthians (ch 6, first letter) and the Hebrews (ch 11) and warns them that those who CONTINUE to sin are in danger of throwing away their inheritance. Paul addresses the Corinthians and tells them that those who continue in disunity are following the flesh. SAVED CHRISTIANS! Apparently, even THESE Christians had received the seal of the Spirit, but continued to grieve the Holy Spirit. God does NOT remove our free will when He comes to us, Solo. We can willingly throw away the salvation freely offered to us.

Experience clearly tells us that some Christians fall away. By saying "they never were believers in the first place" clearly threatens our own proclamation that WE are believers, since we can never know what we will do in the future.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Are you doing the semantics dance again, Solo? The flesh continues to lust after sinful, greedy pleasures and if we live after the flesh, that is to allow the flesh to control the way we live; doing greedy, hateful, unholy things, we will die. If we live according to the Spirit’s leading to love and good works, we will live. If you don’t have the love of God in you, you’re dead meat.

:robot:

Once again you have failed to understand the scripture that was posted in my post, and you have failed to understand the inward man that Paul was writing about. Perhaps you should prayerfully consider the scriptures that I posted in order to achieve a right understanding so that mocking believers is not your reputation; The love of God evades you during this type of action that you frequently function within.

I will ask you the question again, expecting an intelligent answer:

• According to the scriptures above, if a believer continues to sin, what is the portion of the believer that sins, the flesh or the inward man?

 

[Solo]

It all depends on how you define "Believers", Solo. The idea of "true believers" is quite subjective. That is why we are to maintain a humble attitude when discussing our salvation (into heaven). Paul writes to Christians (whom I suppose are believers) and warns them, the Galatians (ch 5) and the Corinthians (ch 6, first letter) and the Hebrews (ch 11) and warns them that those who CONTINUE to sin are in danger of throwing away their inheritance. Paul addresses the Corinthians and tells them that those who continue in disunity are following the flesh. SAVED CHRISTIANS! Apparently, even THESE Christians had received the seal of the Spirit, but continued to grieve the Holy Spirit. God does NOT remove our free will when He comes to us, Solo. We can willingly throw away the salvation freely offered to us.

Experience clearly tells us that some Christians fall away. By saying "they never were believers in the first place" clearly threatens our own proclamation that WE are believers, since we can never know what we will do in the future.

Regards

Salvation is not a human invention. It is a profound function of God Himself. When God delivers one from his sin through the blood of Jesus Christ, it is through the born again, born of God, born from above process that Jesus taught in John 3. This born again process delivers a lost soul into eternal life provided by God Himself. God saves one from condemnation through the blood of Jesus Christ, with the hope of His resurrection, and sealed by the Holy Spirit as earnest of the full redemption complete at the return of Jesus Christ. If one has been born of God, he/she is no longer a servant of sin, but is instead a joint heir of Jesus Christ, sitting with him in the heavenlies awaiting the redemption of the body at His coming.

Believers can walk in the flesh and continue in sin, but as the scripture shows in Romans 5, the grace of God abounds more than the sin. Should we continue in sin? God forbid, but if we do, God's grace is sufficient. The flesh is sold under sin, but the inward man that is born of God does not sin. Read Romans 7 and 8, and 1 John 3:8-9.

Believers are not condemned and are given eternal life in Jesus Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit. Please speak to the meaning of the following verse of scripture:

• 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

 

[golfjack]

reply

Very good post Solo. Let me put it another way: When Paul mentions sin, I believe this refers to a sin nature, which is the result of the fall. Jesus Christ came to take that sin nature and nail it to the cross, and as a result, this sin nature is no more, and this provides us the forgiveness of all sins. When we do commit sins, it must start in our thoughts by the enemy tempting us, and then we do an act of sin in the flesh. This is why Paul says to renew our minds with the Word, and make our bodies a living sacrify. Therefore, our recreated spirits are perfect, but the problem is the soul, and flesh, and this is why we need to workout our own salvation with fear and trembling, and always remember that God is there to help us. He that is in us, is greater than he that is in the world. This is why we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[Solo]

A true Christian is one who follows EVERYTHING Jesus said & did !

You do not follow EVERYTHING that Jesus said & did, so by your words you must not be a true Christian.

You think the, "Sermon on the Mount" (Matthew Chapter 5) was for nothing ?!?

No, it was for people to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. Please do not twist it into a false teaching.

In the sermon on the mount, Jesus said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:19-20).

What commandments are Jesus speaking of? Let us continue to look at the scripture.

In verse 21 Jesus continues, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift" (Matthew 5:21-24).

Now the commandment of Thou shalt not Kill has been expanded to include that those who are angry with his brother without a cause will also be in danger of the judgment.

Jesus continues in verse 27 to teach about keeping the commandments with the following statement, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell" (Matthew 5:27-30).

Now adultery includes a deeper meaning in that if one so much as looks at a woman lusting after her, commits adultery with her in his heart. If this occurs, Jesus commands one to pluck out the right eye if it offends one, and to cut off one's right hand if it offends one, so that the body does not get cast into hell. Is Jesus being literal with this statement? Why haven't I seen any one-eyed, one-handed Seventh-day Adventists if TRUE CHRISTIANS follow EVERYTHING that Jesus said and did?

Jesus also says that anyone who divorces his wife without the cause of fornication causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries her commits adultery. Is this sin going to send the born again Christian to hell?

Jesus continued to speak of adultery, "It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery" (Matthew 5:31-32)

Anyone that swears an oath by words other than yes and no are not following Jesus' teachings. Jesus says the following concerning swearing, "Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil" (Matthew 5:33-37).

Jesus also teaches concerning the Old Testament teaching of "an eye for an eye", and how the commandments have taken on a deeper meaning for today, as opposed to the Old Covenant period of time. Has anyone ever asked you for something and you turned them down? Here is his teaching concerning this subject, "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away" (Matthew 5:38-42).

Jesus speaks of loving your neighbor. He also teaches that one ought to be perfect as God the Father is perfect in also loving one's enemy. God provides for unjust as he does for the just. Have you always found it in your heart to love your enemies?

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:43-48).

Jesus continues to teach with the sermon on the mount through Matthew 7, and no where does he mention the Sabbath day and keeping it holy. I suspect that he would have given us a deeper understanding concerning the Sabbath day had he mentioned it as being a rest to be entered into all seven days of the week. Hebrews is pretty clear on what the Sabbath day signifies.

REMEMBER.......we are saved by the life Christ lived, more than from His death upon the cross......

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Christ's death, on the cross, was to allow us to gain pardon from our sins, bypassing the penalty of death.....THAT'S ALL !
Christ's death on the cross.....IS NOT.....the be-all, end-all of the Gospel message.

The Gospel message involves LIVING a Christian lifestyle......that is what determnes whether we get into heaven or not !

I would agree that the Gospel of Jesus teaches us to crucify the flesh so as to not walk in sin, and to walk by the Spirit in order to follow God's will in our lives. I disagree with your supposition that the death of Jesus Christ is as powerless as you designate with your posting. The cross is the power of God, but foolishness to those that perish.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 1:17-31

A "TRUE CHRISTIAN" is an individual who has been born again, born from above, born of God. Nothing more, and nothing less.

 

[Solo]

Re: reply

Very good post Solo. Let me put it another way: When Paul mentions sin, I believe this refers to a sin nature, which is the result of the fall. Jesus Christ came to take that sin nature and nail it to the cross, and as a result, this sin nature is no more, and this provides us the forgiveness of all sins. When we do commit sins, it must start in our thoughts by the enemy tempting us, and then we do an act of sin in the flesh. This is why Paul says to renew our minds with the Word, and make our bodies a living sacrify. Therefore, our recreated spirits are perfect, but the problem is the soul, and flesh, and this is why we need to workout our own salvation with fear and trembling, and always remember that God is there to help us. He that is in us, is greater than he that is in the world. This is why we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.


May God bless, golfjack

Thanks golfjack,
Here is a commentary from John Gill that expounds on the scripture that you alluded to,

• 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

Philippians 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved…
This is an inference from the instance and example of Christ; that since he, who was God over all, blessed for ever, made himself so low in human nature, in which he is now so highly exalted, having done the work and business he came about with such condescension, humility, and meekness; therefore it becomes those who profess to be his followers, to do all their affairs as men and Christians, with, and among one another, in all lowliness of mind. The apostle calls the saints here, "my beloved", he having a strong affection for them, which he frequently expresses in this epistle; and he chooses to make use of such an endearing appellation, that it might be observed, that what he was about to say to them sprung from pure love to them, and a hearty desire for their welfare, and from no other end, and with no other view; and to encourage them to go on in a course of humble duty, he commends them for their former obedience,

as ye have always obeyed;
not "me", as the Arabic and Ethiopic versions supply; but either God, acting according to his revealed will, they had knowledge of; or Christ, by receiving him as prophet, priest, and King, by submitting to his righteousness, and the sceptre of his grace; or the Gospel, by embracing the truths of it, professing them, and abiding in them, and by subjecting to the ordinances of it, and doing all things whatsoever Christ has commanded: and this they did "always"; they were always abounding in the works of the Lord, doing his will; they abode by Christ, and continued steadfastly in his doctrines, and kept the ordinances as they were delivered to them, and walked in all the commandments of the Lord blameless.

Not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence;
which clause may either be referred to the foregoing, which expresses their obedience; and so signifies that that was carefully and cheerfully performed, not only while the apostle was with them, but now when he was absent from them, and much more when absent than present:, which shows, that they were not eye servants, and menpleasers, but what they did they did sincerely and heartily, as to the Lord: or to the following exhortation, that they would attend to it; not only as they had done when he was among them, of which he was witness, but that they would much more do so now he was absent from them, namely,

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
which is to be understood not in such a sense as though men could obtain and procure for themselves spiritual and eternal salvation by their own works and doings; for such a sense is contrary to the Scriptures, which deny any part of salvation, as election, justification, and calling, and the whole of it to be of works, but ascribe it to the free grace of God; and is also repugnant to the perfections of God, as his wisdom, grace, and righteousness; for where are the wisdom and love of God, in forming a scheme of salvation, and sending his Son to effect it, and after all it is left to men to work it out for themselves? and where is the justice of God in admitting of an imperfect righteousness in the room of a perfect one, which must be the case, if salvation is obtained by men's works? for these are imperfect, even the best of them; and is another reason against this sense of the passage; and were they perfect, they could not be meritorious of salvation, for the requisites of merits are wanting in them. Moreover, was salvation to be obtained by the works of men, these consequences would follow; the death of Christ would be in vain, boasting would be encouraged in men, they would have whereof to glory, and their obligations to obedience taken from the love of God, and redemption by Christ, would be weakened and destroyed: add to all this, that the Scriptures assure us, that salvation is alone by Christ; and that it is already finished by him, and not to be wrought out now by him, or any other; and that such is the weakness and impotence of men, even of believers, to whom this exhortation is directed, that it is impossible for them ever to affect it; therefore, whatever sense these words have, we may be sure that this can never possibly be the sense of them. The words may be rendered, "work about your salvation"; employ yourselves in things which accompany salvation, and to be performed by all those that expect it, though not to be expected for the performance of them; such as hearing of the word, submission to Gospel ordinances, and a discharge of every branch of moral, spiritual, and evangelical obedience for which the apostle before commends them, and now exhorts them to continue in; to go on in a course of cheerful obedience to the close of their days, believing in Christ, obeying his Gospel, attending constantly to his word and ordinances, and discharging every duty in faith and fear, until at last they should receive the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls: agreeably the Syriac version renders the words, (Nwkyyxd anxlwp wxwlp) , "do the work", or "business of your lives"; the work you are to do in your generation, which God has prescribed and directed you to, which the grace of God teaches, and the love of Christ constrains to. Do all that "with fear and trembling"; not with a slavish fear of hell and damnation, or lest they should fall away, or finally miscarry of heaven and happiness; since this would be a distrust of the power and faithfulness of God, and so criminal in them; nor is it reasonable to suppose, that the apostle would exhort to such a fear, when he himself was so confidently assured, that the good work begun in them would be performed; and besides, the exhortation would be very oddly formed, if this was the sense, "work out your salvation with fear" of damnation: but this fear and trembling spoken of, is such as is consistent with the highest acts of faith, trust, confidence, and joy, and is opposed to pride and vain glory; see (Psalms 2:11) (Psalms 115:11) (Romans 11:20) ; and intends modesty and humility, which is what the apostle is pressing for throughout the whole context; and here urges to a cheerful and constant obedience to Christ, with all humility of soul, without dependence on it, or vain glorying in it, but ascribing it wholly to the grace of God, for the following reason.

Philippians 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you…
Which is both an encouragement to persons conscious of their own weakness to work, as before exhorted to; see (Haggai 2:4) ; and a reason and argument for humility and meekness, and against pride and vain glory, since all we have, and do, is from God; and also points out the spring, principle, and foundation of all good works; namely, the grace of God wrought in the heart, which is an internal work, and purely the work of God: by this men become the workmanship of God, created unto good works, (Ephesians 2:10) , and are new men, and fitted for the performance of acts of righteousness, and true holiness; and this grace, which God works in them, is wrought in a powerful and efficacious manner, so as not to be frustrated and made void. The word here used signifies an inward, powerful, and efficacious operation; and the "king's manuscript", mentioned by Grotius and Hammond, adds another word to it, which makes the sense still stronger, reading it thus, "which worketh in you", (dunamei) , "by power"; not by moral persuasion, but by his own power, the power of his efficacious grace. The Alexandrian copy reads, (dunameiv) , "powers", or "mighty works": God works in his people

both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure;
God works in converted men a will to that which is spiritually good; which is to be understood, not of the formation of the natural faculty of the will; or of the preservation of it, and its natural liberty; or of the general motion of it to natural objects; nor of his influence on it in a providential way; but of the making of it good, and causing a willingness in it to that which is spiritually good. Men have no will naturally to come to Christ, or to have him to reign over them; they have no desire, nor hungerings and thirstings after his righteousness and salvation; wherever there are any such inclinations and desires, they are wrought in men by God; who works upon the stubborn and inflexible will, and, without any force to it, makes the soul willing to be saved by Christ, and submit to his righteousness, and do his will; he sweetly and powerfully draws it with the cords of love to himself, and to his Son, and so influences it by his grace and spirit, and which he continues, that it freely wills everything spiritually good, and for the glory of God: and he works in them also to "do"; for there is sometimes in believers a will, when there wants a power of doing. God therefore both implants in them principles of action to work from, as faith and love, and a regard for his glory, and gives them grace and strength to work with, without which they can do nothing, but having these, can do all things: and all this is "of [his] good pleasure"; the word "his" not being in the original text, some have taken the liberty to ascribe this to the will of man; and so the Syriac version renders it, "both to will and to do that", (Nwtna Nybud) , "which ye will", or according to your good will; but such a sense is both bad and senseless; for if they have a good will of themselves, what occasion is there for God to work one in them? no; these internal operations of divine power and grace are not owing to the will of men, nor to any merits of theirs, or are what God is obliged to do, but what flow from his sovereign will and pleasure; who works when, where, and as he pleases, and that for his own glory; and who continues to do so in the hearts of his people; otherwise, notwithstanding the work of grace in them, they would find very little inclination to, and few and faint desires after spiritual things; and less strength to do what is spiritually good; but God of his good pleasure goes on working what is well pleasing in his sight.

 

[francisdesales]

Salvation is not a human invention. It is a profound function of God Himself. When God delivers one from his sin through the blood of Jesus Christ, it is through the born again, born of God, born from above process that Jesus taught in John 3. This born again process delivers a lost soul into eternal life provided by God Himself. God saves one from condemnation through the blood of Jesus Christ, with the hope of His resurrection, and sealed by the Holy Spirit as earnest of the full redemption complete at the return of Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

If one has been born of God, he/she is no longer a servant of sin, but is instead a joint heir of Jesus Christ, sitting with him in the heavenlies awaiting the redemption of the body at His coming.

Now, here, I believe Paul is speaking theoretically. "We SHOULD not be sinning because we are born from God", etc... But Paul HIMSELF tells us that he sometimes is led astray, he sometimes sin, as in Romans 7. 1 John 1 also tells us Christians that those who say they don't sin are liars. WE have someone who CONTINUES to intercede for us, Jesus Christ. Our future sins are not forgiven until we ASK God to forgive them. Thus, a person who is a Christian today can fall away next year because he refuses to ask God for forgiveness, even though God has offered to forgive them with no charge.

Believers can walk in the flesh and continue in sin, but as the scripture shows in Romans 5, the grace of God abounds more than the sin. Should we continue in sin? God forbid, but if we do, God's grace is sufficient. The flesh is sold under sin, but the inward man that is born of God does not sin. Read Romans 7 and 8, and 1 John 3:8-9.

Of course grace abounds over sin. But that doesn't mean we CANNOT fall into sin. Our free will is never prevented from such a thing as long as we continue this journey. We are given the assurance that no matter how bad we sin, we can turn to God in repentance and ask the Lord to grant us forgiveness. The "inward" man and the "outward" man are just two motivations that man has within them. We are not two separate ontological beings... When we sin, we are following our earthly, fleshy desires. When we refuse to sin, we are following the spiritual man that was born from on high.

Believers are not condemned and are given eternal life in Jesus Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit. Please speak to the meaning of the following verse of scripture:

• 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

Explain to me who Paul was speaking to in Galatians 5 or 1 Cor 6 or 1 Cor 10 or Heb 3, 4, 11? No, brother, we cannot LOSE our salvation, but we can THROW IT AWAY. By doing the things that Paul lists, we throw away our free gift, our inheritance awaiting us that requires NO WORK to obtain.

Regards

 

[Solo]

Once you are justified by the blood of Jesus Christ, there is no throwing it away. The new creature is here to stay, and will be forever eternal alive with Christ Jesus. The flesh of such a one will also be redeemed when Jesus returns. This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15.

No where in the scriptures can one find where a believer is cast into hell, and no where in the scripture can one find where a born again believer is cast into hell, and no where in the scriptures can one find where the New Creature sins.