Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[Alfred Persson]

I think, you think of salvation as the moment you accepted Christ. Rather as Willard would say the daily Life we receive from God.

There is the beginning, middle and end.

Think of Salvation as Deliverence from something. Like an act behavior, evil people, or circumstances.

Ephesians tells us we were dead in our treasspasses and sin and quickened together with Christ.

Right?

Lets see if Ephesians agrees with that:

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Eph. 2:4-7 NKJ)

"Made us alive" -Paul; "Those made alive can die" -Deidr
"By grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED."-Paul; "By sinning you can undo your salvation" -Deidr

"Raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places" - Paul; "You aren't there yet"- Deidr

Ephesians tells us we were dead, but salvation is a PAST EVENT, now we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places.

If that is not a "done deal", nothing is.

Therefore, your theory is "unhistorical" from God's perspective. HE saved us KNOWING we would sin the future. He saved us anyway.

Jesus said this:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Jn. 10:27-29 NKJ)

"No one is able to snatch" us out of God's hand. "No one" includes us. We aren't powerful enough.

Your theory contradicts Christ, our Teacher. Our LORD. Our God. He knows. So who should I believe, Him or you?


Once I ALSO focused on the hypocrites and backsliders, its clear these evil people can't get to heaven.

But you aren't seeing the total picture.

They are TARES sown among the Wheat, children of the devil.

Tares claim they believe, and for a time they fool everyone, even themselves.

They were never saved, they are children of the devil.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (Matt. 13:36-43 NKJ)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. (1 Jn. 2:19 NKJ)

 

[Deidr]

Lets see if Ephesians agrees with that:

Agrees with what- that's the passage

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Eph. 2:4-7 NKJ)

That in the ages to come " He might" / "In Christ Jesus"
One is made alive together "with Christ" we are told to remain in His love.

"Made us alive" -Paul; "Those made alive can die" -Deidr

Good question.
The reason it's a good questions because we must asked what type of death.
Let go to this passage:
But first Can and does God turn His back on Sin? If He does what is Lost?


But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. EZEKIAL 18:24

"By grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED."-Paul; "By sinning you can undo your salvation" -Deidr

This thought that you have right here is the reason I responded.
You have been made alive together With Christ, but we must continue to remain in Him.

Let's see if scripture agrees.
John 15
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.

What is said to happen if you do not remain?
John 15
"anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

So you are saying we do not have to remain in His Love because we were once quickened together with Christ?

I figure many people will live eternally, Yep and not die...but How will they spend living forever. So you make it to heaven, for the sake of argument, yet did not try to stay as close to Jesus now while living. What will heaven be like for one who did not try to stay close to Jesus now?

Recall again what the kingdom is? PEACE AND JOY IN THE HOLY GHOST..GOOGLE THE PASSAGE.

Sense that is so, lets look at another part of the passage that speaks of the life we receive from God Now- which is our salvation.

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete."

Do you see that Salvation is not just a moment you got converted but everyday LIFE we receive from God. Ungoing.

"Raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places" - Paul; "You aren't there yet"- Deidr

I don't think for your sake its about being there but knowing.
And as I said earlier you don't know what you have until you walk in it.

Watch this passage-
1 John 5
"And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."

 Now note: if eternal life is in His son and you do not remain in His son's love/ teachings then you going to tell me you are still experiencing joy and peace? The ETERNAL quality of life with HAVING Guilt AT the same time?

"13I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.14And this is the confidence that we have before Him: If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we already possess what we have asked of Him."

Do you see here We are to know we have eternal life. Another words the way I see it is Christ is in us but are we in Him?
CHRIST IN US is tHE HOPE oF GLORY

You know why the Father never left Jesus? Because He always did what was pleasing to Him. And you know the will of the father is that everyone who looks to the son and believes([continues to believe ]added for clarity) will have life and be raised on the last day.

Jesus destroyed /defeated death and if we live by the spirit- ("how much more will we be saved by His life")

So His death reconciled ....but we cant forget what living by His life does....it's also the source of deliverence.

You cannot forget this passage 1 John 4:17

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.


QUESTION How is Christ? My thought is -He is alive! in the presence of His father.

Ephesians tells us we were dead, but salvation is a PAST EVENT, now we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places.

If that is not a "done deal", nothing is.

Therefore, your theory is "unhistorical" from God's perspective. HE saved us KNOWING we would sin the future. He saved us anyway.

What exactly is my theory? That going to heaven when I am physically dead is not all there is to salvation? My Question is what is heaven going to be for me when I get there?

Just for the sake of playing the advocate...
I have been saved (delivered )from a lot of things in the past-
Like evil people I'd pray I can be delivered from them again.

There are names written in the book of life (that is also a done deal) but they can be taken out. Just saying many people might see it that way.

 

[Deidr]

Lets see if Ephesians agrees with that:

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Eph. 2:4-7 NKJ)

"Made us alive" -Paul; "Those made alive can die" -Deidr
"By grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED."-Paul; "By sinning you can undo your salvation" -Deidr

"Raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places" - Paul; "You aren't there yet"- Deidr

Ephesians tells us we were dead, but salvation is a PAST EVENT, now we are seated with Christ in the heavenly places.

If that is not a "done deal", nothing is.

Therefore, your theory is "unhistorical" from God's perspective. HE saved us KNOWING we would sin the future. He saved us anyway.

Jesus said this:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Jn. 10:27-29 NKJ)

"No one is able to snatch" us out of God's hand. "No one" includes us. We aren't powerful enough.

Your theory contradicts Christ, our Teacher. Our LORD. Our God. He knows. So who should I believe, Him or you?


Once I ALSO focused on the hypocrites and backsliders, its clear these evil people can't get to heaven.

But you aren't seeing the total picture.

They are TARES sown among the Wheat, children of the devil.

Tares claim they believe, and for a time they fool everyone, even themselves.

They were never saved, they are children of the devil.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! (Matt. 13:36-43 NKJ)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. (1 Jn. 2:19 NKJ)

Jesus said this:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Jn. 10:27-29 NKJ)

This is the real deal wouldn't you say for those who remain in Christ.
3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.

"No one is able to snatch" us out of God's hand. "No one" includes us. We aren't powerful enough.

This should be the reason to remain in Christ, where you cannot be snatched out.

Your theory contradicts Christ, our Teacher. Our LORD. Our God. He knows. So who should I believe, Him or you?

My theory is? That we are promised life now, and we don't have to wait to die. My theory is that it's not the words on a page that define us but being in the words themselves.
My theory is that there is more to Salvation then being reconciled but also how we are saved by His life.
My theory is that salvation is a life.

You should always believe Christ But as Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. Now if what I spoke was not scriptural you should definitely not listen. But is that the case?

Once I ALSO focused on the hypocrites and backsliders, its clear these evil people can't get to heaven.

But you aren't seeing the total picture.

thinking If you see the whole pic as believe so we can go to heaven when we die as the whole pic. Then maybe, just maybe you dont see the total pic.

It's may your whole body, soul, and Spirit be preserved the day of the Lord.
So what happens in this life matters. If all there is to salvation is heaven when we die. Then if we believed we should die so we can go.

But that's not the case- For He saved us (reconciled) us that we would live soberly and righteously in this present world looking for His glorious apperaring.

Also He came that we may have life and have it more abundantly.

He came that He might destroy the works of the devil.
Another words He has already defeated death in this world and we can too by learning from Him.

He told us: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it, and whosoever will lose his life for My sake shall find it.

They are TARES sown among the Wheat, children of the devil.

In the end One thing I could say is that Jesus's death on the cross for our sins should be a reason we should trust Him.
We are looking at why we want to serve this King. He is a King that went on the front line for His citizens.
But Death could not hold Him in the grave and He had the power to raise Himself up. Where He lives forever to interceed on the behalf of those who come to Him.

So First Trust Jesus for who He is, so that you can be saved through what He has done.

The Pharisees came to John to be Baptized, but John called them broods of vipers. He told them to bring forth fruit of repentence - Maybe they believed because they were of Abraham's seed they had it made. And Maybe for some of us it's belief in a particular doctrine we been taught that we think we have it made. But it's a Who they are turning to, to trust in. Not merely ideal or thoughts about Him.
And that is Jesus.

Therefore the Gospel: The kingdom is available to enter now for those who put their trust in Jesus, so trust Jesus for in Him you will find everything you need including forgiveness of sin.

Why trust Him?
Because He is who He claimed to be. The son of the living God.
He healed the sick. Raised, the dead. 5000 souls He fed, Turned water into wine. Came in the form of men. Died and arose for our Justification. And Is at the right hand of the father willing to interceed on our behalf.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This should be the reason to remain in Christ, where you cannot be snatched out.

Explain. Copy paste the exact words where Christ says we can be snatched out:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Jn. 10:27-29 NKJ)

Show me the words that say we can be snatched out.

 

[07/07/07]

People within the Christian world split hairs over this topic; however, in the end, we will stand or fall before the King of Glory one day when the books are opened. Will your name be found written?

Revelation 22
[10] And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
[17]And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (KJV)

 

[07/07/07]

Explain. Copy paste the exact words where Christ says we can be snatched out:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Jn. 10:27-29 NKJ)

Show me the words that say we can be snatched out.

Your own cited Scripture testifies of the truth. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." Backsliders are no longer following Jesus, but rather the lusts of their flesh. You can't have Jesus and the lusts of the flesh too. You're either righteous or unrighteous. You're either holy or unholy. You're either on your way to Heaven or on your way to hell. There's no middle ground, because the middle ground belongs to Satan.

 

[Deidr]

Explain. Copy paste the exact words where Christ says we can be snatched out:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Jn. 10:27-29 NKJ)

Show me the words that say we can be snatched out.

Explain. Copy paste the exact words where Christ says we can be snatched out:

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. (Jn. 10:27-29 NKJ)

Show me the words that say we can be snatched out.

Did I say anything that says one can be snatched out.
What I said was where is the place we need to remain whereby we are not able to be snatched out.

Just look at Israel as an example when they were outside of God's will did their generation enter the promise land.
What happen when they served the golden calf- were many not destroyed?
God told Israel not to take the spoils and one man did and the consequence of him taking gold and burrying it is Israel lost the
next battle they were in.

So you are saying that one can be protected outside of God's will?
Yet scripture says the annoiting teaches you to remain in Him.
Another words protection and the hiding place is in Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Your own cited Scripture testifies of the truth. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." Backsliders are no longer following Jesus, but rather the lusts of their flesh. You can't have Jesus and the lusts of the flesh too. You're either righteous or unrighteous. You're either holy or unholy. You're either on your way to Heaven or on your way to hell. There's no middle ground, because the middle ground belongs to Satan.

We both agree on that. But you say WHEAT can stop following Christ and snatch themselves out of God's Hands. That contradicts Christ.

TARES who claimed to follow Christ and seem to do so for a time, and stop following Him, were never in God's Hand. They were never saved.

I claim you both look at TARES and when they stop following Christ find it offensive some Calvinists says "Once Saved Always Saved".

I agree with you, it offends our sense of Justice someone who returns to wickedness, will be saved. I agree with the text you cited in Ezekeil.

However, they are not WHEAT who turn to wickedness, they were never saved and so Calvinists are right, OSAS doesn't apply.

BUT, unlike Calvinists I maintain there is another group of people between "the Elect, and Non-Elect", the Jews in Christ's day called them the "Middling people".

THEN as I read the same texts you cite for Believers losing their salvation, I apply those texts to them.

This third group are not Elect, but can join the Elect if they believe and continue to follow Jesus Christ.

These Scriptures that seem to say people can lose their salvation, only apply to them:

1 Corinthians 10:12
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
1 Corinthians 9:27
1 John 5:16-17
1 Timothy 1:19
1 Timothy 4:1
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
2 Timothy 2:12-13
Colossians 1:22-23
Ezekiel 18:24
Ezekiel 33:12-13
Galatians 5:19-21
Galatians 5:4
Hebrews 10:26-31
Hebrews 3:12
Hebrews 6:4-6
James 5:19-20
John 15:1-6
Luke 8:13
Luke 8:18
Matthew 10:22
Matthew 24:12-13
Matthew 7:21-23
Revelation 2:10
Revelation 2:4-5
Revelation 3:5
Romans 11:20-23
Romans 11:22


For example, when James says turning a sinner from error will save his soul from eternal death I believe it. But we are talking about the "middling people" and NOT the elect.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. (Jas. 5:19-20 NKJ)

The existence of another class of people standing before God on Judgment Day completely upends all binary Eschatology.

If you want to see what I have to say about this controversy, and my solution to it, go here:

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The following is excerpted from it:


As a former Pharisee Paul was expert in this Judgment Day tradition (Ac. 22:3; 23:6; 26:4-5). Moreover, John wrote Revelation 20:12-13 100% consistent with it. It is historical fact many Pharisees became Christians (Ac. 15:5; 23:6; 26:5).

In the days of Christ, the School of Hillel taught the Old Testament scriptures revealed a merciful God who forgave repentant sinners, even those in Hades. Many Pharisees like Paul were of this school. They believed Three classes of People on Judgment Day: The Righteous, the Wicked, and the "Middling" or "To be determined" and this required the existence of multiple "books":

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, "Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
"The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] "The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] "Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] "If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] "If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death."
[G] Said R. Abin, "What is the Scriptural [foundation for this]? [Ps. 69:29 states]: 'Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Let them not be inscribed among the righteous.' 'Let them be blotted out of the book'-this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. '[… of the] living'-this refers to the book of the righteous. 'Let them not be inscribed among the righteous'-this refers to the book of middling [people]."-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

The multiple books implies the Elect are not the only Persons saved on Judgment Day.

The names of the Elect are in the Book of Life (Phil. 4:3; Rev. 13:8; 17:8) but other names in it cannot be "the Elect" because they can be blotted out (Rev. 3:5; Exod. 32:32; Ps. 69:28) or written in (Ps. 69:28; 87:6; Dan. 12:1; Mal. 3:16).

That requires other books exist, one book of names and deeds for those who will be written into the book of life, and another book of names and their deeds for those who will be blotted out, so they can be properly listed for judgment.

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev. 20:12 NKJ)

The existence of another class of people standing before God on Judgment Day completely upends all binary Eschatology.

If you want to see what I have to say this controversy, and my solution to it, go here:

Home | End Time News

Unlock the Scriptures Discover insights on the prophesied events and prepare for the future with End Time News. Explore Now Site Under Construction Ignore Starter Template Testimonies etc. Read Blog posts only. Guidance Receive expert analysis and interpretations on prophetic scriptures for...

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[Alfred Persson]

Your own cited Scripture testifies of the truth. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." Backsliders are no longer following Jesus, but rather the lusts of their flesh. You can't have Jesus and the lusts of the flesh too. You're either righteous or unrighteous. You're either holy or unholy. You're either on your way to Heaven or on your way to hell. There's no middle ground, because the middle ground belongs to Satan.

First Century Rabbinic Tradition on the Three Classes judged on Judgment Day

Our LORD Jesus Christ rejected Rabbinic Tradition that contradicted the Word of God (Mt. 15:4-9). Other Tradition He likened to "treasure":

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)

In the days of Christ, to the School of Hillel the Old Testament revealed God mercifully forgave repentant sinners, even those in Hades. Paul was a Pharisee (Ac. 22:3; 23:6; 26:4-5) of this school. They believed three classes of People appear on Judgment Day: The Righteous, the Wicked, and the "Middling People". This construct is implied in John's vision of Judgment Day where multiple books are opened."

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, "Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
"The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] "The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] "Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] "If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] "If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death."
[G] Said R. Abin, "What is the Scriptural [foundation for this]? [Ps. 69:29 states]: 'Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Let them not be inscribed among the righteous.' 'Let them be blotted out of the book'-this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. '[… of the] living'-this refers to the book of the righteous. 'Let them not be inscribed among the righteous'-this refers to the book of middling [people]."-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

The multiple books implies the Elect are not the only Persons saved on Judgment Day.

The names of the Elect are in the Book of Life (Phil. 4:3; Rev. 13:8; 17:8) but other names in it cannot be "the Elect" because they can be blotted out (Rev. 3:5; Exod. 32:32; Ps. 69:28) or written in (Ps. 69:28; 87:6; Dan. 12:1; Mal. 3:16).

That requires other books exist, one book of names and deeds for those who will be written into the book of life, and another book of names and their deeds for those who will be blotted out, so they can be properly listed for judgment.

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. (Rev. 20:12 NKJ)

As a former Pharisee Paul was expert in this Judgment Day tradition of the Middling People (Ac. 22:3; 23:6; 26:4-5). The existence of the "Middling People" is implied when Paul divides Israel into two groups, the "elect…and the rest". "The rest" have not "stumbled so they should fall":

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! (Rom. 11:7-12 NKJ)

The Middling People are in the middle of two extremes in the parable of the Sower. Those "on the wayside" are under Satan's control. Those on "good ground" Christ's Sheep, they know His voice and immediately in Him bear fruit. Although the Middling People on "stony ground" or among "thorns" don't fare well in this parable, its clear the choice was up to them:

3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables, saying: "Behold, a sower went out to sow.
4 "And as he sowed, some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds came and devoured them.
5 "Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.
6 "But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.
7 "And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.
8 "But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
9 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
…
18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
20 "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21 "yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
22 "Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
23 "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Matt. 13:3-23 NKJ)

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The Three Classes is the missing key that allows us to interpret OSAS where it is taught, and that some can lose what they potentially have, if they don't remain faithful. Then every scripture fits like pieces in a picture puzzle, without forcing them together.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Your own cited Scripture testifies of the truth. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." Backsliders are no longer following Jesus, but rather the lusts of their flesh. You can't have Jesus and the lusts of the flesh too. You're either righteous or unrighteous. You're either holy or unholy. You're either on your way to Heaven or on your way to hell. There's no middle ground, because the middle ground belongs to Satan.

The “Middling People” both Jews and Greeks can be saved by endurance in righteousness:

5 …God,
6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness– indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God. (Rom. 2:5-11 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Your own cited Scripture testifies of the truth. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." Backsliders are no longer following Jesus, but rather the lusts of their flesh. You can't have Jesus and the lusts of the flesh too. You're either righteous or unrighteous. You're either holy or unholy. You're either on your way to Heaven or on your way to hell. There's no middle ground, because the middle ground belongs to Satan.

God is not partial. The children of the Devil will never agree to living righteously, so they are eternally lost. The children of God, will always agree to living righteously with God, if given the opportunity to make the choice. The "Middling People" can go either way.

God knew who everyone was, before He created. But there is a day God will reveal to angels and man the WHY. Why everything had to go as it did.

Like an "apologist", God has a rebuttal for every complaint of what went down:

Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." (Rev. 15:4 NKJ)

Therefore, God lets everyone make their free will choice so its equal, all have opportunity to be saved. But those He knows are His, He will not tolerate one of them be lost, so they alone are predestined to salvation. But in real time, they too must confess belief in Christ to be saved, whether in this life, or in hell.

If the Elect die in unrighteousness, they will be punished just like anyone else in Hell.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:25-36 NKJ)

Elect in Hell Rise On Judgment Day? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Why are there Elect in Hell on Judgment Day? Only those whose Names are not found written in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire. Therefore, some names of those in hell were written in the book. All written in the book of life are called "the Elect" in scripture. Therefore,

endtimenews.net

God is not partial, but He will not permit the loss of even one of His elect---because He would mourn them for all eternity making heaven "hell" for God. If God couldn't prevent the loss of the elect, He wouldn't have created. That is what Predestination does, ensure everything ends up as God wants.

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...

endtimenews.net

So the "born again" know God is their Father. They know they are saved, nothing will change that. But some in the church "don't know", the "Middling People". Hopefully, they will persist in doing what is good in the eyes of our God, so their names will be added to the Book of Life.

 

[gordon777]

God is not partial. The children of the Devil will never agree to living righteously, so they are eternally lost. The children of God, will always agree to living righteously with God, if given the opportunity to make the choice. The "Middling People" can go either way.

God knew who everyone was, before He created. But there is a day God will reveal to angels and man the WHY. Why everything had to go as it did.

Like an "apologist", God has a rebuttal for every complaint of what went down:

Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." (Rev. 15:4 NKJ)

Therefore, God lets everyone make their free will choice so its equal, all have opportunity to be saved. But those He knows are His, He will not tolerate one of them be lost, so they alone are predestined to salvation. But in real time, they too must confess belief in Christ to be saved, whether in this life, or in hell.

If the Elect die in unrighteousness, they will be punished just like anyone else in Hell.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:25-36 NKJ)

Elect in Hell Rise On Judgment Day? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Why are there Elect in Hell on Judgment Day? Only those whose Names are not found written in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire. Therefore, some names of those in hell were written in the book. All written in the book of life are called "the Elect" in scripture. Therefore,

endtimenews.net

God is not partial, but He will not permit the loss of even one of His elect---because He would mourn them for all eternity making heaven "hell" for God. If God couldn't prevent the loss of the elect, He wouldn't have created. That is what Predestination does, ensure everything ends up as God wants.

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...

endtimenews.net

So the "born again" know God is their Father. They know they are saved, nothing will change that. But some in the church "don't know", the "Middling People". Hopefully, they will persist in doing what is good in the eyes of our God, so their names will be added to the Book of Life.

Everybody engaging in teaching their neighbour, is untaught themselves.

Why speak about what God is doing, or who might go to God and who might not ?

Those born again cant do the things that this forum does, the truth is loud and clear, those who are without the Spirit, not born of God, do disputes, do try to teach others, but are unable to, as all that the forum reveals is contention, which is not of heaven, it is earthly, devilish, and every evil work.


James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Everybody engaging in teaching their neighbour, is untaught themselves.

Not everybody:

Romans 15:14

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those born again cant do the things that this forum does, the truth is loud and clear, those who are without the Spirit, not born of God, do disputes, do try to teach others, but are unable to, as all that the forum reveals is contention, which is not of heaven, it is earthly, devilish, and every evil work.

You lack the spiritual fruit of forbearance:

24And a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome, but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, and forbearing. 2 Timothy 2:24

You could probably use a little kindness, too.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Some Christians, being not born again, are ten inches away from salvation.

If they are not born again, they are not Christians.

 

[grace2]

If they are not born again, they are not Christians.

Yes, but we are not the judge of our own qualifications or salvation.

God and Jesus are the Judge of those.

So self-assurance will not count.

thank you.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Everybody engaging in teaching their neighbour, is untaught themselves.

Why speak about what God is doing, or who might go to God and who might not ?

Those born again cant do the things that this forum does, the truth is loud and clear, those who are without the Spirit, not born of God, do disputes, do try to teach others, but are unable to, as all that the forum reveals is contention, which is not of heaven, it is earthly, devilish, and every evil work.


James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, but we are not the judge of our own qualifications or salvation.

Really we are the judge of our own standing in the Lord.
Only in the last day of judgement will we be proven right or wrong.
Paul wrote..."Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Cor 13:5)

God and Jesus are the Judge of those.

Final judgement for sure.

So self-assurance will not count.

I feel that self-assurance must be based on the truth, so unless one is lying to themselves, their judgement will be spot on.
Man can't be doubting their entire lives about their standing in Christ.
Isn't that faithlessness?

 

[grace2]

Really we are the judge of our own standing in the Lord.

Nope, we are not.

Jesus is the judge.

So you are one of those who believe Christians are not subject to be judged?

You are wrong, friend.

Do you need a reference?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Nope, we are not.

Are you a Christian?
If you answer, are you not judging yourself?

Jesus is the judge.

Yes, He is, but why can we not also know whether or not we are "in Christ"?

So you are one of those who believe Christians are not subject to be judged?

Not at all.
I am simply saying we know within ourselves where we stand.

You are wrong, friend.
Do you need a reference?

No thanks, as I am not reprobate.
I know where I stand in relation to my new Father.