Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[Hopeful 2]

I sure have.


They're very much speaking to believers. I have given the contextual reasons why; which you have not done. You also have not provided any other form of support for your assertions.

Again, throughout all of chapter 1and into 2 are John's continual use of "we," us," and "our." He is speaking to believers, about believers, and including himself.


As I have pointed out previously, the Greek meaning doesn't get conveyed in certain versions of English translations.

John's use of the verb "confess" in 1 John 1:9 is in the "present subjunctive, speaking of continuous action." The translation of this verse given in Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, is: "If we continue to confess our sins, faithful is He and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from every unrighteousness."

Additionally, both Wuest's Word Studies in the Greek New Testament and The Expositor's Greek Testament show that the Greek grammar of 1 John 3:6, 8, and 9 is also talking about continuous and habitual action. Hence why the ESV and NIV renderings are more clear as to what John was actually saying.

Why would John say that? Because he is simply repeating what Jesus said, as recorded by him, in John 8:34:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. (ESV)

"The Greek grammar here is such that Jesus is speaking of those who constantly do sin, who live in sin" (Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary: John, p. 53).

So, what was actually written by John, in the Greek, proves your position incorrect.


Once again, the Greek doesn't come through in the English but proves that your position cannot possibly be correct.

"If we should say that not we have sinned"--the order of the Greek. The phrase "we have sinned" is in the perfect tense, meaning ongoing in the present time; that is, after conversion.


No. John is writing to "my little children;" to believers. Notice that he says "so that you may not sin," not "so that you will not sin." If believers could no longer sin, that is a pointless statement. When he says "if anyone does sin," he is linking that to "so that you may not sin," that is, to his "little children."


That is nowhere even implied. You're reading far too much into the text of 1 John.


What kind of question and statement are those? How in the world do you get that from anything I've said? You're reading into my statements just like you do 1 John. "Brother" (and "sister") is used throughout the NT of fellow believers; that is almost exclusively what it means unless the context is clearly talking about biological relations. It never refers to an unbeliever.


Your statements here are just fallaciously begging the question.

Describe a person who walks in darkness.

 

[Free]

Describe a person who walks in darkness.

John says it is those who think they have fellowship with God but say the following:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
...
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Which he contrasts with those who are true believers and continually confess their sins:

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (ESV)

In other words, John's whole point is that those who think they are true followers of Christ but claim to be without sin, are those actually in darkness, and that the true follower of Christ will continually confess their sin and so be forgiven and cleansed.

John is writing to believers, not unbelievers, and so is not addressing those who do not claim to be followers of Christ.

 

[07/07/07]

Sin is inevitable, yet we are commanded to resist the works of the flesh.

So, if we resist the works of the flesh, how is sin inevitable? Are you referring to sins of omission (ignorance)?

 

[Hopeful 2]

John says it is those who think they have fellowship with God but say the following:
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

Correct.
As darkness is sin, those who commit sin cannot say they have no sin, or that they have fellowship with God.
The opposite of them are those who walk in the light, which is God in whom is no sin.
Sinners are not in God.

Which he contrasts with those who are true believers and continually confess their sins:

So-called believers who are still walking in darkness-sin.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (ESV)
In other words, John's whole point is that those who think they are true followers of Christ but claim to be without sin, are those actually in darkness, and that the true follower of Christ will continually confess their sin and so be forgiven and cleansed.
John is writing to believers, not unbelievers, and so is not addressing those who do not claim to be followers of Christ.

John is writing to believers, about both those who walk in God and those who walk in sin.
He uses light and darkness to delineate the one from the other.
Contrary to your belief, those walking in sin are not in God.

 

[Free]

Correct.
As darkness is sin, those who commit sin cannot say they have no sin, or that they have fellowship with God.
The opposite of them are those who walk in the light, which is God in whom is no sin.
Sinners are not in God.

So-called believers who are still walking in darkness-sin.

John is writing to believers, about both those who walk in God and those who walk in sin.
He uses light and darkness to delineate the one from the other.
Contrary to your belief, those walking in sin are not in God.

The context of 1 John, the grammar used in the relevant verses, and the greater context of the NT all strongly disagree with your position. This is why every branch of Christianity also strongly disagrees with you.

Believers still sin but their lives aren’t characterized by sin. That is what John is clearly saying. Ignore him at your own peril.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The context of 1 John, the grammar used in the relevant verses, and the greater context of the NT all strongly disagree with your position. This is why every branch of Christianity also strongly disagrees with you.

Believers still sin but their lives aren’t characterized by sin. That is what John is clearly saying. Ignore him at your own peril.

You are saying there is sin in God.
I can't agree.

 

[Free]

You are saying there is sin in God.
I can't agree.

No, that is not at all what I’m saying. There is sin in the flesh. The NT makes that clear.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, that is not at all what I’m saying. There is sin in the flesh. The NT makes that clear.

The "flesh" is gone for those who are Christ's.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
And..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" (Col 2:11)
And..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Rom 8:9-10)

People who commit sin, (those walking in darkness), have not crucified the flesh, so still walk in it.
The Spirit of God doesn't dwell in them.
They are "none of His".

 

[citrus]

The goal in the Christian life is: glorify God, mature by abiding in christ Jesus and enjoy his presence.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The goal in the Christian life is: glorify God, mature by abiding in christ Jesus and enjoy his presence.

That is a good goal.
And one that is fully achievable too !

 

[Johann!@#]

Romans 6

WORD AND PHRASE STUDY

÷ROMANS 6:1-7

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ROMANS 6:1-7
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

6:1
NASB  "Are we to continue to sin that grace might increase"
NKJV, Peshitta  "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound"
NRSV  "Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound"
TEV  "That we should continue to live in sin
 so that God's grace will increase"
NJB  "Does it follow that we should remain in sin
 so as to let grace have greater hope"
REB  "Shall we persist in sin, so that there may be all the more grace"

This is a PRESENT ACTIVE SUBJUNCTIVE. It literally asks the question, are Christians "to abide with" or "to embrace" sin? This question looks back to Rom. 5:20. Paul used a hypothetical objector (diatribe) to deal with the potential misuse of grace (cf. 1 John 3:6,9; 5:18). God's grace and mercy are not meant to give a license for rebellious living.

Paul's gospel of a free salvation as the gift of God's grace through Christ (cf. Rom. 3:24; 5:15, 17; 6:23) raised many questions about life style righteousness. How does a free gift produce moral uprightness? Justification and sanctification must not be separated (cf. Matt. 7:24-27; Luke 8:21; 11:28; John 13:17; Rom. 2:13; James1:22-25; 2:14-26).

On this point let me quote F. F. Bruce in Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free,

"the baptism of Christians constituted the frontier between their old unregenerate existence and their new life in Christ: it marked their death to the old order, so that for a baptized Christian to go on in sin was as preposterous as it would be for an emancipated slave to remain in bondage to his former owner (cf. Rom. 6:1-4, 15-23) or for a widow to remain subject to 'the law of her husband'" (pp. 281-82, cf. Rom. 7:1-6).

In James S. Stewart's book, A Man in Christ, he writes:

"The locus classicus for all this side of the apostles' thought is to be found in Rom. 6. There Paul, with magnificent vigor and effort, drives home to heart and conscience the lesson that to be united with Jesus in His death means for the believer a complete and drastic break with sin" (pp. 187-88).

6:2 "may it never be"

This is a rare OPTATIVE form which was a grammatical MOOD or MODE used of a wish or prayer. It was Paul's stylistic way (i.e., Hebraic idiom) of answering a hypothetical objector. It expressed Paul's shock and horror at unbelieving mankind's misunderstanding and abuse of grace (cf. Rom. 3:4,6,31).

"we who died to sin"

This is an AORIST ACTIVE INDICATIVE, meaning "we have died." The SINGULAR "sin" is used so often throughout this chapter. It seems to refer to our "sin nature" inherited from Adam (cf. Rom. 5:12-21; 1 Cor. 15:21-22). Paul often uses the concept of death as imagery to show the believer's new relationship to Jesus. They are no longer subject to sin's mastery.

"still live in it" This is literally "walk."

This imagery was used to stress either our lifestyle faith (cf. Eph. 4:1; 5:2,15) or lifestyle sin (cf. Rom. 6:4; Eph. 4:17). Believers cannot be happy in sin!

6:3-4 "have been baptized. . .have been buried" These are both AORIST PASSIVE INDICATIVES. This grammatical form often emphasized a completed act accomplished by an outside agent, here the Spirit. They are parallel in this context.

SPECIAL TOPIC: BAPTISM

"into Christ Jesus"

The use of eis (into) parallels the Great Commission of Matt. 28:19, where new believers are baptized eis (into) the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The PREPOSITION is also used to describe the believers being baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ in 1 Cor. 12:13. Eis in this context is synonymous with en (in Christ) in Rom. 6:11, which is Paul's favorite way to denote believers. It is a LOCATIVE OF SPHERE. Believers live and move and have their being in Christ. These PREPOSITIONS express this intimate union, this sphere of fellowship, this vine and branch relationship. Believers identify with and join with Christ in His death (cf. Rom. 6:6; 8:17), in His resurrection (cf. Rom. 6:5), in His obedient service to God, and in His Kingdom!

SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRIST JESUS AS LORD

"into His death. . .we have been buried with Him"

Baptism by immersion illustrates death and burial (cf. Rom. 6:5 and Col. 2:12). Jesus used baptism as imagery for His own death (cf. Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50). The emphasis here is not a doctrine of baptism, but of the Christian's new, intimate relationship to Christ's death and burial. Believers identify with Christ's baptism, with His character, with His sacrifice, with His mission. Sin has no power over believers!

6:4 "we have been buried with Him through baptism into death" In this chapter, as is characteristic of all of Paul's writing, he uses many sun (with) compounds (e.g., three in Eph. 2:5-6).

sun + thaptō = co-buried, Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12; also note Rom. 6:8
sun + phuō = co-planted, Rom. 6:5
sun + stauroō = co-crucified, Rom. 6:6; Gal. 2:20
sun + zaō = co-exist, Rom. 6:8; 2 Tim. 2:11 (also has co-died and co-reign)

"so we too might walk in newness of life"

This is an AORIST ACTIVE SUBJUNCTIVE. The expected result of salvation is sanctification. Because believers have received God's grace through Christ and have been indwelt by the Spirit, their lives must be different. Our new life (zoē) does not bring us salvation, but it is the result of salvation (cf. Rom. 6:16, 19; 8:4; 13:13; 14:15; and Eph. 1:4; 2:8-9,10; James 2:14-26). This is not an either/or question, faith or works, but there is a sequential order.

ROMANS 6

www.freebiblecommentary.org

No-it is impossible to knowingly-continually living in the sphere/STATE of habitual sinning-indicative of a person who is not born again.

Johann.

 

[Johann!@#]

This contradicts the perseverance of the saints. (note: some don't believe in this doctrine)
This contradicts salvation is not by works. (Eph. 2:8-9)

I do-
PERSEVERANCE

The biblical doctrines related to the Christian life are difficult to explain because they are presented in typically eastern, dialectical pairs (see Special Topic: Eastern Literature [biblical paradoxes]). These pairs seem contradictory, yet both poles are biblical. Western Christians have tended to choose one truth and ignore or depreciate the opposite truth. Some examples:

1. Is salvation an initial decision to trust Christ or a life-time commitment to discipleship?

2. Is salvation an election by means of grace from a sovereign God or a faith and repentant response on mankind's part to a divine offer?

3. Is salvation, once received, impossible to lose, or is there a need for continual diligence?



The issue of perseverance has been contentious throughout church history. The problem starts with seemingly conflicting passages of the NT:

1. texts on assurance

a. statements of Jesus in John's Gospel (John 6:37; 10:28-29)

b. statements of Paul (Rom. 8:35-39; Eph. 1:13; 2:5,8-9; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 2 Thess. 3:3; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:18)

c. statements of Peter (1 Pet. 1:4-5)

2. texts on the need for perseverance

a. statements of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13)

b. statements of Jesus in John's Gospel (John 8:31; 15:4-10)

c. statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)

d. statements of the author of Hebrews (2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:11)

e. statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7)



Biblical salvation issues from the love, mercy, and grace of a sovereign Triune God. No human can be saved without the initiation of the Spirit (cf. John 6:44,65). Deity comes first and sets the agenda, but demands that humans must respond in faith and repentance, both initially and continually. God works with mankind in a covenant relationship. There are privileges and responsibilities!

Salvation is offered to all humans. Jesus' death dealt with the sin problem of the fallen creation! God has provided a way and wants all those made in His image to respond to His love and provision in Jesus.

If you would like to read more on this subject see

1. Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, Eerdmans, 1981 (pp. 348-365)

2. Howard Marshall, Kept by the Power of God, Bethany Fellowship, 1969

3. Robert Shank, Life in the Son, Westcott, 1961



The Bible addresses two different problems in this area: (1) taking assurance as a license to live fruitless, selfish lives or (2) encouraging those who struggle with ministry and personal sin. The problem is that the wrong groups are taking the wrong message and building theological systems on limited biblical passages. Some Christians desperately need the message of assurance, while others need the stern warnings of perseverance! Which group are you in?

There is a historical theological controversy involving Augustine versus Pelagius and Calvin versus Arminius (semi-Pelagian). The issue involves the question of salvation: if one is truly saved, must he persevere in faith and fruitfulness?

The Calvinists line up behind those biblical texts that assert God's sovereignty and keeping-power (John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:31-39; 1 John 5:13,18; 1 Pet. 1:3-5) and verb tenses like the perfect passive participles of Eph. 2:5,8.

The Arminians line up behind those biblical texts that warn believers to "hold on," "hold out," or "continue" (Matt. 10:22; 24:9-13; Mark 13:13; John 15:4-6; 1 Cor. 15:2; Gal. 6:9; Rev. 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7). I personally do not believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 are applicable, but many Arminians use them as a warning against apostasy. The parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 and Mark 4 addresses the issue of apparent belief, as does John 8:31-59. As Calvinists quote the perfect tense verbs used to describe salvation, the Arminians quote the present tense passages like 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15.

This is a perfect example of how theological systems abuse the proof-texting method of interpretation.

Usually a guiding principle or chief text is used to construct a theological grid by which all other texts are viewed. Be careful of grids from any source. They come from western logic, not revelation. The Bible is an eastern book. It presents truth in tension-filled, seemingly paradoxical pairs. Christians are meant to affirm both and live within the tension. The NT presents both the security of the believer and the demand for continuing faith and godliness. Christianity is an initial response of repentance and faith followed by a continuing response of repentance and faith. Salvation is not a product (a ticket to heaven or a fire insurance policy), but a relationship. It is a decision and discipleship. It is described in the NT in all verb tenses:

aorist (completed action), Acts 15:11; Rom. 8:24; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5
perfect (completed action with continuing results), Eph. 2:5,8
present (continuing action), 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15
future (future events or certain events), Rom. 5:8,10; 10:9; 1 Cor. 3:15; Phil. 1:28; 1 Thess. 5:8-9; Heb. 1:14; 9:28
Utley.

 

[GodsGrace]

WORD AND PHRASE STUDY

÷ROMANS 6:1-7

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: ROMANS 6:1-7
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

6:1
NASB  "Are we to continue to sin that grace might increase"
NKJV, Peshitta  "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound"
NRSV  "Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound"
TEV  "That we should continue to live in sin
 so that God's grace will increase"
NJB  "Does it follow that we should remain in sin
 so as to let grace have greater hope"
REB  "Shall we persist in sin, so that there may be all the more grace"

This is a PRESENT ACTIVE SUBJUNCTIVE. It literally asks the question, are Christians "to abide with" or "to embrace" sin? This question looks back to Rom. 5:20. Paul used a hypothetical objector (diatribe) to deal with the potential misuse of grace (cf. 1 John 3:6,9; 5:18). God's grace and mercy are not meant to give a license for rebellious living.

Paul's gospel of a free salvation as the gift of God's grace through Christ (cf. Rom. 3:24; 5:15, 17; 6:23) raised many questions about life style righteousness. How does a free gift produce moral uprightness? Justification and sanctification must not be separated (cf. Matt. 7:24-27; Luke 8:21; 11:28; John 13:17; Rom. 2:13; James1:22-25; 2:14-26).

On this point let me quote F. F. Bruce in Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free,

"the baptism of Christians constituted the frontier between their old unregenerate existence and their new life in Christ: it marked their death to the old order, so that for a baptized Christian to go on in sin was as preposterous as it would be for an emancipated slave to remain in bondage to his former owner (cf. Rom. 6:1-4, 15-23) or for a widow to remain subject to 'the law of her husband'" (pp. 281-82, cf. Rom. 7:1-6).

In James S. Stewart's book, A Man in Christ, he writes:

"The locus classicus for all this side of the apostles' thought is to be found in Rom. 6. There Paul, with magnificent vigor and effort, drives home to heart and conscience the lesson that to be united with Jesus in His death means for the believer a complete and drastic break with sin" (pp. 187-88).

6:2 "may it never be"

This is a rare OPTATIVE form which was a grammatical MOOD or MODE used of a wish or prayer. It was Paul's stylistic way (i.e., Hebraic idiom) of answering a hypothetical objector. It expressed Paul's shock and horror at unbelieving mankind's misunderstanding and abuse of grace (cf. Rom. 3:4,6,31).

"we who died to sin"

This is an AORIST ACTIVE INDICATIVE, meaning "we have died." The SINGULAR "sin" is used so often throughout this chapter. It seems to refer to our "sin nature" inherited from Adam (cf. Rom. 5:12-21; 1 Cor. 15:21-22). Paul often uses the concept of death as imagery to show the believer's new relationship to Jesus. They are no longer subject to sin's mastery.

"still live in it" This is literally "walk."

This imagery was used to stress either our lifestyle faith (cf. Eph. 4:1; 5:2,15) or lifestyle sin (cf. Rom. 6:4; Eph. 4:17). Believers cannot be happy in sin!

6:3-4 "have been baptized. . .have been buried" These are both AORIST PASSIVE INDICATIVES. This grammatical form often emphasized a completed act accomplished by an outside agent, here the Spirit. They are parallel in this context.

SPECIAL TOPIC: BAPTISM

"into Christ Jesus"

The use of eis (into) parallels the Great Commission of Matt. 28:19, where new believers are baptized eis (into) the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The PREPOSITION is also used to describe the believers being baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ in 1 Cor. 12:13. Eis in this context is synonymous with en (in Christ) in Rom. 6:11, which is Paul's favorite way to denote believers. It is a LOCATIVE OF SPHERE. Believers live and move and have their being in Christ. These PREPOSITIONS express this intimate union, this sphere of fellowship, this vine and branch relationship. Believers identify with and join with Christ in His death (cf. Rom. 6:6; 8:17), in His resurrection (cf. Rom. 6:5), in His obedient service to God, and in His Kingdom!

SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRIST JESUS AS LORD

"into His death. . .we have been buried with Him"

Baptism by immersion illustrates death and burial (cf. Rom. 6:5 and Col. 2:12). Jesus used baptism as imagery for His own death (cf. Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50). The emphasis here is not a doctrine of baptism, but of the Christian's new, intimate relationship to Christ's death and burial. Believers identify with Christ's baptism, with His character, with His sacrifice, with His mission. Sin has no power over believers!

6:4 "we have been buried with Him through baptism into death" In this chapter, as is characteristic of all of Paul's writing, he uses many sun (with) compounds (e.g., three in Eph. 2:5-6).

sun + thaptō = co-buried, Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12; also note Rom. 6:8
sun + phuō = co-planted, Rom. 6:5
sun + stauroō = co-crucified, Rom. 6:6; Gal. 2:20
sun + zaō = co-exist, Rom. 6:8; 2 Tim. 2:11 (also has co-died and co-reign)

"so we too might walk in newness of life"

This is an AORIST ACTIVE SUBJUNCTIVE. The expected result of salvation is sanctification. Because believers have received God's grace through Christ and have been indwelt by the Spirit, their lives must be different. Our new life (zoē) does not bring us salvation, but it is the result of salvation (cf. Rom. 6:16, 19; 8:4; 13:13; 14:15; and Eph. 1:4; 2:8-9,10; James 2:14-26). This is not an either/or question, faith or works, but there is a sequential order.

ROMANS 6

www.freebiblecommentary.org

No-it is impossible to knowingly-continually living in the sphere/STATE of habitual sinning-indicative of a person who is not born again.

Johann.

I'd say that you agree with Christian beliefs, as expressed by Paul and John too.
We are not to LIVE/WALK in sin, but we will, nonetheless, sin every now and then.

There is a difference between living in sin
and sinning.

You also correctly wrote about sanctification.
Our inner self, our heart, is to be transformed through the process of sanctification.

There are some persons that believe it is possible to NEVER sin again once a person becomes born again and is baptized.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I'd say that you agree with Christian beliefs, as expressed by Paul and John too.
We are not to LIVE/WALK in sin, but we will, nonetheless, sin every now and then.

There is a difference between living in sin
and sinning.

Can you put a number on that ?
How many acts of adultery does one need to commit to be called as adulterer ?

You also correctly wrote about sanctification.
Our inner self, our heart, is to be transformed through the process of sanctification.

It will be a never-ending process to those who see a difference between "sinning" and "living in sin".
I pray you don't believe that those reborn of God's seed are not sanctified .

There are some persons that believe it is possible to NEVER sin again once a person becomes born again and is baptized.

Thank you for mentioning that

 

[GodsGrace]

Can you put a number on that ?
How many acts of adultery does one need to commit to be called as adulterer ?

It will be a never-ending process to those who see a difference between "sinning" and "living in sin".
I pray you don't believe that those reborn of God's seed are not sanctified .

Thank you for mentioning that

Oh Hopeful.
John said what I believe.
I don't make up my own theology.

Put a number.
I'll bet both you and I sinned more than once today.
I'm pretty sure.

Acts of adultery.
Oh, so you think only the BIG sins are sin....!
Maybe this is the problem here.
What about all the "small" sins?
And do you know that to God EVERYTHING not meeting HIS target is a sin?

I believe those born again, as Jesus stated in John 3, are on a spiritual journey
and are becoming more and more sanctified.

But NO ONE on this earth goes without sinning...
NO ONE but Jesus and probably His mother, but that's another story.

And yes, some believe they never sin.
Probably because they don't understand HOW HOLY God is.

 

[07/07/07]

Put a number.
I'll bet both you and I sinned more than once today.
I'm pretty sure.

God refers to His people as "Saints", not "sinners". Why? Because they walk in His holiness and righteousness, not sin.

Revelation 8
[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
[4] And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
[5] And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

 

[Johann!@#]

I'd say that you agree with Christian beliefs, as expressed by Paul and John too.
We are not to LIVE/WALK in sin, but we will, nonetheless, sin every now and then.

There is a difference between living in sin
and sinning.

You also correctly wrote about sanctification.
Our inner self, our heart, is to be transformed through the process of sanctification.

There are some persons that believe it is possible to NEVER sin again once a person becomes born again and is baptized.

Correct-I don't hold to sinless perfection-believers may commit ACTS of sin whereas unbelievers remain in a STATE of never ending sinning.

ָלֶ֙כֶת֙
Prep-l+V-Qal-Inf

BDB Definition:
1) to go, walk, come
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to go, walk, come, depart, proceed, move, go away
1a2) to die, live, manner of life (figuratively)
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to walk
1b2) to walk (figuratively)
1c) (Hithpael)
1c1) to traverse
1c2) to walk about
1d) (Niphal) to lead, bring, lead away, carry, cause to walk
J.

 

[Johann!@#]

Oh Hopeful.
John said what I believe.
I don't make up my own theology.

Put a number.
I'll bet both you and I sinned more than once today.
I'm pretty sure.

Acts of adultery.
Oh, so you think only the BIG sins are sin....!
Maybe this is the problem here.
What about all the "small" sins?
And do you know that to God EVERYTHING not meeting HIS target is a sin?

I believe those born again, as Jesus stated in John 3, are on a spiritual journey
and are becoming more and more sanctified.

But NO ONE on this earth goes without sinning...
NO ONE but Jesus and probably His mother, but that's another story.

And yes, some believe they never sin.
Probably because they don't understand HOW HOLY God is.

The Italian Stallion concurs with you -and can give many Scriptural evidence-but I know the sinless perfection folk.
J.

 

[GodsGrace]

God refers to His people as "Saints", not "sinners". Why? Because they walk in His holiness and righteousness, not sin.

Revelation 8
[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
[4] And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
[5] And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

We are also referred to as Children of God...

1 John 3:1
1See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are.


So, you see, there's a misunderstanding here.

I didn't say I'm a sinner....
I stated that I sin.

If you can't tell the difference, then that is the problem.

 

[Johann!@#]

And yes, some believe they never sin.
Probably because they don't understand HOW HOLY God is.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.





"the blood of Jesus"

This refers to the sacrificial death of Christ (cf. Isa. 52:13-53:12; Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21). It is very similar to 1 John 2:2, "the atoning sacrifice (propitiation) for our sins." This is the thrust of John the Baptist's "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (cf. John 1:29). The innocent died on behalf of the guilty!

The early Gnostics denied Jesus' true humanity. John's use of "blood" reinforces Jesus' true humanity.

There is a Greek manuscript variable related to the name.

Jesus ‒ NASB, NRSV, NJB, REB, NET
Christ ‒ MSS א, B, C
Jesus Christ ‒ NKJV


"cleanses us from all sin"

This is a PRESENT ACTIVE INDICATIVE. The term "sin" is SINGULAR with no ARTICLE. This implies every kind of sin. Notice this verse is focusing on a one-time cleansing (salvation, 1 John 1:9), but on an ongoing cleansing (the Christian life). Both are part of the Christian experience (cf. John 13:10).

1:8 "If we say that we have no sin"

This is another THIRD CLASS CONDITIONAL SENTENCE. Sin is a spiritual reality in a fallen world, even for believers (cf. Romans 7; Eph. 4:14; 6:10-18). John's Gospel addresses this issue often (cf. John 9:41; 15:22,24; 19:11). This verse rejects all ancient and modern claims that deny individual moral responsibility.



"we are deceiving ourselves"

This Greek phrase refers to personal, willful rejection of truth, not ignorance.

"the truth is not in us"

The way to acceptance by a Holy God is not denial, but recognition of our sin and acceptance of His provision in Christ (cf. Rom. 3:21-31). "The truth" can refer to the message about Jesus or the person of Jesus (cf. John 14:6).



1:8,9 "If" These are both THIRD CLASS CONDITIONAL SENTENCES which means potential action.

1:9 "confess"

This is a compound Greek term from "to speak" and "the same." Believers continue to agree with God that they have violated His holiness (cf. Rom. 3:23). It is PRESENT TENSE, which implies ongoing action. Confession implies

a specific naming of sins (1 John 1:9)

a public admitting of sins (cf. Matt. 10:32; James 5:16)

a turning from specific sins (cf. Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5; Acts 19:18; James 5:16)

1 John uses this term quite often (cf. 1 John 1:9; 4:2,3,15; 2 John 7). Jesus' death is the means of forgiveness, but sinful mankind must respond and continue to respond in faith to be saved (cf. John 1:12; 3:16).

Special Topic: Confession/Profession

"our sins"

Notice the PLURAL. This refers to specific acts of sin.

"He is faithful"

This refers to God the Father (cf. Deut. 7:9; 32:4; Ps. 36:5; 40:10; 89:1,2,5,8; 92:2; 119:90; Isa. 49:7; Rom. 3:3; 1 Cor. 1:9; 10:13; 2 Cor. 1:18; 1 Thess. 5:24; 2 Tim. 2:13). God the Father's unchanging, merciful, faithful character is our surest hope! This phrase accentuates God's faithfulness to His Word (cf. Heb. 10:23;11:11). This may also refer to God's New Covenant promise made in Jer. 31:34, which promised the forgiveness of sins.



"and righteous"

This term is unusual in a context related to a holy God freely pardoning unholy people. However, this is theologically accurate because God takes our sins seriously, yet He has provided the means for our forgiveness in the substitutionary death of Christ (cf. Rom. 3:21-31).



"forgive . . . cleanse"

These are both AORIST ACTIVE SUBJUNCTIVES. These two terms are synonymous in this context; they refer both to the salvation of the lost and to the ongoing cleansing necessary for fellowship with God (i.e., when God forgives, God fogets, cf. Isa. 1:18; 38:17; 43:25; 44:22; Ps. 103:3,11-13; Mic. 7:19). The false teachers who denied the gospel, needed salvation. Believers who continue to commit acts of sin need restoration of fellowship. John seems to address the first group implicitly and the second explicitly.

1:10 "If we say" See note at 1 John 1:6.

"we have not sinned"

This is a PERFECT ACTIVE INDICATIVE which implies that one has never sinned in the past nor in the present. The term "sinned" is SINGULAR and refers to sin in general. The Greek term means "to miss the mark." This means that sin is both the commission and the omission of the things revealed in God's Word. The false teachers claimed salvation was related only to knowledge, not to life.

"we make Him a liar"

The gospel is based on the sinfulness of all mankind (cf. Rom. 3:9-18,23; 5:1; 11:32). Either God (cf. Rom. 3:4) or those who claim sinlessness, is lying.
Utley.

J.