Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[Jethro Bodine]

That is an excuse to not obtain the righteousness of the Lord in the present moment.

Only if you make it an excuse.
What I shared, and what you are calling an excuse to not obtain a righteous lifestyle, is right out of 2 Peter 1.

You say that it is gradual; and in that doctrine you remove the obligation to surrender to the Lord's full righteousness in the present moment.

No, the person who does not take on the obligation of producing the fruit and traits of the Spirit has "forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins." 2 Peter 1:9. That's an unbeliever. Unbelievers do that, not believers.

But I believe that, in that, you are in effect rejecting salvation.

The person who believes the truths I'm sharing is not rejecting salvation. The person who uses the truths I'm sharing as an excuse to not grow and increase in the traits of the Spirit is the one rejecting salvation, having "forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins" - 2 Pete 1:9. He is an unbeliever.

So don't reject what I'm showing you right out of the Bible just because you think that's an excuse to not live a holy life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It means that we do not want to and don't have to sin; and that therefore we cannot sin (1 John 3:9).

Well, you're in dreamland, friend.

Even the Bible acknowledges that believers with the Holy Spirit don't always do what they want to do - Galatians 5:17.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, you never committed that particular sin ever again?

I did.
And I have never become a slave to it.
But, surely, some have.
I've got my own sins that brought me into bondage.

See, what you can't do is write hard and fast, either-or, black and white doctrine from the Biblical truth that 'whoever sins is a slave to sin', and 'we are a slave to whatever has mastered us'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you commit that sin again, it is because of the addictive nature of sin.

No, lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you don't want to and don't have to sin, why would you sin?

Ignorance, weakness, foolishness, immaturity, lack of vigilance, fear...

All these reasons for sinning can and will be forgiven. The only reason for sinning that can not be forgiven is unbelief.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we hunger and thirst after righteousness, we will be filled.

That means that we turn away from sin and don't commit it any longer.

Well, good luck with that.
And when you find out that isn't true, the Christ you believe in and love will be there to forgive you and restore you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is what repentance is.

Repentance is a change of mind about sin.

Despite the best intentions and desires of the Spirit filled, born again, devout believer, there is, sooner or later, that deed or thought that doesn't match the change of mind that you have about sin. That's why the exhortation of scripture is to perform deeds worthy of your repentance:

"20...I declared that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance." Acts 26:20

See, if repentance was defined as obedience there would be no need for Paul to tell us to have deeds that match our repentance.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, you're in dreamland, friend.

Even the Bible acknowledges that believers with the Holy Spirit don't always do what they want to do - Galatians 5:17.

Galatians 5:17 is qualified by 1 John 3:9...we cannot do the things that we would...

We would sin if we could...however, the Holy Spirit restrains us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Galatians 5:17 is qualified by 1 John 3:9...we cannot do the things that we would...

It's easy to see in the passage that the "do not do what you want" are the righteous things we want to do but don't, not the sin we want to do but don't:

17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:17-18

 

[Free]

Galatians 5:17 is qualified by 1 John 3:9...we cannot do the things that we would...

As has been stated before, 1 John 3:9 speaks of the one whose life is characterized by sin. What that does not say is that we cannot sin. In fact, John makes it absolutely clear that believers sin:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

Again, it is about what characterizes one's life, sin or righteousness, and even their feelings towards their sin, not whether or not they sin sometimes or even every day, which every believer does. It's a constant battle, as Paul points out in Romans 7.

We would sin if we could...

We can and do. Note what John says close to the end of his first epistle, which supports and is consistent with everything I have said:

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. (ESV)

That's just speaking of visible sin, not those in the heart or done in private. If that isn't convincing, even though that should put an end to the discussion, there is more:

1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
1Co 3:3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? (ESV)

1Co 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
...
1Co 5:6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? (ESV)

1Co 6:8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers! (ESV)

1Co 8:12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. (ESV)

1Co 11:20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat.
1Co 11:21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk.
1Co 11:22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not. (ESV)

Gal 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Gal 2:12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.
Gal 2:13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?” (ESV)

Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. (ESV)

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
...
Heb 12:4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Heb 12:5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. (ESV)

There is much more that could be posted but this is more than sufficient to prove that Christians sin because we still battle the flesh and its desires.

however, the Holy Spirit restrains us.

The Holy Spirit doesn't restrain us but provides a way out of temptation, if we so choose (1 Cor 10:13).

 

[justbyfaith]

It's easy to see in the passage that the "do not do what you want" are the righteous things we want to do but don't, not the sin we want to do but don't:

17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:17-18

Gal 5:17, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The "cannot" here in Galatians 5:17 corresponds to the "cannot" in 1 John 3:9.

 

[justbyfaith]

As has been stated before, 1 John 3:9 speaks of the one whose life is characterized by sin. What that does not say is that we cannot sin. In fact, John makes it absolutely clear that believers sin:

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

I don't know how you get from this passage that believers sin. It teaches the opposite.

If you commit a sin, then repent, and commit the same sin again two weeks later, repent, and commit the same sin again two weeks later; and this continues for many years; are you not practicing sin?

But, because you are committing it infrequently, you may deceive yourself every time into thinking, "It is just this one time; and therefore I am not practicing it."

"practicing sin" in this passage is speaking of the fact that it is done practically.

In John 8:34, we find that if we commit (even one) sin, we are slaves of sin.

Therefore, those who are free indeed have ceased from committing the sins that they used to practice.

Again, it is about what characterizes one's life, sin or righteousness, and even their feelings towards their sin, not whether or not they sin sometimes or even every day, which every believer does.

Speak for yourself.

We can and do.

I do not.

Gal 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

he "was to be blamed" (kjv). Your translation places the verse in contradiction to John 5:24 and 2 Corinthians 5:10.

And we have already discussed here in this thread, in depth, your argument wherein you want to accuse the apostle Peter of sinning. I will say again that his "sin" was in regards to Paul's ministry, who was an apostle to the Gentiles, in that Peter's action compromised what Paul was trying to minister to the Gentiles.

But concerning his own ministry, as he was the apostle to the circumcision, he did what was right in that he catered to the consciences of the visiting Jewish people; even according to Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8. So, Peter was therefore being obedient and was acting in hypocrisy only in Paul's sight.

but this is more than sufficient to prove that Christians sin

Nope. It may prove that Christians sin; but it does not prove that born again Christians sin. One may be a nominal believer and not be born again.

The scripture is clear:

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The Holy Spirit doesn't restrain us

Okay, let me rephrase that...the Holy Spirit restrains me.

I know that there are those whom the Bible says are "past feeling" who are not restrained in their behaviour but indulge in all actions of the flesh without restraint (Ephesians 4:19).

 

[justbyfaith]

As has been stated before, 1 John 3:9 speaks of the one whose life is characterized by sin. What that does not say is that we cannot sin. In fact, John makes it absolutely clear that believers sin:

Do you really think that if you say that 1 John 3:9 teaches something that is in direct contradiction to what it actually teaches, that people will believe you?

It just goes to show that there is a certain power in teaching what people's itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).

Very likely, certain people will believe what you say over and above what is plainly written in holy scripture.

However, those who have the anointing and the unction will abide in Him, even as the anointing teaches them to do (1 John 2:20,27).

And what does it mean to abide in Him but that we do not sin (1 John 3:6)?

And the one who does the will of God shall abide for ever (1 John 2:17).

 

[justbyfaith]

Repentance is a change of mind about sin.

So, change your mind already, and come into agreement with what I am preaching to you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Gal 5:17, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The "cannot" here in Galatians 5:17 corresponds to the "cannot" in 1 John 3:9.

The 'cannot' isn't the issue.
The issue is what are the 'things that ye would'?

You and Hopeful say the things that you want to do are sin, and so you don't do them because of the Spirit. While the rest of us see he's saying the things that you want to do are the right things, and that we don't do them because of the flesh. The 'but if you are led by the Spirit' in verse 18 (the opposite of what he's saying in verse 17) shows us that we are right.

17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:17-18

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, Peter was therefore being obedient and was acting in hypocrisy only in Paul's sight.

Oh, so Paul is the one who sinned, then, by falsely accusing Peter.

Either way, Galatians 2:11-14 is a no-win for the sinless perfection doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nope. It may prove that Christians sin; but it does not prove that born again Christians sin. One may be a nominal believer and not be born again.

So you really do believe the doctrine of sinless perfection.

 

[Free]

I don't know how you get from this passage that believers sin. It teaches the opposite.

I never said that that is what it teaches. It doesn't teach either way whether or not believers sin. I clearly stated that it teaches the idea that those whose lives are characterized by sin cannot be a believer. What it absolutely does not and cannot mean is that believers don't sin. The whole context of 1 John refutes that idea. One of the main reasons for John writing this epistle is to encourage believers to not sin and instead pursue holiness.

If you commit a sin, then repent, and commit the same sin again two weeks later, repent, and commit the same sin again two weeks later; and this continues for many years; are you not practicing sin?

But, because you are committing it infrequently, you may deceive yourself every time into thinking, "It is just this one time; and therefore I am not practicing it."

It all depends on what one's attitude towards that sin is. Are they truly sorrowful for doing it and repentant? That doesn't mean they won't do it again. The nature of temptation and sin is such that a specific sin can keep coming back, until we resist often enough, with the help of the Holy Spirit, that it becomes less and less.

"practicing sin" in this passage is speaking of the fact that it is done practically.

What does that even mean? To practice something is to do it purposely and repeatedly, either for the purpose of becoming better at it, to make it a good habit, or unknowingly make it a bad habit.

In John 8:34, we find that if we commit (even one) sin, we are slaves of sin.

No, that is not the case. This actually agrees with everything I state below regarding the passages in 1 John. The Greek grammar here is such that Jesus is speaking of those who constantly do sin, who live in sin (Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary: John, p. 53)

Therefore, those who are free indeed have ceased from committing the sins that they used to practice.

Of course there are those who have stopped committing sins that they used to practice, but that doesn't mean they don't sin at all. There are numerous ways believers sin. I gave several passages which shows this to be the case and I give plenty more. It's worth noting that you didn't address those.

Speak for yourself.

I do not.

You're claiming you don't sin. You might want to rethink that:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
...
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

he "was to be blamed" (kjv). Your translation places the verse in contradiction to John 5:24 and 2 Corinthians 5:10.

And we have already discussed here in this thread, in depth, your argument wherein you want to accuse the apostle Peter of sinning. I will say again that his "sin" was in regards to Paul's ministry, who was an apostle to the Gentiles, in that Peter's action compromised what Paul was trying to minister to the Gentiles.

But concerning his own ministry, as he was the apostle to the circumcision, he did what was right in that he catered to the consciences of the visiting Jewish people; even according to Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8. So, Peter was therefore being obedient and was acting in hypocrisy only in Paul's sight.

Paul makes it very clear that Peter was being a hypocrite (which is a sin) and was leading others into that same sin.

Nope. It may prove that Christians sin; but it does not prove that born again Christians sin. One may be a nominal believer and not be born again.

A Christian is, by definition, one who is born again. There is no such thing as a nominal believer who is not born again. There are only believers who are born again. There certainly are those who think they are believers who are not, and that is part of John's point in 1 John 1.

The scripture is clear:

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes, it is clear. In the greater context of 1 John and the rest of the NT, the understanding of 1 John 3:9 is that true Christians sin, but their lives aren't characterized by sin. It cannot mean that Christians don't sin as that would contradict what John says elsewhere in 1 John and what many passages in the NT state, as I have given.

Additionally, both Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament and The Expositor's Greek Testament show that the Greek grammar of 1 John 3:6, 8, and 9 is talking about continuous and habitual action. Hence why the ESV and NIV renderings are more clear as to what John was actually saying.

And, I'll mention again that this is what is said in 1 John 1:9. The Greek grammar states that "confess" is "present subjunctive, speaking of continuous action." The translation of that verse, as given in Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, is: If we continue to confess our sins, faithful is He and righteous to forgive our sins and cleanse us from every unrighteousness.

Okay, let me rephrase that...the Holy Spirit restrains me.

I know that there are those whom the Bible says are "past feeling" who are not restrained in their behaviour but indulge in all actions of the flesh without restraint (Ephesians 4:19).

All Christians sin. I agree with both Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament and The Expositor's Greek Testament, when they go through 1 John 1:8-10--both say that Perfectionism is heresy, precisely because it clearly goes against what John is actually saying.

Literally everything John says in 1 John goes against your position.

 

[justbyfaith]

So you really do believe the doctrine of sinless perfection.

Praise the Lord, you are identifying it with a misnomer.

 

[Free]

Do you really think that if you say that 1 John 3:9 teaches something that is in direct contradiction to what it actually teaches, that people will believe you?

I think that since I have shown what John actually says, according Greek grammar, that people will believe me. The problem is that you are reading the KJV and other versions without actually doing the harder studying. Do they render what John says correctly in a word-for-word approach? Yes, but in so doing, they don't translate what John the actual meaning of what he writes, since it doesn't translate directly into English. That is the nature of translating from one language into another, especially when one is more precise than the other.

It just goes to show that there is a certain power in teaching what people's itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).

What believers want to hear is that they cannot sin and therefore have no need to confess or regularly examine themselves to see if there is sin that needs to be dealt with. That's cheap grace, which isn't grace at all.

Very likely, certain people will believe what you say over and above what is plainly written in holy scripture.

I have given what is plainly written:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

It is also again worth noting the several passages that you ignored that very clearly speak of believers sinning.

However, those who have the anointing and the unction will abide in Him, even as the anointing teaches them to do (1 John 2:20,27).

This sounds like self-righteousness and pride, which are sins.

And what does it mean to abide in Him but that we do not sin (1 John 3:6)?

This has been soundly refuted.

And the one who does the will of God shall abide for ever (1 John 2:17).

Yes, and that includes acknowledging that one sins and then continually confessing those sins, and so growing in sanctification by the power of the Holy Spirit.