Here's a passage to support 2 Cor. 5:21
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, 2 Pet. 1:4.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, 2 Pet. 1:4.
Tenchi
Member
Not at all. What it does is put the onus (and my focus) for holy living in the right place: God.
Philippians 1:6
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
Romans 8:13-14
Galatians 5:16, 25
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
1 Peter 5:10
Jude 1:24-25
God makes me godly; I can only produce more of myself. Like begets like, after all. As well, understanding correctly the basis upon which I'm saved magnifies in me the love and grace of God, in so doing expanding my love for Him (1 John 4:16-19) and my gratefulness (2 Corinthians 9:15).
In any case, as I've pointed out from Scripture, there are examples of born-again believers willfully sinning and being sharply upbraided for doing so but never being told their sin had ejected them from God's family and kingdom. And this is because the believer's salvation is not in their good deeds, in their powers of determination and self-discipline, but in the Person of Christ, into whom the believer is "baptized" and thus made acceptable to God. And since Christ is always acceptable to God, those in him are likewise accepted by God. This doesn't mean that the accepted person necessarily enjoys fellowship with God; many born-again believers don't. But being accepted by God on the basis of being in Christ (Ephesians 1:1-13) does mean that my salvation is as secure and eternal as God's acceptance of Christ, which is utterly inviolable.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Not when we come to realize we don't own anything.
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3
Do you find it burdensome to keep His commandments?
Is it a huge burden for you to restrain yourself from committing adultery with your neighbors wife?
Is it burdensome for you to not lie?
Jesus admonished us to remain “in Him”.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
Here is how we are instructed to remain “in Christ”.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
JLB
You appear to be teaching a Jesus that does not expect a Holy standard from His followers. Jesus is indeed wonderful, gracious, merciful, loving and kind -- but those attributes do not negate His expectation of righteousness and holiness for those who will enter into the Kingdom of God. The Saints of God will have their garments washed in the blood and made white; nothing defiled will enter in.
Revelation 22
[12] And, behold, I [Jesus] come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
[13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (KJV)
Revelation 21
[27] And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. (KJV)
So, what all defiles a man?
Mark 7
[20] And he [Jesus] said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
[21] For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
[22] Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
[23] All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. (KJV)
Yes, this is what a born again experience looks like; the old nature of sin is done away with and a new nature of righteousness and holiness come forth.
Ephesians 4
[21] If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[22] That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; [23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (KJV)
Colossians 3
[4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: (KJV)
Even the great Paul sinned daily while in this body of this death.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom. 7:7.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom. 7:21–24.
I sin daily, you sin daily, yet ALL these sins past, present, and future were paid for at the cross of Christ. Salvation is past, present, and future just as Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for ever:
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb. 13:8.
This body of this death is our flesh. It hasn't been redeemed yet. That occurs at the twinkle, twinkle of His eye. Still yet future.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Cor. 15:51–55.
Death is the penalty for sin. If people still die then sin is the cause. Did you know that? BUT why do we still die IF sin was paid for, eh? A seeming paradox unless you know the answer. But that's a question for another thread.
You have misinterpreted Romans 7, a chapter in which Paul described his life under the Law and how he could not overcome sin. This chapter is not Paul's experience when under grace. Romans 8 is his experience under grace.
Romans 8
[1] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
[12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
[13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
[14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
So, what are the deeds of the body that will cause spiritual death and hell? Well, my previous posts have mentioned some and here are more.
Galatians 5
[19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Romans 7 Explained
Paul and Christians today are STILL under the Law.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom. 3:31.
So, in faith the Law of Moses is established.
Now, tell me how this is done if you can?
And no videos, please.
You can remain under the Law if you want, but I thank God for His grace.
Titus 2
[11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
[13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (KJV)
Are you serious?
Romans 7:4-6, " In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."
Then I suppose you don't have to have no other gods before you and its OK for you to take the Name of the Lord in vain.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom. 3:31.
DO YOU make void the Law?
Or now that Christians are Christians they establish the Law?
God sees us through the finished work of Christ who fulfilled EVERY precept of the Law. Thus, God sees us as having obeyed every precept of the Law.
WE STILL HAVE TO HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE US, RIGHT?
OR do you make VOID the Law?
The law of Christ, His law, is written on our heart.
Not the law of Moses.
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jeremiah 31:33
JLB
If you want to quote Scripture, you should make sure you're quoting in context. Taking a single verse to prove (false) doctrine is an excellent example of eisegesis.
Here is that verse in context: "Then what becomes of boasting? It is excluded. Through what kind of law? That of works? No, rather through the law of faith. For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of gentiles also? Yes, of gentiles also, since God is one, and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we then overthrow the law through this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Romnns 7:27-31
And Romans 4:13-15, "For the promise that he would inherit the world did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there transgression."
And Romans 7:4-6, "In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."
The law of Moses was abolished on the cross, as it was what divided Jew from Gentile thus creating enmity.
Paul is making a legal argument to help integrate the Jewish and Gentile church community in Rome.
What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. Romans 3:1
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
Romans 3:9
That is the mindset Paul brings to the book of Romans which is contextually framed with the concept of “obedience of faith”.
The Jew viewing the Gentile community as “lawless”, while at the same time the Jews had the propensity to try and bring the Gentiles under the law of Moses which required physical circumcision as well and keeping the law of Moses.
Both were a huge problem. Both had to be addressed with balance.
So when we read…
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Romans 3:31
The law of faith “upholds” (balances on the scale) the law of Moses in that they both have the same “weight” on the scales.
The common weight of balance that both the law of faith and the law carry is obedience.
The law required obedience to all or otherwise the person under the law was cursed.
Likewise the law of faith also requires obedience which is why Paul calls it the obedience of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
JLB
Tenchi
Member
No. Should it be? The love of God constrains me, and the power of the Holy Spirit enables me, so how can obeying God be a burden?
It seems you haven't considered that this verse may not say what you think it says. But this is what happens when one comes to the text of the Bible with a saved-and-lost perspective already in hand. Two alternative views on John 15:6 are:
1.) Verse 6 refers to a contrasting parallel figure to the "branch" in the "Vine": the lost person who is not in the Vine. Though a creature created by Christ - a branch - he is "cast out," in his unregenerate state spiritually detached from his Maker and thus made useless, good for nothing, like dead wood used for a fire. John 15:4-5, then, describe the saved person and verse 6 describes the unsaved person, not a saved person who becomes a lost one.
2.) Verse 6 refers, not to a believer who has lost his salvation, but merely to a believer who has ceased to be spiritually fruitful. The verse emphasizes the uselessness of a branch that is supposed to be spiritually fruit-bearing but is not. Rather than the "throw them into the fire, and they are burned" referring to hell, the fitness of the branch only for fuel for a fire speaks to its total spiritual uselessness, as does Ezekiel 15:1-6, to which Christ may be referring obliquely in John 15:6.
No, you are mistaking effect for cause, here. The effect of abiding in Him (Christ) is obedience; the means of abiding in Christ is not, however. What John is saying here is akin to someone saying, "He who drives a police car is a member of the police force." This is not to say that driving a police car is the means to being a member of the police force but merely the effect, or consequence, of being such a member.
In actuality, it is the Holy Spirit who enables the believer to properly obey God. And this is why, in 1 John 3:24 (and in 1 John 4:13) the apostle John makes the indwelling Spirit, not obedience, the means of knowing whether or not one is truly saved. There is no salvation apart from the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, coming to reside within a person. If he is not there, the person is still "dead in trespasses and sins."
Obedience, on the other hand, can be a pretense, the mask of the religious hypocrite, and a religious "club" these hypocrites often use to beat the flock of God. The Pharisees were of this sort, professionally obedient to God's law, known for their careful observance of His commands, even making a bunch of their own rules, too (as religious hypocrites usually do). But Jesus said their heart were far from God and that they were "sons of hell" and "white-washed tombs full of dead men's bones." No, obedience cannot be, then, the primary litmus test of genuine spiritual regeneration; the transforming work of the indwelling Holy Spirit is.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
2 Corinthians 3:18 (NASB)
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Ephesians 3:16 (NASB)
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
Romans 8:13 (NASB)
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
(See also: John 16:8; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16; Galatians 5:22-23)
Earn?
If obedience is cause for reward, then, by permanently turning from sin, (repentance), and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, I was availed eternal life.
Those who don't turn from sin, or get their past sins washed away by the blood of Christ, won't be saved.
My faith cost me my family and all my old friends.
That is expensive.