Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[mutzrein]

Those who have repented and have been born again have already had the work of Jesus Christ imputed to them, and abide in him as they build upon the foundation of their faith. The flesh is not cleaned up, as it is still sold under sin, but the new creature now is born of God and does not sin. It is this facet of the Christian life that those who believe that one can be unborn from God's salvation, that is entirely misunderstood by those who have not received this truth from the Holy Spirit. Keep studying and praying. If you are born again, God will show you this truth. He showed the truth of His salvation to me many years ago when I believed that the OSAS was a poisoness doctrine.

Jesus Christ only needed to be crucified one time for all sins past, present, and future. Read Romans and 1 John; it may clear up the misunderstanding that you have concerning justification, sanctification, and glorification. Good luck, pardner.

Sounds to me like you are saying that those who are born again are schizophrenic. They have two people living inside them. An old creature (which is fleshly) and an new creature (which is spiritual).

I have never upheld the possibility of being 'unborn' but nevertheless I must say our understandings on this are still vastly different. We seem to be on different planets. So keep on believing I'm not born again and I'll keep on walking in the light of the what God has revealed to me since being born of His spirit.

 

[Solo]

Sounds to me like you are saying that those who are born again are schizophrenic. They have two people living inside them. An old creature (which is fleshly) and an new creature (which is spiritual).

I have never upheld the possibility of being 'unborn' but nevertheless I must say our understandings on this are still vastly different. We seem to be on different planets. So keep on believing I'm not born again and I'll keep on walking in the light of the what God has revealed to me since being born of His spirit.

Your lack of understanding the scripture is leading me to believe that you do not have the Holy Spirit given when one is born again; but hey, that may just be spiritual immaturity also. Read this scripture if you haven't already so that you may understand the difference between the Spirit and the Flesh. Those that are born again, have the old man (the carnal flesh), and the new man (the born of God inward man). Once you are born again, you will recognize the war that Paul speaks of.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25

 

[francisdesales]

Once you are justified by the blood of Jesus Christ, there is no throwing it away. The new creature is here to stay, and will be forever eternal alive with Christ Jesus. The flesh of such a one will also be redeemed when Jesus returns. This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15.

No where in the scriptures can one find where a believer is cast into hell, and no where in the scripture can one find where a born again believer is cast into hell, and no where in the scriptures can one find where the New Creature sins.

Solo,

Well, here is the trick. Just because you are a "believer" today doesn't make you one next year. Certainly, a "believer" at the time of death will not be cast into hell. But it doesn't follow that you will remain a believer, EVEN if you already ARE one. Christ Himself said that not everyone who said "Lord, Lord" would enter into heaven. That includes those who ate with Him and did great works in His name. Paul goes on to say that some people who are BROTHERS are not to be associated with - this presumes that they MAY not choose to return to the Church. And Hebrews 11 is pretty clear that a person can CHOOSE to sin again and will be as if Christ's blood had NOT washed that person clean...

How do you KNOW you are a "believer"? Not by merely saying it. We know Christ abides in us when we are obeying the commandments. THAT is the indication that Christ is within us. This means, of course, that Christ will NOT justify us if we choose to sin and ignore His love for us.

Regards

 

[mutzrein]

Your lack of understanding the scripture is leading me to believe that you do not have the Holy Spirit given when one is born again; but hey, that may just be spiritual immaturity also. Read this scripture if you haven't already so that you may understand the difference between the Spirit and the Flesh. Those that are born again, have the old man (the carnal flesh), and the new man (the born of God inward man). Once you are born again, you will recognize the war that Paul speaks of.

Solo. Those who are born of the Spirit ARE a new creation. We are born of the Spirit and as such we have been redeemed from the law of sin and death. We don’t ‘sin’ because we are no longer IN sin and therefore we are no longer subject to the curse of ‘death’. We are alive in Christ.

But since we, as all of mankind, are born of the flesh (and while we remain in these temples of flesh until that glorious day of the Lord) we will not be able to escape the flesh. Yes there is a war going on between the Spirit and the flesh. But this is not to say that we need to be subject to the flesh. We die to it. And how is this achieved? By walking in the spirit. And it is this concept I believed that is sadly lacking in our churches.

As scripture says, “And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligationâ€â€but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirsâ€â€heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

And I say AMEN!

 

[Solo]

Solo. Those who are born of the Spirit ARE a new creation. We are born of the Spirit and as such we have been redeemed from the law of sin and death. We don’t ‘sin’ because we are no longer IN sin and therefore we are no longer subject to the curse of ‘death’. We are alive in Christ.

But since we, as all of mankind, are born of the flesh (and while we remain in these temples of flesh until that glorious day of the Lord) we will not be able to escape the flesh. Yes there is a war going on between the Spirit and the flesh. But this is not to say that we need to be subject to the flesh. We die to it. And how is this achieved? By walking in the spirit. And it is this concept I believed that is sadly lacking in our churches.

As scripture says, “And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligationâ€â€but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirsâ€â€heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

And I say AMEN!

I totally agree with you! Because of the Spirit of Christ dwelling within each believer, eternal life is assured to those born again no matter the sins that one might fall into during the sanctification process of the believer.

 

[stranger]

. . . Just because you are a "believer" today doesn't make you one next year. Certainly, a "believer" at the time of death will not be cast into hell. But it doesn't follow that you will remain a believer, EVEN if you already ARE one. Christ Himself said that not everyone who said "Lord, Lord" would enter into heaven. That includes those who ate with Him and did great works in His name. Paul goes on to say that some people who are BROTHERS are not to be associated with - this presumes that they MAY not choose to return to the Church. And Hebrews 11 is pretty clear that a person can CHOOSE to sin again and will be as if Christ's blood had NOT washed that person clean...

Regards

Hi francisdesales,

Earlier in this tread a post about David raised the question of Saul. Instructive is Saul's confession to David: 'You are more righteous than I'. The deeds (works) of both men are well documented. In Saul's latter years he was tormented by an evil spirit and died a suicide. David's latter years were in my opinion unspectacular - he had all manner of difficulties. . .

Now the questions are:

Were both true believer?
Did either lose his salvation?

While the tread argues 'hypothetical cases' - the scriptures give concrete examples in these two men. The objection could be raised that both were annointed Kings - and this disqualifies them from being used as examples for Christians - but I don't know.

These men lived in early days - we have God's full revelation. In light of that and the warning passages in hebrews 6 . . . all things considered - I would not like to be in Saul's shoes.

I am somewhat reluctant to say salvation can be lost and if I may be candid - this issue strike at my home base - spiritually I am maintaining a dimished glory on a smaller scale to the diminshed glory of the latter temple compared with the former (ie Solomon's). A temple nevertheless.

In Christ: Stranger

 

[francisdesales]

Hi francisdesales,

Earlier in this tread a post about David raised the question of Saul. Instructive is Saul's confession to David: 'You are more righteous than I'. The deeds (works) of both men are well documented. In Saul's latter years he was tormented by an evil spirit and died a suicide. David's latter years were in my opinion unspectacular - he had all manner of difficulties. . .

Now the questions are:

Were both true believer?
Did either lose his salvation?

Hello, Stranger

An excellent example from Scripture, because for Saul, the Bible tells us that the "spirit of God came upon him", and then later, "the spirit of God left him". I do not see why God MUST remain in a soul that refuses to follow God's Will. All the promises made to Christians are made with the presumption that one will use the grace given him to love his neighbor. I believe that Saul WAS a true believer - but then fell away. We recognize this from our own experiences. Even we go through periods of highs and lows spiritually. And while God will not allow His elect to fall, it is quite presumptuous to think WE are one of His elect, merely because we made a faith declaration 20 years ago, or appear to be following God's will TODAY. The Lord Himself said "I never knew you" to those who proclaim with their lips but do not do the Will of the Father. We can safely assume this does not mean only one time...

Now, did Saul "lose" his salvation? It depends how you define WHAT happened when the Spirit first came to Saul. God's presence within us certainly heals us, saves us. But Jesus Himself said that demons can return with several of their comrades, finding the place cleaned out, to inhabit it once again, a worse condition then when just one was there. It doesn't follow that being cured once prevents one from getting sick again, or even dying of sickness - the sickness being sin and the death being eternal.

I believe a person with a humble attitude on this question can throw themselves on the mercy of God and He will bring that person into heaven. I would be careful about expressing that one is "saved" for eternal life - it sounds the opposite of what Paul expresses in 1 Cor 10:12.

Regards

 

[stranger]

Hello, Stranger

An excellent example from Scripture, because for Saul, the Bible tells us that the "spirit of God came upon him", and then later, "the spirit of God left him". I do not see why God MUST remain in a soul that refuses to follow God's Will. All the promises made to Christians are made with the presumption that one will use the grace given him to love his neighbor. I believe that Saul WAS a true believer - but then fell away. We recognize this from our own experiences. Even we go through periods of highs and lows spiritually. And while God will not allow His elect to fall, it is quite presumptuous to think WE are one of His elect, merely because we made a faith declaration 20 years ago, or appear to be following God's will TODAY. The Lord Himself said "I never knew you" to those who proclaim with their lips but do not do the Will of the Father. We can safely assume this does not mean only one time...

Now, did Saul "lose" his salvation? It depends how you define WHAT happened when the Spirit first came to Saul. God's presence within us certainly heals us, saves us. But Jesus Himself said that demons can return with several of their comrades, finding the place cleaned out, to inhabit it once again, a worse condition then when just one was there. It doesn't follow that being cured once prevents one from getting sick again, or even dying of sickness - the sickness being sin and the death being eternal.

I believe a person with a humble attitude on this question can throw themselves on the mercy of God and He will bring that person into heaven. I would be careful about expressing that one is "saved" for eternal life - it sounds the opposite of what Paul expresses in 1 Cor 10:12.

Regards

Hi,
Upon further reflection Saul seems to have been the repository of all that could go wrong with your comment about the demons returning to the empty house. Saul's wineskins had many tares.

In Christ: Stranger

 

[golfjack]

reply

Again Solo, excellent post. With your permission or without it, next week I am going to preach what you preached about this topic. I remember when Brother's Hagin's secretary told him that a Preacher was preaching his message and she thought that he would be mad. But, he said at least someone is listening. In fact, what you have said, I believe encourages believers not to sin, unlike Destiny would have us believe.


I think one has to consider some things before we can say a believer can lose their salvation: How many sins of the flesh does it take? What kind of sins does it take? How many years of sinning does it take? How many sins can be forgiven? If one has a bad habit of many years, like smoking, can he lose his salvation? You see, one cannot answer Biblically these questions. Therefore, the only answer is that a believer cannot lose his salvation. I know that you probably disagree with me, but I still say the only way that one can lose their salvation is to commit the unpardonable sin mentioned in Hebrews 6 and 10. But I doubt if anyone here has commited that sin, and remember Hebrews 10:26 says sin and not sins.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[Solo]

Re: reply

Again Solo, excellent post. With your permission or without it, next week I am going to preach what you preached about this topic. I remember when Brother's Hagin's secretary told him that a Preacher was preaching his message and she thought that he would be mad. But, he said at least someone is listening. In fact, what you have said, I believe encourages believers not to sin, unlike Destiny would have us believe.


I think one has to consider some things before we can say a believer can lose their salvation: How many sins of the flesh does it take? What kind of sins does it take? How many years of sinning does it take? How many sins can be forgiven? If one has a bad habit of many years, like smoking, can he lose his salvation? You see, one cannot answer Biblically these questions. Therefore, the only answer is that a believer cannot lose his salvation. I know that you probably disagree with me, but I still say the only way that one can lose their salvation is to commit the unpardonable sin mentioned in Hebrews 6 and 10. But I doubt if anyone here has commited that sin, and remember Hebrews 10:26 says sin and not sins.



May God bless, golfjack

I agree with you that born again believers cannot lose their salvation which is bound up in the work of Jesus Christ, and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. The unpardonable sin cannot be committed by a born again believer, because I believe that the unpardonable sin is to continually reject the Holy Spirit's conviction that one needs saved through believing in Jesus Christ in order to escape the condemnation that is upon all mankind.

Here is an except from an article that outlines this unpardonable sin:

• Author Dr. Henry Morris insightfully clarifies the true nature of Pharisees' sin:[list:a7cbd]
  "The unforgivable sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit has been interpreted in various ways, but the true meaning cannot contradict other Scripture. It is unequivocally clear that the one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ (John 3:18; 3:36). Thus, speaking against the Holy Spirit is equivalent to rejecting Christ with such finality that no future repentance is possible. 'My spirit shall not always strive with man,' God said long ago (Genesis 6:3). ...In the context of this particular passage (Matthew 12:22-32), Jesus had performed a great miracle of creation, involving both healing and casting out a demon, but the Pharisees rejected this clear witness of the Holy Spirit. Instead they attributed His powers to Satan, thus demonstrating an attitude permanently resistant to the Spirit, and to the deity and saving Gospel of Christ" [Henry M. Morris, The Defender's Study Bible (Iowa Falls, Iowa: World Bible Publishers, 1995), emphasis added.].

The entire article can be read at http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/ ... lesin.html [/list:u:a7cbd]
Thanks for your encouragment and kind words.
God bless you and yours,
Michael

 

[Solo]

Solo,

Well, here is the trick. Just because you are a "believer" today doesn't make you one next year. Certainly, a "believer" at the time of death will not be cast into hell. But it doesn't follow that you will remain a believer, EVEN if you already ARE one. Christ Himself said that not everyone who said "Lord, Lord" would enter into heaven. That includes those who ate with Him and did great works in His name. Paul goes on to say that some people who are BROTHERS are not to be associated with - this presumes that they MAY not choose to return to the Church. And Hebrews 11 is pretty clear that a person can CHOOSE to sin again and will be as if Christ's blood had NOT washed that person clean...

How do you KNOW you are a "believer"? Not by merely saying it. We know Christ abides in us when we are obeying the commandments. THAT is the indication that Christ is within us. This means, of course, that Christ will NOT justify us if we choose to sin and ignore His love for us.

Regards

If one believes as the devils believe but are not born again, they can and will go back to the wallow pits that they are accustomed to; but those that are born again are believers in the work of Jesus Christ, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

Ephesians 1:9-14
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[jgredline]

While having another conversation with another member here, this topic came up. I have decided to copy it over here but with some changes to it. Here is my post from the other thread….

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=15

Where in the world did you come up with this? I will take a guess and say that you took what I said in the other thread out of context....Its ok we will use this opportunity to explain why we need to have a solid understanding of the Bible. First of all, there is no such thing as ‘’cheap Grace’’....None the less you said that ''it allows for walking in the flesh and a sinful lifestyle''

Now let me explain my position on this….
1 John 3:4 nkjv
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Destiny..The Greek word for commits is ''ποιέω'' This word means ‘’practices, willfull’’ or ‘’Habitually’’..In other words a Christian will not be practicing sin. If a ''Christian'' is practicing sin or is habitually willfully sinning, then John tells us that this person is not a Child of God...In other words, this person has never been born from above....This is what I believe as this is what the scripture teaches...

The real question is what is a backsliding Christian? Is there really such a thing? A better word for backsliding would be ''unfaithfulness''
Who in history have been the most unfaithful to God?..Who has backslid the most? Would it be fair to say Israel? You bet...How about King David?...A man after Gods own heart. Did David loose his salvation? What about Sampson, What about Solomon?, what about Peter by denying Jesus 3 times?...That was as big a backslide or as ‘’unfaithful’’ as one gets....You see a true believer will always come back to Christ...Simply look at the story of the prodigal son...
You see the bible teaches that once one is justified, he is saved...By your logic those folks I mentioned would be born again and then unborn again and so forth...This is not taught anyware in scripture....



Now, I want to point out a couple of things on justification....
Joe and Jeff, we started to speak about this a while back, then I got sick, so anyway, take a look.


Now for the sake of context I’m posting the complete section of Scripture but only want to comment on three verses for now……
Romans 5:12-20 nkjv
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In verse 16 the Greek word for Justification is ‘’ δικαίωμα’’ (dikaioma )…This one word is very rich in meaning…When Paul uses this word here, he is emphatic in his speech…Here is the definition of this very word…
1 that which has been deemed right so as to have force of law. 1A what has been established, and ordained by law, an ordinance. 1B a judicial decision, sentence. 1B1 of God. 1B1A either the favourable judgment by which he acquits man and declares them acceptable to Him.

In other words, Paul is saying that now that you are justified it is as Good as Law that was set up by God. It is covenant between God and the person whom is Justified…God has used his signet ring and has sealed this person with the Holy Spirit….


In Verse 18 Paul uses a different Greek word for Justification…Here he uses the word
‘’ δικαίωσις’’ (dikaiosis ) Now why did Paul use a different word here…You see our English translations don’t do us justice here…The English uses the same word when the Greek uses a different word for justification in each verse…OK back to the topic at hand…In verse 18, Pauls is saying this ….1 the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him. 2 abjuring to be righteous, justification.

So again Paul is emphatic here. He is now saying that we are now made righteous and with out blemish and can now be presented to God clothed in the righteousness of Christ.….Since we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, VERSE 16 and made Righteous VERSE 18, It’s a done deal…
I will also mention the the exact opposite of Justification is Condemnation…Paul purposely uses condemnation and justification is the same sentences to get his point across emphatically…


Verse 20 simply means this…. The Greek term Paul uses means "superabounded." Πλεονάζω’’ (pleonazo ) Not only can sin never exceed the grace provided by God, sin loses its threat when compared to the superabounding grace of God

 

[Solo]

The person, the “inward man,†has two choices, to live after the flesh, or the Spirit. When a person sins, he is acting according to the lusts of the flesh, not the desires of the Spirit. When a person sins, he has given his body and mind over to do the evil lusts of the flesh, not to do the good deeds that the Spirit leads him to do. If we live after the flesh, we will die. Which portion of the man who sins is going to die, Solo? The portion that obeyed the orders given by the inner man or the inner man who allowed the dastardly deeds, or both, being they were both accomplices in the crimes? Where is your heart? Is your heart lusting to do evil deeds or in good deeds? the soul that sins, it will die.

When the “inward man†chooses to follow the Spirit and use his mind and body to do good deeds, who will receive the reward? The mind and body, or the inner man?

You might spend some time prayerfully reading Romans as you search for truth. Approach the reading of Romans in a humble, teachable spirit, and God will give you understanding concerning His truths. Here is a portion of scripture that teaches that the inward man delights in the law of God.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25

Also know that Paul continues in Romans 8 that those that have the Holy Spirit after being born again, born of God are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:5-8

John explains to us that the New Creature that is born of God after one is born again cannot sin. The flesh is sold under sin, and if allowed to sin, will. That is why believers are told to crucify the flesh and live in Christ Jesus.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

 

[Oscar3]

So Destiny
Did the prodigal son loose his salvation and then get it back?
Was he un-born again after being born again and then born again, again?

11 Then He said: "A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me. So he divided to them his livelihood. 13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. 14 But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.

17 "But when he came to himself, he said, How many of my father's hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants."

20 "And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.

22 "But the father said to his servants, Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. And they began to be merry.

25 "Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.

28 "But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. 29 So he answered and said to his father, Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30 But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.

31 "And he said to him, Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found. "

 

[mutzrein]

So Oscar - who said the prodigal son was born again?

 

[Solo]

Also, the way Salvation works is UNKNOWN in today's Christian world at-large.

Without knowing what the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:3-17) of God says......how can there be any salvation ?

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

You have yet to describe the teachings of Jesus in John 3 where he defines being born again, and you refuse to give the testimony of your salvation. The false teachings that you espouse concerning your being saved depends on your ability to keep the Law of Moses, without resting in the work of Jesus Christ. You are bound for hell if you do not repent, and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Your continual harping about keeping the 10 commandments, and lack of ability to debate same shows your unscriptural understanding. You have broken all of the 10 commandments because you have broken the least of them.

Since your salvation is based on keeping the ten commandments, you are bound for hell, my dear disillusioned Seventh-day Adventist. You have bought the lie of satan, and are in his family, not God's according to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:5-7

I do not see anything in Jesus' teaching about being born again as including keeping the ten commandments. I see Jesus teaching that one must be born of the flesh and of the Spirit, and being born of the Spirit occurs as the Spirit moves, not as a person moves. Without the Spirit convicting a person of his unrighteousness based on the righteous law of God, he would never be born again. Many, many men have tried to keep the law, but could not. Only Jesus Christ kept the law of God, and He fulfilled it for all who believe in Him. Man cannot keep the Law without the Spirit of God, and until they are born again, the Spirit does not dwell within them. Therefore, a person is born again prior to keeping the Law, not before. You and your father's theology is all lies, but perhaps the Holy Spirit will visit you before you die, so that you can learn what being born again is all about.

 

[Solo]

I’m more interested in answering your post to Jay T since you only made the minimal personal comments in the one to me. (plus I was attracted by the bright colors and bold type) :wink: I have read Romans as I’m sure you are quite aware, and I always try to read prayerfully because there’s not much point in reading without the Holy Spirit’s guidance, is there? All the fine expositors in the world can’t reveal what the Spirit of God can.
You did say:


Wrong, Solo. The Spirit dwells in whoever he wants. You are not born again just because the Spirit indwells you. You are born again when you are completely surrendered to God and obedient to his will. And wrong again, Jesus did preach being born again included the ten commandments… in the form of true good deeds done in sincere love. Read down to verse 21 in John 3 and don’t just quit when you find a bit of scripture to support your view. Especially notice:
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that does evil (doesn’t keep God’s commands) hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that does truth (does keep God’s commands) comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I now understand your position from your own words. Finally!

Perhaps you should study the Word of God with less bias and more humility to the direction of the Holy Spirit. When you understand that the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of being born again, you will have a great start. Good luck.

 

[William Putnam]

Hi Folks
I have decided to start this thread to discuss if ''True Christians'' can loose their salvation.....

A most interesting thread that I have first read through, and I have a couple of questions:

1. You speak of "True Christians." How does one determine if they are a "true Christian" or not? HOw does one really know? For me, I still have the tendency to sin, even while I believe I am "saved" in the Protestant/Evangelist sense, being a former Fundamentalist myself.

2. I have on my hard-drive, scriptural clips that are quite powerful that seems to refute the idea that when "Once saved, always saved." (OSAS)Can the following scriptural quotes be explained in the light of OSAS?


WHY THERE IS NO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION


Mt 10:22
But whoever holds out till the end will escape death. (NAB)

Mt 24:13
The man who holds out to the end, however, is the one who
will see salvation. (NAB)

Mk 13:13
Nonetheless, the man who holds out till the end is the one
who will come through safe. (NAB)

Lk 9:62
Jesus answered him, "Whoever puts his hand to the plow but
keeps looking back is unfit for the reign of God." (NAB)

Rom 5:2
... we boast of our hope for the glory of God. (NAB)

Rom 8:24-25
In hope we are saved. But hope is not hope if its object is
seen; how is it possible to hope for what he sees? And hoping
for what we cannot see means awaiting it with patient
endurance. (NAB)


1 Cor 4:3-5
It matters little to me whether you or any human court
pass judgment on me. I do not even pass judgment on myself.
Mind you, I have nothing on my conscience. But that does
not mean that I am declaring myself innocent. The Lord is
the one to judge me, so stop passing judgment before the
time of his return. He will bring to light what is hidden
in the darkness and manifest the intentions of hearts. At
that time, everyone will receive his praise from God. (NAB)

1 Cor 9:27
No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after
having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
(NAB)

1 Cor 10:12
Therefore whoever thinks he is standing secure should
take care not to fall. (NAB)

2 Cor 6:3
We avoid giving anyone offense, so that our ministry may
not be blamed. On the contrary, in all that we do we
strive to present ourselves as ministers of God, acting
with patient endurance amid trials, difficulties,
distresses, beatings, imprisonments, and riots; as men
familiar with hard work, sleepless nights and fastings...
(NAB)

Gal 5:1-4
1. For freedom Christ set us free; so stand firm and do
not submit again to the yoke of slavery. 2. It is I, Paul,
who am telling you that if you have yourselves circumsised,
Christ will will be of no benefit to you. 3. Once again, I
declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is
bound to observe the entire law. 4. You are separated from
Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you
have fallen from grace. (NAB)

Phil 2:12
So then, my dearly beloved, obedient as always to my
urging, work with anxious concern to achieve your
salvation, not only when I happen to be with you but
all the more now that I am absent. It is God, who, in
his good will toward you, begets in you any measure of
desire or achievement. (NAB)

Phil 3:11-14
11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the
dead. 12 It is not that I have already taken hold of
it or have already attained perfect maturity , but I
continue my persuit in hope that I may possess it,
since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ
[Jesus]. 13 Brothers, I for my part do not consider my-
self to have taken possession. Just one thing: for-
getting what lies behind but straining forward to what
lies ahead. 14 I continue my pursuit toward the goal,
the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus.
(NAB)

1 Tim 4:1
Not the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times
some will turn away from the faith by paying attention
to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions...(NAB)

1 Tim 5:15
For some have already turned away to follow Satan. (NAB)

Heb 3:12-15
12 Take care, brothers, that none of you may have an
evil and unfaithful heart, so as to forsake the living
God. 13 Encourage yourselves daily while it is still
"today," so that none of you may grow hardened by the
deceit of sin. 14 We have become partners of Christ if
only we hold the beginning of the reality firm until
the end, 15 for it is said:

Oh, that today you would hear his voice:
"Harden not your hearts as it the
rebellion." (NAB)

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have
once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift
and shared in the holy Spirit 5 and tasted the good
word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and
then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance
again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for
themselves and holding him up to contempt.

Heb 6:11-12
Our desire is that each of you show the same zeal till the
end, fully assured of that for which you hope. Do not grow
lazy but Imitate those who through faith and patience, are
inheriting the promises. (NAB)

1 Pet 1:13-15
So gird the loins of your understanding; live soberly; set
your hope on the gift to be conferred on you when Jesus
Christ appears. (NAB)

2 Pet 2:15
Abandoning the straight road, they have gone astray,
following the road of Baslaam, the son of Bosor, who
loved payment for wrongdowing,...

2 Pet 2:20-21 20
For if they, having escaped the defilement of the world
through the knowledge of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ,
again become entangled and overcome by them, their last
condition is worse then their first. 21 For it would have
been better for them not to have known the way of righteous-
ness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy
commandment handed down to them.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps
all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.

"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the
same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous
things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty
of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24

 

[mutzrein]

Good thought provoking stuff Bill. Thanks.

 

[golfjack]

reply

William, Remember we must interpret scripture in context. For example, in Matt. 24:13, Jesus is talking about the seven year tribulation, in which believers will be raptured up to heaven wiith the dead in Christ first, then the living. I just had time to briefly read your post. Later, I will take one verse at a time.


May God bless, golfjack