Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[justbyfaith]

I never said that that is what it teaches. It doesn't teach either way whether or not believers sin. I clearly stated that it teaches the idea that those whose lives are characterized by sin cannot be a believer. What it absolutely does not and cannot mean is that believers don't sin. The whole context of 1 John refutes that idea. One of the main reasons for John writing this epistle is to encourage believers to not sin and instead pursue holiness.

What context?

It all depends on what one's attitude towards that sin is. Are they truly sorrowful for doing it and repentant? That doesn't mean they won't do it again. The nature of temptation and sin is such that a specific sin can keep coming back, until we resist often enough, with the help of the Holy Spirit, that it becomes less and less.

If they keep doing it, it is practicing it; even if it is infrequent (once every two weeks).

You cannot excuse yourself by saying "It is just this one time and therefore I am not practicing it", if you are going to do it again in two weeks, again two weeks after that, and so on. You are practicing it.

What does that even mean? To practice something is to do it purposely and repeatedly, either for the purpose of becoming better at it, to make it a good habit, or unknowingly make it a bad habit.

See above.

No, that is not the case. This actually agrees with everything I state below regarding the passages in 1 John. The Greek grammar here is such that Jesus is speaking of those who constantly do sin, who live in sin (Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary: John, p. 53)

You are speaking of John 8:34? You are making the verse redundant; Jesus does not even have to say it; it is an obvious truth that those who habitually commit sin are slaves of sin.

Jesus is actually telling us something new; that those who commit even one sin are slaves of sin.

Of course there are those who have stopped committing sins that they used to practice, but that doesn't mean they don't sin at all. There are numerous ways believers sin. I gave several passages which shows this to be the case and I give plenty more. It's worth noting that you didn't address those.

I didn't need to address all of them; because they didn't create an airtight case for your contention.

You're claiming you don't sin. You might want to rethink that:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
...
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Neither of those verses speak against saying that we "do no sin".

If they did, they would be contradicting the plain meaning, in the kjv, of 1 John 3:4-9.

Paul makes it very clear that Peter was being a hypocrite (which is a sin) and was leading others into that same sin.

Peter was being obedient to the biblical principle of Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8.

His only "sin" was to compromise Paul's setting forth of the gospel among those specific Gentiles.

A Christian is, by definition, one who is born again. There is no such thing as a nominal believer who is not born again. There are only believers who are born again. There certainly are those who think they are believers who are not, and that is part of John's point in 1 John 1.

By that definition, Christians don't sin.

Therefore (at the risk of violating ToS) if you sin, you are not a Christian.

But in order that I might stay true to the rules, I contend that it is only the born again type of Christian who doesn't sin.

There is the non-born-again type...people who come and sit in the pews every Sunday but have no relationship with Christ.

Yes, it is clear. In the greater context of 1 John and the rest of the NT, the understanding of 1 John 3:9 is that true Christians sin, but their lives aren't characterized by sin. It cannot mean that Christians don't sin as that would contradict what John says elsewhere in 1 John

What context are you speaking of? I don't see it anywhere in the context that true Christians sin.

Those who are free indeed are no longer slaves of sin; and therefore they do not commit sin (John 8:34).

Today if you hear His voice, don't harden your heart as in the provocation.

Additionally, both Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament and The Expositor's Greek Testament show that the Greek grammar of 1 John 3:6, 8, and 9 is talking about continuous and habitual action. Hence why the ESV and NIV renderings are more clear as to what John was actually saying.

Even if that is the case, if you don't cease completely from committing a sin, you are practicing it habitually. In order for it to not be habitual, you would have to not keep doing it.

All Christians sin.

Speak for yourself.

I command those words to fall to the ground.

Literally everything John says in 1 John goes against your position.

No, actually, everything in 1 John goes against your position.

 

[justbyfaith]

This has been soundly refuted.

Nope.

 

[justbyfaith]

I have given what is plainly written:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

It is also again worth noting the several passages that you ignored that very clearly speak of believers sinning.

I will say that Christians do sin; but born again Christians don't sin (1 John 3:9; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).

Also, since I can very likely prove that Jesus is satan, or that satan is greater than Jesus, using the ESV, I would say that, as a translation, it cannot be trusted.

Here it is in the kjv:

1Jo 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jo 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Compare also 1 John 3:6, above, with the following:

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth (sinneth not) for ever.

 

[Free]

What context?

I've given a lot of context. I'm not going to keep repeating myself, especially when you continually ignore it.

You are speaking of John 8:34? You are making the verse redundant; Jesus does not even have to say it; it is an obvious truth that those who habitually commit sin are slaves of sin.

Now you are contradicting your previous use of this verse, which is what I was addressing. You said: "In John 8:34, we find that if we commit (even one) sin, we are slaves of sin" (found HERE). Which is it? Is Jesus saying that if we sin once and we're slaves to sin or is he talking about the "obvious truth that those who habitually commit sin are slaves of sin"? It cannot be both.

Jesus is actually telling us something new; that those who commit even one sin are slaves of sin.

Again, which is it?

I didn't need to address all of them; because they didn't create an airtight case for your contention.

Yes, they did, and I think that is why you didn't address them.

Neither of those verses speak against saying that we "do no sin".

If they did, they would be contradicting the plain meaning, in the kjv, of 1 John 3:4-9.

Yes, they very clearly speak against a believer saying that they do not or have no sin. And, that doesn't contradict 1 John 3:4-9, as I've shown your understanding of that passage is not correct, based on the Greek grammar. The "plain meaning in the KJV" isn't actually at all plain. As I have shown, Greek grammar doesn't always translate properly when doing a word-for-word translation. Anyone who knows more than one language knows about this issue. There simply are things, such as verb tenses, that don't translate directly to English because we don't have those tenses.

So, while the KJV, and other versions, are technically correct in their word-for-word translation, they are slightly misleading by not addressing the verb tenses, as the ESV and NIV do. Of course, it shouldn't matter since every true Christian knows they sin, if they are being honest with themselves and God.

Peter was being obedient to the biblical principle of Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8.

His only "sin" was to compromise Paul's setting forth of the gospel among those specific Gentiles.

His sin was hypocrisy and leading others astray by it.

By that definition, Christians don't sin.

Therefore (at the risk of violating ToS) if you sin, you are not a Christian.

You're begging the question by presuming that Christians can't sin. My definition is correct and Christians sin.

But in order that I might stay true to the rules, I contend that it is only the born again type of Christian who doesn't sin.

There is the non-born-again type...people who come and sit in the pews every Sunday but have no relationship with Christ.

Again, there is no such thing as a "non-born-again" type of Christian who has "no relationship with Christ." By definition, that describes an unbeliever. There are only believers and unbelievers.

What context are you speaking of? I don't see it anywhere in the context that true Christians sin.

Again, I have given it several times. True Christians sin.

Those who are free indeed are no longer slaves of sin; and therefore they do not commit sin (John 8:34).

Again, that is not what Jesus said. You really need to clear up your contradictory belief.

Today if you hear His voice, don't harden your heart as in the provocation.

What does this have to do with the discussion?

Even if that is the case, if you don't cease completely from committing a sin, you are practicing it habitually. In order for it to not be habitual, you would have to not keep doing it.

No, that is not what that means. By habitual is meant the idea that one purposely and willfully engages in sin without feeling sorrowful over it. That one's life is characterized by sin.

Speak for yourself.

I command those words to fall to the ground.

They won't because all Christians sin, even you. Remember John's warnings in 1:8, 10.

No, actually, everything in 1 John goes against your position.

Not at all. One of the verses you ignored that provide the larger context is 1 John 5:16:

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
1Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (ESV)

That is repeat what was said in 1:8-2:1 and 3:6-10. From beginning to end, John clearly states that believers sin but that if we (continually) confess our sins, God will forgive us because we have an advocate before the Father.

 

[Free]

I will say that Christians do sin; but born again Christians don't sin

That is a nonsensical statement. There is no such thing as a non-born-again Christian. A person is either born again and a Christian or they are not. There is no in between.

Also, since I can very likely prove that Jesus is satan, or that satan is greater than Jesus, using the ESV, I would say that, as a translation, it cannot be trusted.

I'm sure you could. People do all sorts of things like that by taking things out of context. The KJV is a good version but it is outdated and the ESV is superior.

Here it is in the kjv:

1Jo 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jo 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Compare also 1 John 3:6, above, with the following:

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth (sinneth not) for ever.

Again, your seeming idolatry of the KJV is clouding your understanding. The Greek grammar is what matters; that is what determines the proper meaning, not KJV English.

 

[justbyfaith]

Now you are contradicting your previous use of this verse, which is what I was addressing. You said: "In John 8:34, we find that if we commit (even one) sin, we are slaves of sin" (found HERE). Which is it? Is Jesus saying that if we sin once and we're slaves to sin or is he talking about the "obvious truth that those who habitually commit sin are slaves of sin"? It cannot be both.

It is that, if we sin once, we are slaves of sin. My point was that, to say that John 8:34 is saying that if we commit sin habitually, we are slaves of sin, would in fact be a statement that is redundant. It is obvious that those who commit sin habitually are slaves of sin...Jesus doesn't even need to say that. What needs to be said is that if we commit even one sin we are a slave of sin....that is not generally known...and it needed to be said...therefore Jesus said it.

Again, which is it?

If we commit even one sin, we are a slave of sin; as I said.

Yes, they did, and I think that is why you didn't address them.

Nope. My answer is that people who read the scriptures (loosely defined as "Christians") may indeed sin; but those whose lives have been transformed by the gospel (definable as "born again Christians") don't sin.

Yes, they very clearly speak against a believer saying that they do not or have no sin.

While they speak against a believer saying that they have no sin (or that he "has not sinned"), they do not speak against a believer saying that he does not sin.

And, that doesn't contradict 1 John 3:4-9, as I've shown your understanding of that passage is not correct, based on the Greek grammar.

Your idolatry of the ESV leads you to think that it is more in accordance with the Greek than is the kjv. You are wrong about that.

(btw, we do not even have the original Greek autographs; and therefore a case can be made that when the kjv was translated, the Holy Spirit took control of the process and restored things that were lost; and that therefore the kjv is more accurate to God's message than anything that you might find in Greek today).

His sin was hypocrisy and leading others astray by it.

Nope. Peter's "sin" was that he was not thinking of the gospel to the Gentiles but was focused on his own ministry; which was to the circumcision. He catered to the weak consciences of the visiting Jewish believers as scripture would have mandated him to do (Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8). Of course, that scripture was not yet written but would be written by Paul later; which indicates that Paul later repented of his judgment of Peter and even vindicated him by writing those passages.

Again, there is no such thing as a "non-born-again" type of Christian who has "no relationship with Christ." By definition, that describes an unbeliever. There are only believers and unbelievers.

Yes, it describes an unbeliever. I would say, therefore, that there are unbelievers who consider themselves to be Christians.

People who agree to the basic tenets of the faith but do not have the Holy Spirit are not, in fact, born again.

While they might fall under the category and definition of what we might call "Christian"

Again, I have given it several times. True Christians sin.

Nope.

Again, I command those words to fall to the ground.

Again, that is not what Jesus said. You really need to clear up your contradictory belief.

Jesus did, in fact, say that those who commit sin are slaves of sin (John 8:34).

No, that is not what that means. By habitual is meant the idea that one purposely and willfully engages in sin without feeling sorrowful over it. That one's life is characterized by sin.

There are unbelievers who even feel sorrow and remorse over the fact that they have sinned; so that does not define a Christian.

What defines a Christian is true repentance; in which the believer has turned away from sinning and has ceased from the practice of sinning. Which means that what he once did often, he does not do at all any more.

Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your heart as in the provocation.

They won't because all Christians sin, even you.

As a genuine believer in Christ, I cannot sin in the sight of the Father. He looks down at me and sees the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ. I am not under the law (Romans 6:14), am dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and am delivered from the law (Romans 7:6). Where the law does not apply, there is no transgression (Romans 4:15). And sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Therefore, sin is not imputed to me in the sight of the Father (Romans 5:13, Romans 4:8) and I cannot, in that sense, sin.

Because I am led of the Spirit, I am not under the law (Romans 5:18).

Therefore, in that I consistently walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, it means that I have ceased from sinning; for the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me (Romans 8:4).

Because I bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn me in my behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23).

I have a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21). They testify to the fact that it is righteousness indeed.

So, there is also a sense in which, as I continue to walk in the freedom that Christ has afforded to me, I am able to walk in holiness and righteousness, even as He is righteous, in the practical sense of the word "righteousness" (1 John 3:7).

I know that you do not believe that verse; or else you think that the Greek says something different; but I believe it as it is written in the kjv.

Not at all. One of the verses you ignored that provide the larger context is 1 John 5:16:

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.
1Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (ESV)

That is repeat what was said in 1:8-2:1 and 3:6-10. From beginning to end, John clearly states that believers sin but that if we (continually) confess our sins, God will forgive us because we have an advocate before the Father.

Again, I am not saying that Christians don't sin (those who might read such passages as these). I am saying that born again Christians don't sin (people to whom the word of God has been implanted so that they are doers and not hearers only)

That is a nonsensical statement. There is no such thing as a non-born-again Christian. A person is either born again and a Christian or they are not. There is no in between.

There is such a thing as a nominal Christian who is not born again. Someone who agrees to the basic tenets of the faith but does not have the Holy Ghost is a Christian but he is not born again.

The KJV is a good version but it is outdated and the ESV is superior.

The kjv is superior.

Your idolatry of the ESV has led you into some error that I am uncertain you will ever be able to recover from.

Again, your seeming idolatry of the KJV is clouding your understanding.

I can say the same...that your seeming idolatry of the ESV is clouding your understanding.

 

[justbyfaith]

You're begging the question by presuming that Christians can't sin. My definition is correct and Christians sin.

Nope. For, again, I command those words to fall to the ground.

Because I think that you are opposing yourself here (Acts 18:6, 2 Timothy 2:25).

 

[justbyfaith]

I will say that while true, born again Christians are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), that every one is going to be judged by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Revelation 20:11-15).

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, I have given it several times.

The "context" that you have given does not say what you think it says.

Try me. Bring it up again; and see if I cannot show you that this is the case.

 

[justbyfaith]

1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

 

[justbyfaith]

your seeming idolatry of the KJV

If the kjv were a graven image, I can see how there might be the possibility of idolatry.

But since it is the word of God, I consider that it is not a sin to exalt it to a high position in my thinking; for this is even what God has said:

Psa 138:2, I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

 

[Free]

It is that, if we sin once, we are slaves of sin. My point was that, to say that John 8:34 is saying that if we commit sin habitually, we are slaves of sin, would in fact be a statement that is redundant. It is obvious that those who commit sin habitually are slaves of sin...Jesus doesn't even need to say that. What needs to be said is that if we commit even one sin we are a slave of sin....that is not generally known...and it needed to be said...therefore Jesus said it.

If we commit even one sin, we are a slave of sin; as I said.

You said it, but Jesus didn't. You gone beyond scripture by misusing John 8:34, since Jesus is talking about habitual sin. You're reading into the text something that isn't there.

Nope. My answer is that people who read the scriptures (loosely defined as "Christians") may indeed sin; but those whose lives have been transformed by the gospel (definable as "born again Christians") don't sin.

Again, there is no such thing as non-born-again Christians. That's like saying there are such people as atheist Christians or agnostic Christians or Hindu Christians. There are Christians and non-Christians only. And Christians sin, as the verses and passages I provided prove conclusively.

While they speak against a believer saying that they have no sin (or that he "has not sinned"), they do not speak against a believer saying that he does not sin.

If a believer claims that he does not sin, that is no different than claiming he has no sin.

Your idolatry of the ESV leads you to think that it is more in accordance with the Greek than is the kjv. You are wrong about that.

You'll notice that in addition to the ESV and NIV, I used references that supported their renderings by showing what the Greek actually says.

(btw, we do not even have the original Greek autographs; and therefore a case can be made that when the kjv was translated, the Holy Spirit took control of the process and restored things that were lost; and that therefore the kjv is more accurate to God's message than anything that you might find in Greek today).

No, a case most certainly cannot be made for that. Even the original KJV translators disagree with that, which, apart from them explicitly denying any such notion, is evidenced by further versions coming out that had numerous changes. For someone to believe that "the Holy Spirit took control of the process and restored things that were lost; and that therefor the kjv is more accurate to God's message than anything that you might find in Greek today," would be fallacious in several ways.

Nope. Peter's "sin" was that he was not thinking of the gospel to the Gentiles but was focused on his own ministry; which was to the circumcision. He catered to the weak consciences of the visiting Jewish believers as scripture would have mandated him to do (Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8). Of course, that scripture was not yet written but would be written by Paul later; which indicates that Paul later repented of his judgment of Peter and even vindicated him by writing those passages.

That's reading things into the text that just aren't there.

Yes, it describes an unbeliever. I would say, therefore, that there are unbelievers who consider themselves to be Christians.

People who agree to the basic tenets of the faith but do not have the Holy Spirit are not, in fact, born again.

While they might fall under the category and definition of what we might call "Christian"

"It describes an unbeliever," just as I said. So, there is no such thing as a non-born-again Christian and I wonder why you would use that confusing and unnecessary terminology.

Again, I command those words to fall to the ground.

They won't because they're biblical and true.

Jesus did, in fact, say that those who commit sin are slaves of sin (John 8:34).

He said habitual sin, the practice of continual sin. Anything else is reading into the text.

There are unbelievers who even feel sorrow and remorse over the fact that they have sinned; so that does not define a Christian.

What defines a Christian is true repentance; in which the believer has turned away from sinning and has ceased from the practice of sinning. Which means that what he once did often, he does not do at all any more.

It means that their life is characterized by sin or being unrepentant over their sin. It does not mean that their sinning ceases altogether.

As a genuine believer in Christ, I cannot sin in the sight of the Father. He looks down at me and sees the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ. I am not under the law (Romans 6:14), am dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and am delivered from the law (Romans 7:6). Where the law does not apply, there is no transgression (Romans 4:15). And sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Therefore, sin is not imputed to me in the sight of the Father (Romans 5:13, Romans 4:8) and I cannot, in that sense, sin.

Because I am led of the Spirit, I am not under the law (Romans 5:18).

Therefore, in that I consistently walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit, it means that I have ceased from sinning; for the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me (Romans 8:4).

Because I bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn me in my behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23).

I have a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21). They testify to the fact that it is righteousness indeed.

So, there is also a sense in which, as I continue to walk in the freedom that Christ has afforded to me, I am able to walk in holiness and righteousness, even as He is righteous, in the practical sense of the word "righteousness" (1 John 3:7).

I know that you do not believe that verse; or else you think that the Greek says something different; but I believe it as it is written in the kjv.

And yet you sin.

Again, I am not saying that Christians don't sin (those who might read such passages as these). I am saying that born again Christians don't sin (people to whom the word of God has been implanted so that they are doers and not hearers only)

There is such a thing as a nominal Christian who is not born again. Someone who agrees to the basic tenets of the faith but does not have the Holy Ghost is a Christian but he is not born again.

No, there isn't. There are Christians and non-Christians. Having correct beliefs doesn't make one a Christian, being justified does. The Bible clearly shows that believers, "born-again Christians," sin.

The kjv is superior.

Your idolatry of the ESV has led you into some error that I am uncertain you will ever be able to recover from.

I can say the same...that your seeming idolatry of the ESV is clouding your understanding.

Again, I've based what I've said on the actual Greek, not a fallacious and unsupported assumption that the KJV has corrected the Greek texts that we have.

 

[Free]

If the kjv were a graven image, I can see how there might be the possibility of idolatry.

But since it is the word of God, I consider that it is not a sin to exalt it to a high position in my thinking; for this is even what God has said:

Psa 138:2, I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Graven images are only one aspect of idolatry. Money, power, fame, cars, houses, people, etc., can be idols; anything can be that we elevate above and prioritize over God.

The "context" that you have given does not say what you think it says.

Try me. Bring it up again; and see if I cannot show you that this is the case.

I have given it numerous times. It's all there and it certainly says what I think it says.

 

[justbyfaith]

When a person is born again, God deals with every sin.

Tit 2:11 (kjv), For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13, Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14, Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tit 2:15, These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

 

[justbyfaith]

You said it, but Jesus didn't. You gone beyond scripture by misusing John 8:34, since Jesus is talking about habitual sin. You're reading into the text something that isn't there.

The word "habitual" is not in the passage. So, you are reading into the text the word "habitual" which isn't there.

Again, there is no such thing as non-born-again Christians. That's like saying there are such people as atheist Christians or agnostic Christians or Hindu Christians. There are Christians and non-Christians only. And Christians sin, as the verses and passages I provided prove conclusively.

There are born again Christians, nominal Christians, and non-Christians.

Soil type #2, in the parable of the sower, "believes for a while" and "in time of trial or temptation falls away".

This is speaking of someone who believes in Jesus but is not of the elect.

Some go as far as to say that their faith is a mere mental assent; that it is nominal, shallow, or lukewarm; and that therefore, while they profess faith in Jesus Christ, their faith isn't genuine bona fide faith that procures for them the issue of being born again.

If a believer claims that he does not sin, that is no different than claiming he has no sin.

I believe that you are wrong there; and we will have to agree to disagree. But I will say this: that you have no scripture to substantiate your point of view. And as for me, I can say that if they are the same, that 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 3:4-9 are in contradiction to each other (while I know that you hold to and worship a translation that conforms the latter passage to your interpretation of the former; while I still also might be able to show how the latter passage contradicts the former according to your interpretation, even in your translation).

You'll notice that in addition to the ESV and NIV, I used references that supported their renderings by showing what the Greek actually says.

You'll notice that I use the nlt in addition to the kjv. While I will say that, since we don't have the original autographs, what you read in the original Greek may not be trustworthy.

What is trustworthy is the sovereignty, omnipotence, and love of God. Because He is sovereign and omnipotent, He is able to preserve His unadulterated message in the kjv. Because He is loving, He was motivated to do so.

And, since there is a controversy about "kjv-only", it is something that ought to be considered; for the kjv-only side of the controversy may in fact be correct. And if it is, then you cannot trust the ESV and the NIV and other versions for that in many cases they are watered down and in many other cases they warp the meaning of what is written so that you get satan's point of view on things rather than God's.

If the "kjv-only" side of the controversy is incorrect, then you are safe to read those other translations and to hold them as authoritative.

But I would say that, since you do not know which side of the controversy is correct, that to not hold exclusively to the kjv is to take a gamble on eternity.

No, a case most certainly cannot be made for that. Even the original KJV translators disagree with that, which, apart from them explicitly denying any such notion, is evidenced by further versions coming out that had numerous changes. For someone to believe that "the Holy Spirit took control of the process and restored things that were lost; and that therefor the kjv is more accurate to God's message than anything that you might find in Greek today," would be fallacious in several ways.

Except that it is not fallacious in any way.

That's reading things into the text that just aren't there.

Those things are definitely within the text.

"It describes an unbeliever," just as I said. So, there is no such thing as a non-born-again Christian and I wonder why you would use that confusing and unnecessary terminology.

There is such a thing as a non-born-again Christian; it is simply someone who agrees to the basic tenets of the faith but has not received the Holy Ghost. But I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree here, too (and your blood be on your own head if you are of the non-born-again type).

They won't because they're biblical and true.

They will fall to the ground because they are neither biblical nor true.

He said habitual sin, the practice of continual sin. Anything else is reading into the text.

No; the word "habitual" is not even in the passage. You are reading the word "habitual" into the text, therefore.

It means that their life is characterized by sin or being unrepentant over their sin. It does not mean that their sinning ceases altogether.

If anyone repents, they cease from sinning (see Titus 2:14-15 (kjv) in my post above).

And yet you sin.

Not possible.

No, there isn't. There are Christians and non-Christians. Having correct beliefs doesn't make one a Christian, being justified does. The Bible clearly shows that believers, "born-again Christians," sin.

Nope. It may show that "Christians" sin; it does not show that "born again Christians" sin.

Again, I've based what I've said on the actual Greek, not a fallacious and unsupported assumption that the KJV has corrected the Greek texts that we have.

And since the original autographs have been lost to us, you cannot rely on the original Greek. It is not as trustworthy as you think.

Graven images are only one aspect of idolatry. Money, power, fame, cars, houses, people, etc., can be idols; anything can be that we elevate above and prioritize over God.

God Himself has magnified His word above all His name. So, it might even be said that God encourages us to commit idolatry with His word; to exalt His word above God's name itself.

I have given it numerous times. It's all there and it certainly says what I think it says.

Nope.

 

[justbyfaith]

The following scripture declares (in context) that those who are justified by grace are not disobedient any longer.

Tit 3:3, For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

 

[justbyfaith]

Some Christians, being not born again, are ten inches away from salvation.

 

[07/07/07]

The following scripture declares (in context) that those who are justified by grace are not disobedient any longer.

Tit 3:3, For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Great point on this Scripture. The unconverted man engages in the lust of his flesh, but a new man in Christ engages in the things of the Spirit.

 

[justbyfaith]

Even the original KJV translators disagree with that,

They were simply being humble. However, the Holy Spirit testifies to me (if not to you) that the king james version of the Bible is inspired and inerrant as concerning doctrine.

 

[Deidr]

When an alleged Christian is hardened in the bad way, its because he is a child of the Devil, a Tare sown among the wheat.

You cannot lose your salvation if you are a child of God, nor would you live like a Tare. That's why "we can know them by their fruits":

16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Matt. 7:16-20 NKJ)

Once we are in God's hands, no one (which includes yourself) can take you out. Eternal life isn't eternal if you can perish after you get it:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Jn. 10:27-29 NKJ)

I think, you think of salvation as the moment you accepted Christ. Rather as Willard would say the daily Life we receive from God.

There is the beginning, middle and end.

Think of Salvation as Deliverence from something. Like an act behavior, evil people, or circumstances.

Ephesians tells us we were dead in our treasspasses and sin and quickened together with Christ.

Right?

Do you see what one was delivered from?

If in fact Jesus is the beginning and end of our faith, then it's what we do with Him that's in the middle that determines the continual state of deliverence.

It's definitely about the Journey getting heaven into us now.
His Kingdom, as a matter of fact is available to enter now.
Scripture said that the kingdom was not eating nor drinking but prace and Joy in the Holy Ghost.

So how and where are sins forgiven. Scripture says if we walk in the Spirit we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

If we narrow salvation down to merely his death we will not come to understand how we are saved by His life.

I believe He reconciled us by His death in order to be saved by His life.
The Reconciliation Jesus did was salvation-deliverence

And so is being delivered from presence and power of sin.
They are also what we can be saved from. "If"

So a quick look

People can be saved from the penalty of sin, the presence of sin and the power of sin.

Right now what Jesus gives us grace to do in this world is be saved from the presence of sin.

If by the Spirit you put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live.
You see "live" He came that we may have life and have it more abundantly.

Now, I am one, and could be wrong but believe the Baptism that saves us now- 1 Peter 3:21 Is not into His death, but into His life. Being immersed into God's presence by learning to become like Jesus, Henceforth doing what He did. For the answer from God for a clear conscience is found by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So while Jesus died for the penalty of sin, why then would you feel guilt? because your body is not in alignment with the new Spirit given. Therefore, your conscience is guilt ridden.

And recall He came that He may destroy the works of the devil.
Therefore if you are led by the Spirit you are sons of God.

Basically my little saying is: you are not going to know what you have until you walk in it.

Look up the passages where scripture says this is Love being made perfect that we have boldness in the day of Judgement because as He is so are we in this world.

Another words we need to get acclimated with God now so Heaven will not be like Hell when we get there.