Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[Hopeful]

Now our responsibility is to walk according to the new nature and deny the flesh. But when you fail because of weakness, or ignorance, or immaturity, the completed but ongoing intercessory ministry of Christ and his sacrifice that you believe in is there to forgive and cleanse and keep you at peace with God.

When you fail?
Don't you have faith that we will never be tempted above that which we can handle? (1 Cor 12:13)
Where is the evidence of the Holy Ghost in one who fails?
Where is the evidence of the new creature, nature, Spirit, in one who fails?
Failers are unbelievers.

That is as long as we keep believing. Whether or not a true believer can stop believing is something each of us has to settle in our own minds. But one thing we do know for sure, the Bible tells us to keep believing because the promise is sure, and that we will not remain in the promise if we stop believing and let the word slip from our hearts.

I rejoice that God provides all we need to keep it from happening.
Or is using the tools God gives His children so their faith doesn't cease another one of the non-Law works for salvation?

 

[Hopeful]

You sin everyday.

You are wrong.
God's seed cannot bring forth liars, adulterers, murderers, or thieves.

Thankfully, yesterday, today, and tomorrow's sins were paid for on the cross.

Thankfully, the gift of repentance from sin can be permanent.

 

[Hopeful]

Not at all. What it does is put the onus (and my focus) for holy living in the right place: God.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
Romans 8:13-14
Galatians 5:16, 25
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
1 Peter 5:10
Jude 1:24-25

God makes me godly; I can only produce more of myself. Like begets like, after all. As well, understanding correctly the basis upon which I'm saved magnifies in me the love and grace of God, in so doing expanding my love for Him (1 John 4:16-19) and my gratefulness (2 Corinthians 9:15).

Alright !

In any case, as I've pointed out from Scripture, there are examples of born-again believers willfully sinning

Well wait a second, doesn't that nullify everything you just wrote above?
Seed bearing after itself and all?

and being sharply upbraided for doing so but never being told their sin had ejected them from God's family and kingdom. And this is because the believer's salvation is not in their good deeds, in their powers of determination and self-discipline, but in the Person of Christ, into whom the believer is "baptized" and thus made acceptable to God. And since Christ is always acceptable to God, those in him are likewise accepted by God. This doesn't mean that the accepted person necessarily enjoys fellowship with God; many born-again believers don't. But being accepted by God on the basis of being in Christ (Ephesians 1:1-13) does mean that my salvation is as secure and eternal as God's acceptance of Christ, which is utterly inviolable.

Their sin manifested from whom they were born.
It wasn't from God's seed.

 

[Hopeful]

Not when we come to realize we don't own anything.

So true.
Sometimes conversion will cost what we were "borrowing".

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, this is what a born again experience looks like; the old nature of sin is done away with and a new nature of righteousness and holiness come forth.

Ephesians 4
[21] If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[22] That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; [23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (KJV)

Colossians 3
[4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: (KJV)

Amen !

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When you fail?

16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other, so that you do not do what you want.

And so we see, as children growing up and maturing into the image and stature of Christ (not starting out there) we will in fact sometimes not walk by the Spirit and not do what we as born again Christians want to do.

Don't you have faith that we will never be tempted above that which we can handle? (1 Cor 12:13)

Of course, you mean 1 Corinthians 10:13

12So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall. 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide an escape, so that you can stand up under it.

First, let's notice that there is in fact something that you as a born again person can not bear, showing us that being born again does not mean you are incapable of sinning as you insist. So, what your erroneous 'sinless perfection' theology really should be teaching is that you're only perfectly sinless because God won't let you face the particular temptation you as a born again person will not be able to resist, not that you by virtue of being a new creation are incapable of sinning.

But anyway, what Paul is telling us is that God provides the way out for the temptations he has allowed us to face, knowing we can bear them. And so, by faith, we are to resist the temptation that we know we can bear (we know because God is allowing us to be tempted by it), because God has provided a way to resist it. But as I showed above, Paul says we're not always going to do that. The whole counsel of scripture shows us that we don't always do that because we are learning to do that, not starting out being able to do that all the time. And so our failure is not a failure of God's faithfulness, but a failure of us to take the way out he has provided from temptation because of ignorance, or immaturity.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where is the evidence of the Holy Ghost in one who fails?

The evidence that he is born again is the fact that he does not live in that sin as a matter of a deliberate and willful lifestyle and that he comes back after his failure.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Failers are unbelievers.

No, deserters are unbelievers.

I rejoice that God provides all we need to keep it from happening.

He does provide that. But as growing, maturing children of God we don't always avail ourselves of what he has provided.

Or is using the tools God gives His children so their faith doesn't cease another one of the non-Law works for salvation?

No one is justified by doing righteous things. There is no righteous work that you can do that will make you righteous. The only way to become righteous, and thus saved, is to believe and trust in God's promise that he will remove the guilt of your unrighteousness through forgiveness and give you a righteousness outside of yourself (for you have none). Faith in God's promise that he will do that is the ONLY way to become righteous, and thus saved. You do not become righteous by doing righteous things.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Earn?
If obedience is cause for reward, then, by permanently turning from sin, (repentance), and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, I was availed eternal life.
Those who don't turn from sin, or get their past sins washed away by the blood of Christ, won't be saved.

Obedience is cause for reward, but not the reward of justification (being made righteous). That only happens by the mercy of God's forgiveness and the imputation of his righteousness as a free gift of his grace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

My faith cost me my family and all my old friends.
That is expensive.

Yes, having faith is very costly, but you were not made righteous by paying that cost. Only the forgiveness of God and the imputation of God's righteousness, received by faith (not works), can make you righteous.

After being made righteous by faith in God's redemption, that is when you pay the sometimes very costly price of discipleship, not justification. Jesus paid the price for your justification, not you. And it does not need to be paid again once it is applied to your account when you first believe. The obedience of faith is not payment toward justification. The blood of Christ is the payment for justification. And faith is what secures it on your behalf, not your works of obedience.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The law of Christ, His law, is written on our heart.

Not the law of Moses.

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jeremiah 31:33



JLB

I know that but the Law of Christ which is the Law of the Spirit of Christ (He wrote the Law) which is the Law of Moses is only written in the heart-life of those to be saved. THAT'S HOW they are saved. By the word of God, Peter said.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The law of Moses was abolished on the cross, as it was what divided Jew from Gentile thus creating enmity.

Paul is making a legal argument to help integrate the Jewish and Gentile church community in Rome.

I understand that. But he is also teaching some things that show God and man divided.

What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. Romans 3:1

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
Romans 3:9

That is the mindset Paul brings to the book of Romans which is contextually framed with the concept of “obedience of faith”.

The Jew viewing the Gentile community as “lawless”, while at the same time the Jews had the propensity to try and bring the Gentiles under the law of Moses which required physical circumcision as well and keeping the law of Moses.

Both were a huge problem. Both had to be addressed with balance.

So when we read…

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Romans 3:31

The law of faith “upholds” (balances on the scale) the law of Moses in that they both have the same “weight” on the scales.

The common weight of balance that both the law of faith and the law carry is obedience.

The law required obedience to all or otherwise the person under the law was cursed.

Likewise the law of faith also requires obedience which is why Paul calls it the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26






JLB

The law of Christ, not the law of Moses.


JLB

If you believe ONLY that then I suppose you don't have to have no other Gods before you or are not under the Law that states to not take the Name of God is vain.

Understand, these commands are still in effect. But being saved already they are not for our salvation but our relationship in the flesh.
Being that Christ fulfilled every Law of God and He is in us, God sees us as having fuklfilled the Law because of Christ. But we still have to obey the Law of God, which is the Law of Christ ["Christ = anointing = Spirit] who wrote the Law. So, the Law of Christ IS the Law of Moses.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You are wrong.
God's seed cannot bring forth liars, adulterers, murderers, or thieves.

Thankfully, the gift of repentance from sin can be permanent.

Did you sin yesterday? Today?

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 Jn. 1:8–10.

So, make God a liar and tell me you haven't sinned and don't sin.

 

[jeremiah1five]

If you want to quote Scripture, you should make sure you're quoting in context. Taking a single verse to prove (false) doctrine is an excellent example of eisegesis.

Here is that verse in context: "Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. Through what kind of law? That of works? No, rather through the law of faith. For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of gentiles also? Yes, of gentiles also, since God is one, and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we then overthrow the law through this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Romnns 7:27-31

And Romans 4:13-15, "For the promise that he would inherit the world did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there transgression."

And Romans 7:4-6, "In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."

The issue is JUSTIFICATION not living day to day in obedience to the Law. He's talking about salvation.

And get yourself a translation that does not use words that have nothing to do with the original texts. ALL new-age modern translations come from the Revised Version of Westcott and Hort. They used Greek texts that were corrupt and boo boo.

Use the Received Text. KJV.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

which is the Law of Moses is only written in the heart-life of those to be saved. THAT'S HOW they are saved.

Do you mean makes them a saved person, or saves them in the sense that their obedience shows them to be a saved person worthy to enter into the kingdom at the end of the age?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Did you sin yesterday? Today?

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 Jn. 1:8–10.

So, make God a liar and tell me you haven't sinned and don't sin.

He claims he has not sinned since becoming a believer 16 years ago. He says if he does, even once, that will show him to not be a fig tree, but rather a thorn bush who was never born again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

permanently turning from sin, (repentance)

Repentance is a renunciation of sin, not the absence of sin. It's a change of mind about sin. The person who has changed their mind about sin is exhorted to then live a life commensurate with that change of mind:

20First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance. Acts 26:20

Of course, this is the same Paul who said we aren't always going to do that because of the presence of the flesh (Galatians 5:17).

 

[jaybo]

The issue is JUSTIFICATION not living day to day in obedience to the Law. He's talking about salvation.

And get yourself a translation that does not use words that have nothing to do with the original texts. ALL new-age modern translations come from the Revised Version of Westcott and Hort. They used Greek texts that were corrupt and boo boo.

Use the Received Text. KJV.

LOL!!! Get yourself a translation that is faithful to the source texts and written in the language that you use yourself. Modern translations are far, far better than a translation created 400+ year ago from a limited set of sources to codify a secular king's idea of what Protestantism should be (and in the process glorify him).

No modern translators use Westcott and Hort. That is a myth! They use the best sources available and use the best translation techniques to produce the excellent translations that we have today.

I suggest that you do some research to find out the reality of what you are discussing, and get rid of your King James!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you want to quote Scripture, you should make sure you're quoting in context. Taking a single verse to prove (false) doctrine is an excellent example of eisegesis.

Here is that verse in context: "Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. Through what kind of law? That of works? No, rather through the law of faith. For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of gentiles also? Yes, of gentiles also, since God is one, and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we then overthrow the law through this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Romnns 7:27-31

And Romans 4:13-15, "For the promise that he would inherit the world did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there transgression."

And Romans 7:4-6, "In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."

All of this does not mean we have no obligation to uphold the righteousness of the law. What it means is we don't uphold the law for the purpose of becoming righteous.

Ultimately, not upholding the righteousness of the law, summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself (Romans 13:9-10, Leviticus 19:18), shows you do not have the righteousness that is from God. You can not separate the obedience of righteousness from the righteousness we have received via the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tenchi]

Well wait a second, doesn't that nullify everything you just wrote above?
Seed bearing after itself and all?

No. Why would it? Does every apple tree bear apples perfectly, free of worms, or the deformity of disease, or the stunting effects of poor soil and lack of moisture? No. But even the malnourished, stunted apple tree, riddled with damaging insects and producing little, if any, fruit, is STILL an apple tree. So, too, the born-again believer who, due to simple spiritual immaturity, and/or bad teaching, and/or being starved of Christian fellowship and the "water" of the word, and/or being plagued by besetting sins, bears little, if any, spiritual fruit. Though he be a fractious, willfully-sinful "carnal babe in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1); though he ought to be a teacher of the meat of the word but is capable only of ingesting "milk" (Hebrews 5:11-14); though he is "weak in the faith," excessively careful about trivial matters (Romans 14:1-2), the Christian man (or woman) is STILL a genuinely-redeemed child of God.

Their sin manifested from whom they were born.
It wasn't from God's seed.

This is silly. See above.

Monkeys fall from trees; whales beach on the seashore; dogs are afraid of cats; birds fly into buildings. We don't think, though, that these out-of-character behaviors undo the basic nature of these creatures. Likewise, the Christian who sins. They are a "work in progress" (Ephesians 2:21, 4:15; 1 Peter 2:2; 2 Peter 3:18; 1 Corinthians 3:6-7; Colossians 2:19) being changed over time by the power of the Holy Spirit, made more and more like Christ. Like the baby monkey that can do little but cling to its mother, or the baby whale who has to be lifted to the surface of the ocean by its mother in order to take its first breath, or the puppy who is able only to suckle at its mother's teat and sleep, the new, or spiritually-immature, believer is a spiritual infant, in need of enormous support (as all infants are) in the nascent stages of their spiritual walk with God, stumbling and staggering, and falling down, too, but growing at the same time, nonetheless. What a horrible, evil thing it is to say to these spiritual "babes" that they are not really saved, that their inevitable stumbling and falling is proof-positive that they are not God's. Few things could be more damaging to their growth spiritually than to have such a notion thrown at them that leaves them in a perennial state of fear and uncertainty.

And the atrocious hypocrisy in the sinless-perfection stuff is also appalling, as is the inevitably-attached false doctrine of works-salvation. No one, deep down, thinks they are truly sinlessly-perfect. In fact, what "sinless perfection" truly is remains a mystery to us all. As holy and righteous as we think we are, the more God comes into clear view in our minds and hearts, the farther from His amazing holiness we see that we are! What incredible hubris, then, to propose that one has attained to His perfect holiness! Wow.

1 John 1:8-10 (NASB)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.